On January 07 2017 03:23 Dazed_Spy wrote: Are you supposed to get the +50 energy upgrade on science vessels, if your going bio/sk style late game in tvz?
You can of course, if you can afford it, sounds like a good investment to have more irradiates faster if you get a couple or lots of vessels.
First things first though. Generally you don't have the gas for it with other investments lined up like vessels+irradiate+tanks+siege+weapon/armor upgrades+vulture upgrades+additional factories+another starport maybe....
But as the game goes on... why not?
PS: oh, if you go bio/sk, of course, get it right after irradiate and bio-upgrades or asap after your 2nd starport, but don't cut vessel-production for it. Better to have more vessels piling up energy over time than few vessels with more energy, imo.
If we consider standart games, then it's like this: PvT always and ASAP — otherwise your dragoons die to mines, as they move faster than an unupgraded observer PvZ most of the time, if not to say always. Just later on. Easier to dodge scourge/hydra. +sometimes you will need detection badly in a certain place — say, lurkers killed cannons at your expo, or smth like this. It's painful to watch them float slowly while your nexus is going down PvP would get obs speed as well, but it's less urgent. But all in all faster observers are sure better to have.
edit: sight ugh never for a particular reason. When floated resources occasionally
for obs I think sight is much better than speed pvz. honestly don't think I've gotten speed in any of the previous 1000 pvz games I've played, and I don't think I lost a single one of those games due to my observers moving too slowly, either. Sight however is great vs spore+lurker. Pvt you want speed, but it's not something I upgrade particularly fast - I think it's largely a mistake to get it before you start your first arbiter, for example. (until this point, you can normally babysit your army quite successfully. )
as for the 50 energy upgrade for vessels, if you are really fucking good there might be some point to it. My experience however is that when terran players go sk, they are not able to spend the energy they have on their vessels. When I go sk, if I get up to 8+ vessels, I normally have plenty irradiates left over after battles are over. But I mean, I also usually float a bunch of resources, and if you're floating resources it's rarely bad to spend them, even if on something mildly useless. I'd argue the main benefit is that new vessels get their first irradiate faster - each vessel having 3 rather than 2 irradiates however makes little difference.
I remember the fantasy build in tvp used to open with a port right after you expanded through a siege expand-- is there anything unsafe or inefficient about doing a quick port followup to a mine expand?
If you scouted that P also did go for a 1 Gate Core Expand, I don't think it is unsafe to go port after FD or vulture expand. It is only unsafe vs something like 2 Gate obs.
Does anybody know of any original artworks for the heroes of SC1 and BW? I want to see what kerrigan, raynor, etc were looking like in SC1 before they were changed for SC2. But it is suprisingly difficult to find any artworks for that.
If original artworks can not be found I am also taking fan-made artworks.
Thanks!
Edit: Just realized this probably should have been in general discussion, no?
Anyone got any ideas how to deal with terrans (in PvT) which just sit one 2-3 bases, wait till 200/200 and just go out and destroy everything? I can have 5-6 bases but terran limit with upgrades destroys everything. Recalls could be an option but what if i recall and terran just ,,doesn't care" and go kill everything - main, exp etc.?
Anyone got any ideas how to deal with terrans (in PvT) which just sit one 2-3 bases, wait till 200/200 and just go out and destroy everything? I can have 5-6 bases but terran limit with upgrades destroys everything. Recalls could be an option but what if i recall and terran just ,,doesn't care" and go kill everything - main, exp etc.?
The idea is to take as many bases as possible and build a lot of gateways while he's turtling. Then trade and remax, and trade again. Normally, terran 200/200 wins protoss 200/200, so what you do is outexpand him, and trade, trade, trade... When you are 200/200, keep building gateways in both mains and check if he is moving out. Try to catch him en route.
Anyone got any ideas how to deal with terrans (in PvT) which just sit one 2-3 bases, wait till 200/200 and just go out and destroy everything? I can have 5-6 bases but terran limit with upgrades destroys everything. Recalls could be an option but what if i recall and terran just ,,doesn't care" and go kill everything - main, exp etc.?
The idea is to take as many bases as possible and build a lot of gateways while he's turtling. Then trade and remax, and trade again. Normally, terran 200/200 wins protoss 200/200, so what you do is outexpand him, and trade, trade, trade... When you are 200/200, keep building gateways in both mains and check if he is moving out. Try to catch him en route.
Just to add a little bit to what has been said. By spreading your bases out you are forcing terrans to spread its army to kill multiple bases at the same time. And we know that terran army is much weaker when fighting in small groups. DTs are also very useful at that situation as it can be veyr hard for terrans to keep track of everything...
one key element is that you have to build gateways in at least two different locations. And a lot of it is about taking the right engagements. You're not gonna be cost-efficient, but always try to engage before he has properly set up. If he pushes really slowly (making that impossible), you want to spread his army as thin as possible, attack less defended positions, and backstab his main if possible. (with recalls or without)
Like, he might still just go for the jugular and kill your main base. But he does lose some units doing that - and as long as you have gateways set up in a different base as well, him killing your base and you killing his base is a really terrible trade for him. Then after he no longer has good production, you just try to delay and delay as much as you can.
Why do pros never use recalls to retreat successful recalls? By which I mean either:
1. Recalling into the main, killing some SCVs/buildings/production but then recalling back with a second arbiter at home when the primary army turns up? As it is the Protoss just seems to take a terrible trade at the end of a recall which they could avoid (and which they try to balance out with damage before the Terran army returns); or 2. Recalling into an outlying base, sniping the CC, recalling home so the Terran doesn't get to mitigate their loss with a good trade against the (modest) Protoss force.
Even in late game, when pros have loads of arbiters around, they never do this. Sometimes they recall an arbiter with the army to stasis and extend the fight, but they never leave the second arbiter at home to retreat when the battle turns against them.
First of all, it sounds like a very situational, but also very good move in those situations. Forcing Terran to retreat, doing damage, and then warping out.
I think there is no 'hard' reason why they don't do it.
One reason is that, generally, it's just very easy for Protoss to rebuild those 10-20 units in the lategame (and save the mana for another stasis). It's better to just micro that army a bit to force Terran really far back into his main. Just achieving that is worth the resources. You might not reach this goal if you recall too early, but a later recall might be wasted on few units, so just leave em there.
Oftentimes the units are spread out in the main, and recollecting them would be a waste of APM and it would hinder the units from doing even more damage in the main.
Actually, these trades are oftentimes not too bad for Protoss, as Terran's forces have to walk up the ramp single-file. I personally cannot think of many situations where I'd have found it favorable to recall an army out again (and precisely when Protoss has enough arbiters to use another recall: they oftentimes don't have to care about losing 10-15 units like that).
I think overall it's just more reliable (you could also say 'easier' or more efficient) to spend your apm on other things, like macro, army movement on the field, attacks on expansions while Terran is occupied in the main.
On January 08 2017 07:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: for obs I think sight is much better than speed pvz. honestly don't think I've gotten speed in any of the previous 1000 pvz games I've played, and I don't think I lost a single one of those games due to my observers moving too slowly, either. Sight however is great vs spore+lurker. Pvt you want speed, but it's not something I upgrade particularly fast - I think it's largely a mistake to get it before you start your first arbiter, for example. (until this point, you can normally babysit your army quite successfully. )
as for the 50 energy upgrade for vessels, if you are really fucking good there might be some point to it. My experience however is that when terran players go sk, they are not able to spend the energy they have on their vessels. When I go sk, if I get up to 8+ vessels, I normally have plenty irradiates left over after battles are over. But I mean, I also usually float a bunch of resources, and if you're floating resources it's rarely bad to spend them, even if on something mildly useless. I'd argue the main benefit is that new vessels get their first irradiate faster - each vessel having 3 rather than 2 irradiates however makes little difference.
I don't agree with that. I never have enough energy on vessels as you can do matrix on m&m (especially firebat) / matrix on dropships / eraser / flying around the map and irradiating everything you can. I always do that when can afford it, and that is relatively quickly, most likely before your 3rd base and def. at the stage you have 2 starport and 5-7 baracks + 1 fact. 2 base SK terran will have too much gas as you only produce vessel and upgr that take gas, so it's easy to afford the upgrade quickly. From pure cost efficiency perspective it's enough if you get 1 extra irradiate on a lurker to get it compensated , and that becomes a fact when you produce 6 vessels with an upgrade. So from purely practical point of view I would usually add it after making around 4 vessels. (2 rounds from starport)
Just one final remark, it's always nice to have ready-to-irradiate vessels at your natural few seconds after production rather than waiting until they charge. :-)
PS. Recently also seen Flash doing it very quickly just to prove my point. :D
flash definitely belongs in the really fucking good category, you might just be there as well. I do however think that for mostly everyone who has to ask the question, they're probably not good enough to benefit from prioritizing it.
if you use a bunch of matrix which to be fair you should, it's a bit easier though. But like, sure, if you already have 2 starports and double ebay and other upgrades going, then I don't have any problems with getting energy upgrade too.
In many build-orders it is said about taking a third base, also one may often hear "delay terran's third", etc. So is mineral-only a third base? Or should one take the third with gas? @CB or Electric Circuit. It confuses me a bit.
Normally the builds (like Flash double armory build, generally 3base builds) refer to a 3rd base that has gas, like on "normal" maps, FS et al where they're relatively easy to garb. Terran needs 3 gas to roll, at least as long as they're still investing heavily into more factories and tech like armor/attack-upgrades, EMP, gol range.
On maps like CB or EC, there is the option of grabbing a mineral third if the gas-3rd is harder to take (be it because of the map-structure or the opponents aggressive play forcing you to play it save and not spread out so much). This can mean that a) you plan to go for a vulture-heavy timing (without vessels and not more than +1 attack) to kill the opponent or to allow you to take your gas-4th, or b) you plan to take the 4th soon after (generally in reaction to a Protoss' quick 4th or as soon as it's safe to do so). You can opt for a lot of vulture harrass in this scenario as you have excess minerals.
I've seen at least one older game where Flash went for a fast mineral-3rd to perform a very specific push, I think 8-10 factories and only 2-3 with addons.
edit:
Not really what you asked for, but I looked up some games where Flash goes fast mineral 3rd. He grabs them very early, knowing exactly what he can get away with of course. Then he can decide to spend the mineral on a lot of factories quickly (without addons, for vults) or on a relatively fast 4th.
Here the game I mentioned, vs Shuttle: Flash goes for a fast mineral-only and a 6fact (one with addon) +1 push. He adds more facts soon.
Another example (vs Jaehoon) of Flash grabbing a fast mineral 3rd because he sees the chance, then as the income kicks in he can go for aggression (vs carriers).
And finally, to counter a 12nex, going for a fast hidden mineral-3rd while occupying his opponent with mines, then grabbing a fast 4th. This is very risky, but not for Flash I guess, not vs Pure.
EPT
I do however think that for mostly everyone who has to ask the question, they're probably not good enough to benefit from prioritizing it. 
