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On January 14 2015 03:30 G5 wrote:
I'd say USA is definitely #2. Think of how many foreign pros (actually living in a Korean team house / on a Korean Pro Team) there were... I think this is a better indication of where the talent pool is as opposed to WCG results since WCG relied so much on when you hit a Korean. I might miss some but off the top of my head: Grrrr.... (CAN), Legionnaire (AUS), ElKy (FRA), Smuft (CAN), Rekrul (USA), Assem (USA), IdrA (USA), NoNy (USA), Draco (POL), Ret (NET). There are far more Americans.
No way lol
PJ/Lx/f91 >> idra/nony
People still overrate US as usual..
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Saying USA is #2 is ridiculous, even going by your criteria I believe China had an equal amount of players in Korea, not to mention a vastly better home pro-scene in later years. The fact that U.S. players had the opportunity to take advantage of an attempt at staying in Korea has much more to do with a socio-economic mobility background than any indication of where the talent pool lies, although you could also argue for population figures as the U.S. also has a vastly larger population than any of the other countries in that comparison (other than China obviously).
With the exception of Assem what did they truly manage during their time in Korea?
IdrA and Nony both went on to be very successful foreign players, but not really to a point where they'd overshadow other foreign giants like White-Ra, Mondragon or JF who succeeded without any training amongst Korean professionals.
I think putting USA in amongst Canada/Poland/Germany/Ukraine would be fair, but rating it higher would not be accurate, unless you can provide a list of results for fully international tournaments (as I have not been able to do this) that gives us some numbers to work with. (Also anyone recall Gosugamers used to have a better database of this? but their new website is donkeyballs)
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On January 14 2015 07:47 DarkNetHunter wrote:
I think putting USA in amongst Canada/Poland/Germany/Ukraine would be fair, but rating it higher would not be accurate, unless you can provide a list of results for fully international tournaments (as I have not been able to do this) that gives us some numbers to work with. (Also anyone recall Gosugamers used to have a better database of this? but their new website is donkeyballs)
 Leagues (Foreign)
I'd put
- Korea
- China
- Russia/Poland/Germany
- some distance
- Netherlands, Sweden, USA
no way USA is #2 in the ranking or better overall than Russia/Poland. No statement on Germany, I'm biased. Aside from Mondragon and Fish, we had plenty of capable players over the years, e.g. Breakdown, Schnibl0r, in later years kolll and GoOdy. For the US it felt as if they had some very talented players but not "that" much in comparison behind these.
Edit, this maybe also an indicator: 2006 Sandlot tournament. Koreans and Chinese overall far at the top, the rest is rather wide spread, yet no mention of the US there. And that was how the "entire" scene judged in 2006. But again, only 2006 and the Koreans/Chinese got to vote as well.
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so Hungary's not that strong apart from Sziky?
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Japan11903 Posts
If we go by acheivements, then Korea -> Canada (Grrrr) -> France (Elky) -> China -> (PJ) -> Germany/Russia/Ukraine/Australian(Mondragon/Fisheye, Androide, White-ra, Leg) -> everyone else -> Antarctica.
Otherwise, I kind of agree with Gecko.
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On January 14 2015 11:59 c3rberUs wrote:
If we go by acheivements, then Korea -> Canada (Grrrr) -> France (Elky) -> China -> (PJ) -> Germany/Russia/Ukraine/Australian(Mondragon/Fisheye, Androide, White-ra, Leg) -> everyone else -> Antarctica.
Damb. Now I want to see a good foreigner player from Antarctica. 
(hey, they've got research stations there)
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On January 14 2015 07:45 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 03:30 G5 wrote:
I'd say USA is definitely #2. Think of how many foreign pros (actually living in a Korean team house / on a Korean Pro Team) there were... I think this is a better indication of where the talent pool is as opposed to WCG results since WCG relied so much on when you hit a Korean. I might miss some but off the top of my head: Grrrr.... (CAN), Legionnaire (AUS), ElKy (FRA), Smuft (CAN), Rekrul (USA), Assem (USA), IdrA (USA), NoNy (USA), Draco (POL), Ret (NET). There are far more Americans. No way lol PJ/Lx/f91 >> idra/nony People still overrate US as usual..
From someone who played every person you mentioned on a consistent basis during all of their primes, I can tell you that IdrA, in his prime, was the best foreigner ever in SC:BW. He definitely reached the highest skill level of any foreigner. Closely followed by Ret.
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On January 14 2015 13:27 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 07:45 Probemicro wrote:On January 14 2015 03:30 G5 wrote:
I'd say USA is definitely #2. Think of how many foreign pros (actually living in a Korean team house / on a Korean Pro Team) there were... I think this is a better indication of where the talent pool is as opposed to WCG results since WCG relied so much on when you hit a Korean. I might miss some but off the top of my head: Grrrr.... (CAN), Legionnaire (AUS), ElKy (FRA), Smuft (CAN), Rekrul (USA), Assem (USA), IdrA (USA), NoNy (USA), Draco (POL), Ret (NET). There are far more Americans. No way lol PJ/Lx/f91 >> idra/nony People still overrate US as usual.. From someone who played every person you mentioned on a consistent basis during all of their primes, I can tell you that IdrA, in his prime, was the best foreigner ever in SC:BW. He definitely reached the highest skill level of any foreigner. Closely followed by Ret.
ret is the only outlier from holland and is top5 maybe, but debatable whether he is 2nd. and what has he got to do with your contentious false "USA is definitely #2" statement?
On January 14 2015 07:47 DarkNetHunter wrote:
Saying USA is #2 is ridiculous
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On January 14 2015 13:27 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 07:45 Probemicro wrote:On January 14 2015 03:30 G5 wrote:
I'd say USA is definitely #2. Think of how many foreign pros (actually living in a Korean team house / on a Korean Pro Team) there were... I think this is a better indication of where the talent pool is as opposed to WCG results since WCG relied so much on when you hit a Korean. I might miss some but off the top of my head: Grrrr.... (CAN), Legionnaire (AUS), ElKy (FRA), Smuft (CAN), Rekrul (USA), Assem (USA), IdrA (USA), NoNy (USA), Draco (POL), Ret (NET). There are far more Americans. No way lol PJ/Lx/f91 >> idra/nony People still overrate US as usual.. From someone who played every person you mentioned on a consistent basis during all of their primes, I can tell you that IdrA, in his prime, was the best foreigner ever in SC:BW. He definitely reached the highest skill level of any foreigner. Closely followed by Ret.
And not Draco ?
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Where you can complain if your topic was closed unnecessarily by irrelevant admin? Whom to report about it?
User was warned for this post.
User was temp banned for this post for imitating mod edits.
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go to site feedback. But I'm pretty sure calling an admin irrelevant won't get you far in here
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On January 14 2015 17:18 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 13:27 G5 wrote:On January 14 2015 07:45 Probemicro wrote:On January 14 2015 03:30 G5 wrote:
I'd say USA is definitely #2. Think of how many foreign pros (actually living in a Korean team house / on a Korean Pro Team) there were... I think this is a better indication of where the talent pool is as opposed to WCG results since WCG relied so much on when you hit a Korean. I might miss some but off the top of my head: Grrrr.... (CAN), Legionnaire (AUS), ElKy (FRA), Smuft (CAN), Rekrul (USA), Assem (USA), IdrA (USA), NoNy (USA), Draco (POL), Ret (NET). There are far more Americans. No way lol PJ/Lx/f91 >> idra/nony People still overrate US as usual.. From someone who played every person you mentioned on a consistent basis during all of their primes, I can tell you that IdrA, in his prime, was the best foreigner ever in SC:BW. He definitely reached the highest skill level of any foreigner. Closely followed by Ret. ret is the only outlier from holland and is top5 maybe, but debatable whether he is 2nd. and what has he got to do with your contentious false "USA is definitely #2" statement?
You say "PJ/Lx/f91 >> idra/nony"
I'm telling you 2009 IdrA would consistently beat any foreigner in any generation including today's. The reason I throw Ret in there is because 2009 Ret would consistently beat any foreigner in any generation as well (outside of IdrA) thus reinforcing that in my educated opinion, your "PJ/Lx/f91 >> idra/nony" is false.
On a separate note, this is my opinion (just like yours is an opinion) and I apologize that you find it "contentious" but one could say your "People still overrate US at usual.." as being contentious as well. Good day.
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IdrA lost his Liquibition games against F91 in what was a bo7 (2-5), and F91 was considered to be weaker than Lx or PJ, with PJ being on Korean A-Team level in WCG competitions, so his ability to beat any foreigner in any generation including today's seems completely unfounded if not outright wrong. (See other instances such as IdrA vs Kolll at WCG where IdrA went 0-2).
Not to mention that the current level of Fish play is significantly higher than a 2009 IdrA level player would be, so unless he had continued to practice in a pro-house he would be getting stomped by Sziky just like everyone else (See BW Reunion tour for examples of other former notable foreigner's attempts)
It's fine to stick up for your friends and there is no doubt IdrA achieved a lot in his time at CJ Entus, but for all his mechanical skill he still had poor judgement in many games, hence his loss in TSL2, at the height of what should have been his mechanical and strategic advantage over other foreigners.
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On January 15 2015 11:55 DarkNetHunter wrote:
Not to mention that the current level of Fish play is significantly higher than a 2009 IdrA level player would be, so unless he had continued to practice in a pro-house he would be getting stomped by Sziky
Not really, 2009 idra would easily beat any current fish player with the exception of bisu maybe, the level of play has generally dropped a bit since then.
Otherwise I concur with the rest of your post, idra's poor attitude/judgement (that carried over into sc2, though at least he found some level of success here) is what tarnish his qualities of being considered the best BW foreigner.
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Can anyone share with me VODs of mb even replays of games, where a protoss player steals an scv and wins with protoss+terran army. (I've already seen IntoTheRaibow's (that was his nick) replay).
Also, I'd like to watch VODs/reps of games like Dunaj and Blackmaster, where the map is mined out and only few units left. And the players use their units at their maximum, exploiting any spell and ability availible. I've already seen Stork vs GGplay (I believe, GGplay) on Andromeda. Would like to watch smth like this, but mb with less units and more action at the end. Again, like Dunaj vs Blackmaster.
Thanks!
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On January 15 2015 11:55 DarkNetHunter wrote:IdrA lost his Liquibition games against F91 in what was a bo7 (2-5), and F91 was considered to be weaker than Lx or PJ, with PJ being on Korean A-Team level in WCG competitions, so his ability to seems completely unfounded if not outright wrong. (See other instances such as IdrA vs Kolll at WCG where IdrA went 0-2). Not to mention that the current level of Fish play is significantly higher than a 2009 IdrA level player would be, so unless he had continued to practice in a pro-house he would be getting stomped by Sziky just like everyone else (See BW Reunion tour for examples of other former notable foreigner's attempts) It's fine to stick up for your friends and there is no doubt IdrA achieved a lot in his time at CJ Entus, but for all his mechanical skill he still had poor judgement in many games, hence his loss in TSL2, at the height of what should have been his mechanical and strategic advantage over other foreigners.
Effort won the bo5 but flash was still the better player. Random shit happens.
Guess who IdrA lost to in the TSL?
1.Another American
2. The TSL Winner
3. A contender for best player outside of Korea and China at the time (if IdrA isn't).
.
But wait, there's more. He also won 3:1 vs that same player in that same tournament. Their combined score was actually in favor of Idra at the end of TSL2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/98695-idras-recent-record is pretty telling too. It's fun to make poke at Idra because he lost to carriers, octzerg, and ret not doing a single thing but he was very clearly far better than anyone else.
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On January 15 2015 12:48 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 11:55 DarkNetHunter wrote:
Not to mention that the current level of Fish play is significantly higher than a 2009 IdrA level player would be, so unless he had continued to practice in a pro-house he would be getting stomped by Sziky
Not really, 2009 idra would easily beat any current fish player with the exception of bisu maybe, the level of play has generally dropped a bit since then.
I hope this is a joke, if you think IdrA from 6years ago would be superior to Korean ex- A-teamers that are populating Fish that have played through all the changing meta, and even "bisu maybe", like what, I feel trolled. The mechanical training might not seem as intense anymore due to lack of pro-houses, but you're really putting on some nostalgia if you think the level of play has dropped that significantly or that the former A-Team pros would not wreck him just as much now as before.
On January 15 2015 17:27 SnowFantasy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2015 11:55 DarkNetHunter wrote:IdrA lost his Liquibition games against F91 in what was a bo7 (2-5), and F91 was considered to be weaker than Lx or PJ, with PJ being on Korean A-Team level in WCG competitions, so his ability to beat any foreigner in any generation including today's seems completely unfounded if not outright wrong. (See other instances such as IdrA vs Kolll at WCG where IdrA went 0-2). Not to mention that the current level of Fish play is significantly higher than a 2009 IdrA level player would be, so unless he had continued to practice in a pro-house he would be getting stomped by Sziky just like everyone else (See BW Reunion tour for examples of other former notable foreigner's attempts) It's fine to stick up for your friends and there is no doubt IdrA achieved a lot in his time at CJ Entus, but for all his mechanical skill he still had poor judgement in many games, hence his loss in TSL2, at the height of what should have been his mechanical and strategic advantage over other foreigners. Effort won the bo5 but flash was still the better player. Random shit happens. Guess who IdrA lost to in the TSL? 1.Another American
2. The TSL Winner
3. A contender for best player outside of Korea and China at the time (if IdrA isn't).
. But wait, there's more. He also won 3:1 vs that same player in that same tournament. Their combined score was actually in favor of Idra at the end of TSL2. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/98695-idras-recent-record is pretty telling too. It's fun to make poke at Idra because he lost to carriers, octzerg, and ret not doing a single thing but he was very clearly far better than anyone else.
Actually in that case Effort was the better player, the player to win a series is always the better player of that series.
Anyway, that argument with Nony is all sound and fine, but all it does is further reinforce my point, that IdrA lost so thus he could not "beat any foreigner in any generation". Yes he won that ladder stage 3-1 set vs Nony, but that was before Nony even unrusted himself, and they are separate series.
Instead of ignoring the fact this whole discussion was triggered by G5 claiming that IdrA was in fact superior to the Chinese players, which you are not addressing by stating he would be "
3. A contender for best player outside of Korea and China at the time (if IdrA isn't)."
The whole crux of my argument was that the Chinese were being underrated by G5 when they were showing superior games compared to IdrA and thus there is no reason to assume he was the best player outside of Korea even at the height of his mechanical skill.
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It IS not as intense as before.
Do you think people still play BW 12 hours a day everyday like they used to, with coach guidance even etc? BW is one of those games that requires constant routine practice or your standard will just drop many notches over time.
Even people like Jangbi after looking at his old vods bemoan about how he has fallen so much from his old self which he has only started to regain some semblance of. Look at many of the expros fish/ssl games excluding the outlier called bisu and you can see many sloppy mistakes/control made by players that you gonna not easily find at the highest level of play ie.osl in the past
If I transport 2009 idra to this year he would easily reach current A-B fish rank no question.
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A-B fish rank doesnt mean shit if you get it by beating random pubs
if you think he can achieve that rank by laddering against other ex-pros though, then you either overrate idra or underrate the ex pros.
idras problem wasnt mechanics, it was game sense.
the problem for ex pros now isnt game sense but rather the mechanics. game sense doesnt disappear that quickly, but mechanics can be retrained quite fast.
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Effort was the better player on that very one day, in that very one best of 5. Effort was not better than Flash though just because he won one best of 5. People didn't think the next day, "Holy shit, Effort is the best player in the world now?". Everyone thought "Wow what an upset" and then Flash went back to undisputed best again. The point is better players can lose to worse players. It happens.
I'm going to throw out a chess analogy. Bobby Fischer was an extremely good chess player. He dominated just about everyone. However, throughout his career he just never did well vs this other player Efim Geller who you may not have heard of. The point is, Geller was by no means a better player than Fischer, I would say he was probably on his way out as well but Geller just had Fisher's number. Fischer even lost quite a few games as White which is like really bad at Grandmaster level play.
F91 is IdrA's Geller.
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EPT
