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On January 16 2015 00:53 Probemicro wrote:
It IS not as intense as before.
Do you think people still play BW 12 hours a day everyday like they used to, with coach guidance even etc? BW is one of those games that requires constant routine practice or your standard will just drop many notches over time.
Even people like Jangbi after looking at his old vods bemoan about how he has fallen so much from his old self which he has only started to regain some semblance of. Look at many of the expros fish/ssl games excluding the outlier called bisu and you can see many sloppy mistakes/control made by players that you gonna not easily find at the highest level of play ie.osl in the past
If I transport 2009 idra to this year he would easily reach current A-B fish rank no question.
i understand what you are trying to say Loh, but i feel you are overrating Idra a bit here and underrating Pro gamers. Sure these guys don't play 12 hours (actually 14 was the standard iirc) anymore, but they don't need to, in order to be better than (any) foreigner.[!sic] If you want to get an impression of where Idra was at vs Pro gamers, i recommend his only televised match vs  Trap in GomTV Season 3. Trap won in a convincing, but inimpressive fashion and he wasn't even considered good. For any good Pro, it takes a few practice games, to be vastly better then any other foreigner. It's like me (C- rank max) practicing with a buddy who used to play B rank and didnt play for 4 years. I do decent in the first game and the rest is a slaughter.
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On January 16 2015 12:30 Cele wrote:
but they don't need to, in order to be better than (any) foreigner
i said transport "2009 idra", its the idra that has been just exposed to the teamhouse environment/rigorous training the koreans had not have for a few years. You must be joking if you tell me such training does not make any difference in standard of play whatsoever and that koreans are somewhat immune to it, look at the horrific JD performance in HSC showmatch for example which would be unthinkable in 2009 JD, even some of the top iccup players could have beat him then.
If someone like Fengzi who is considered old (and back in his younger days with more time to practice wasnt even considered in the same tier as f91) and has a real life job AND married can reach C rank fish server, I dont see how an Idra that was just plucked from the Cj teamhouse would do any worse than him in the current fish server.
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im not sure what youre trying to argue.
the fact that idra can hit A/B on fish? or that he can do it WHILST vsing pros
he may definitely be able to get a/b if he vses random amateurs the whole way
but to get that rank while laddering against ex pros is difficult.
the standard of play in ex pros did definitely drop. were just arguing that it didnt drop to the point that even idra would beat them. that is a pretty fucking big drop
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On January 16 2015 19:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:
were just arguing that it didnt drop to the point that even idra would beat them.
if current top foreign players like sziky and fengzi can take games off expros, more so the old idra who didnt have to dodge koreans to hit top rank in iccup in the past (unlike most other foreigners)
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On January 16 2015 13:06 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2015 12:30 Cele wrote:
but they don't need to, in order to be better than (any) foreigner
i said transport "2009 idra", its the idra that has been just exposed to the teamhouse environment/rigorous training the koreans had not have for a few years. You must be joking if you tell me such training does not make any difference in standard of play whatsoever and that koreans are somewhat immune to it, look at the horrific JD performance in HSC showmatch for example which would be unthinkable in 2009 JD, even some of the top iccup players could have beat him then. If someone like Fengzi who is considered old (and back in his younger days with more time to practice wasnt even considered in the same tier as f91) and has a real life job AND married can reach C rank fish server, I dont see how an Idra that was just plucked from the Cj teamhouse would do any worse than him in the current fish server.
sure it makes a difference, but not enough for idra 2009 to be good enough. The question is to hypothetical to answer anyway i feel (;
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On January 16 2015 13:06 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2015 12:30 Cele wrote:
but they don't need to, in order to be better than (any) foreigner
i said transport "2009 idra", its the idra that has been just exposed to the teamhouse environment/rigorous training the koreans had not have for a few years. You must be joking if you tell me such training does not make any difference in standard of play whatsoever and that koreans are somewhat immune to it, look at the horrific JD performance in HSC showmatch for example which would be unthinkable in 2009 JD, even some of the top iccup players could have beat him then. If someone like Fengzi who is considered old (and back in his younger days with more time to practice wasnt even considered in the same tier as f91) and has a real life job AND married can reach C rank fish server, I dont see how an Idra that was just plucked from the Cj teamhouse would do any worse than him in the current fish server.
Jaedong was at this point not playing BW but SC2 for a significant amount of time, the ex-pros on Fish are playing BW daily, maybe not for 12 hours anymore, but certainly more than enough to take on IdrA who is missing 6years of Meta. Anyway, as previously mentioned this is entirely a hypothetical scenario, and to get back to the point, IdrA still lost to F91 in a bo7, and F91 is still worse than PJ and Lx, and hence the point being IdrA could not beat any foreigner in any generation.
Also @Arcania
F91 did not only have IdrA's number, he won like 4 liquibitions in a row against top players, so the comparison you made in chess is not very apt.
TLDR this theorizing has been going on way too long o.o
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I thought we were talking about IdrA vs F91. F91 vs non-IdrA players isn't really important.
IdrA vs not-f91 was an extremely one-sided affair. He destroyed basically everyone he played except for F91.
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How do you guys think Ty2 rates among the "top foreigners" you all are currently discussing like Idra, Nony, Ret ect.?
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Well, at least he hasn't lost to F91. I guess he has that going for him.
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On January 17 2015 09:08 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 06:31 SnowFantasy wrote:
He destroyed basically everyone he played except for F91. No, he didn't. Between 2009 and 2010 he actually did lose quite some games versus foreigners. He lost to  Kolll and  HoRRoR in the WCG Grand Finals 2009. He lost to Nony in TSL 2 and he lost to numerous other guys. Just look at his TLPD IdrA.
Yes, he did. Obviously he didn't have 100% winrate... a few lost games don't mean he wasn't the best player.
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On January 17 2015 09:08 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 06:31 SnowFantasy wrote:
He destroyed basically everyone he played except for F91. No, he didn't. Between 2009 and 2010 he actually did lose quite some games versus foreigners. He lost to Kolll and HoRRoR in the WCG Grand Finals 2009. He lost to Nony in TSL 2 and he lost to numerous other guys. Just look at his TLPD IdrA.
He also beat Nony in TSL2. He ended the tournament ahead in score. Yes he dropped a single bo1 game to horror at the same tournament Jaedong dropped one game to advokate. Dropping a single game is a big deal.
"Basically everyone" does not mean "literally everyone". Obviously players will lose some games from time to time. Shit happens.
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On January 17 2015 09:38 Sero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 09:08 Cele wrote:On January 17 2015 06:31 SnowFantasy wrote:
He destroyed basically everyone he played except for F91. No, he didn't. Between 2009 and 2010 he actually did lose quite some games versus foreigners. He lost to Kolll and HoRRoR in the WCG Grand Finals 2009. He lost to Nony in TSL 2 and he lost to numerous other guys. Just look at his TLPD IdrA. Yes, he did. Obviously he didn't have 100% winrate... a few lost games don't mean he wasn't the best player.
in key tournaments, he just couldn't show off he WAS the best player, or otherwise you'd expect him to win some moe of them. And his winrate for the years 2009 and 2010 is 70%, which is quite good, but not as outstanding as you make it, i think.
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On January 17 2015 10:10 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 09:38 Sero wrote:On January 17 2015 09:08 Cele wrote:On January 17 2015 06:31 SnowFantasy wrote:
He destroyed basically everyone he played except for F91. No, he didn't. Between 2009 and 2010 he actually did lose quite some games versus foreigners. He lost to Kolll and HoRRoR in the WCG Grand Finals 2009. He lost to Nony in TSL 2 and he lost to numerous other guys. Just look at his TLPD IdrA. Yes, he did. Obviously he didn't have 100% winrate... a few lost games don't mean he wasn't the best player. in key tournaments, he just couldn't show off he WAS the best player, or otherwise you'd expect him to win some moe of them. And his winrate for the years 2009 and 2010 is 70%, which is quite good, but not as outstanding as you make it, i think.
This guy's winrate was 70% too, and he was considered the best player of all time. I think 70% is pretty good.
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On January 17 2015 10:16 Sero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 10:10 Cele wrote:On January 17 2015 09:38 Sero wrote:On January 17 2015 09:08 Cele wrote:On January 17 2015 06:31 SnowFantasy wrote:
He destroyed basically everyone he played except for F91. No, he didn't. Between 2009 and 2010 he actually did lose quite some games versus foreigners. He lost to Kolll and HoRRoR in the WCG Grand Finals 2009. He lost to Nony in TSL 2 and he lost to numerous other guys. Just look at his TLPD IdrA. Yes, he did. Obviously he didn't have 100% winrate... a few lost games don't mean he wasn't the best player. in key tournaments, he just couldn't show off he WAS the best player, or otherwise you'd expect him to win some moe of them. And his winrate for the years 2009 and 2010 is 70%, which is quite good, but not as outstanding as you make it, i think. This guy's winrate was 70% too, and he was considered the best player of all time. I think 70% is pretty good.
so Sziky is better than Idra and Flash coz his winrate is better then both with 78%? That's now how it works and i didn't claim that. I just adressed the "crushed everybody he faced" idea, which you can't hold to be true. He was a top player in that time, but there were more than enough of his caliber.
Beeing the best player means to me: being a dominant player in regard to the rest of the field. In that regard Sziky nowadays is way more dominant in the foreign scene than Idra ever was...
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Flash was better than other Korean progamers with 70% winrate, Idra was better than the non-Korean players of his time with 70% winrate, and Sziky is better than current non-Koreans with 70% winrate. Obviously it matters who they were against.
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We can go over his games from 2009 forward under a microscope if you want.
+ Show Spoiler +
TvT: 84.85% win rate. That speaks for itself.
TvZ: He lost to Effort (wow, big deal). He won a Bo5 vs Ret 3-1, Lost a Bo5 vs Ret 2-3, Won a Bo5 vs Ret and won another Bo5 vs Ret all in the same event. He won 2 out of three three Bo5s.
He 3-0d Xiaozi in a bo5.
He won a bo3 vs Castro
He lost a bo5 2-3 vs Dinot.
He won a bo3 vs Dimaga
He won yet another Bo5 and a bo3 vs Ret and another Bo3 vs Castro
He 3-0'd Mondragon and went 3-1 vs Xiaozi again
At blizzcon he lost 1-2 to ret, won a bo3 vs Octzerg, won the Bo3's vs incontrol and lzgamer at wcg usa
After that he lost one bo3 1-2 vs Xiaozi and then won the next 2-1 and 3-0'd him in not one, not two but three bo5s shortly after.
Yes to kolll but then won a bo3 vs him in a future tournament a month later where he also 2-0d mondragon again and koget. He also lost one bo3 0-2 to ToT)ace(
In summary: He went 17-5 in Bo3's or Bo5s vs foreign zergs with a significant amount of them being 3-0 victories. He dropped a couple Bo1's here and there but shit happens.
TvP: His 74.2% win rate over 60 games is very impressive.
In TSL2 he won 3-1 and lost 2-3 vs nony (who was really fucking good anyway obviously).
vs whitera: won a bo3 2-0, a bo5 3-1, a bo3 2-1, a bo3 2-0, a bo5 3-0 and lost a bo3 1-2.
vs arew: 3-0 in a bo5
vs mana: lost a bo3 1-2 and won a bo3 2-1
vs iefnaij: won a bo3 2-1
vs Fenix: went 4-0. i'll count it as one bo7 because i don't remember what it was.
vs yaba: won a bo5 3-2
vs oystein: won a bo3 2-0
he won all 5 of his TvP bo1 games and won 12 of his 15 Bo3/Bo5/Bo7 series.
He won 78.4% of his BoX series vs foreigners from 2009 forward (29/37). That's pretty damn good. He destroyed almost everyone he played.
I'll do something similar for Kolll so we can get a side by side comparison since everyone keeps bringing him up.
+ Show Spoiler +
Less than 50% win rate over the same time period.
Got 3-1'd by Fenix
Won 3-1 vs Morrow and 2-1 vs Octzerg
Got 2-1'd by Koget
2-0d Xiaozi
He lost 1-2 to morrow and 0-2 to eriador
He lost 0-2 and won 2-0 to Lzgamer
He lost 1-2 to brat_ok and 1-2 to ret
He did win 2-1 vs sarens though
He was 5-2 in Bo1 games
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Why waste your time, SnowFantasy and Sero? Cele is either thick or blinded by a dislike of IdrA.
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On January 17 2015 10:56 SnowFantasy wrote:We can go over his games from 2009 forward under a microscope if you want. + Show Spoiler +
TvT: 84.85% win rate. That speaks for itself.
TvZ: He lost to Effort (wow, big deal). He won a Bo5 vs Ret 3-1, Lost a Bo5 vs Ret 2-3, Won a Bo5 vs Ret and won another Bo5 vs Ret all in the same event. He won 2 out of three three Bo5s.
He 3-0d Xiaozi in a bo5.
He won a bo3 vs Castro
He lost a bo5 2-3 vs Dinot.
He won a bo3 vs Dimaga
He won yet another Bo5 and a bo3 vs Ret and another Bo3 vs Castro
He 3-0'd Mondragon and went 3-1 vs Xiaozi again
At blizzcon he lost 1-2 to ret, won a bo3 vs Octzerg, won the Bo3's vs incontrol and lzgamer at wcg usa
After that he lost one bo3 1-2 vs Xiaozi and then won the next 2-1 and 3-0'd him in not one, not two but three bo5s shortly after.
Yes to kolll but then won a bo3 vs him in a future tournament a month later where he also 2-0d mondragon again and koget. He also lost one bo3 0-2 to ToT)ace(
In summary: He went 17-5 in Bo3's or Bo5s vs foreign zergs with a significant amount of them being 3-0 victories. He dropped a couple Bo1's here and there but shit happens.
TvP: His 74.2% win rate over 60 games is very impressive.
In TSL2 he won 3-1 and lost 2-3 vs nony (who was really fucking good anyway obviously).
vs whitera: won a bo3 2-0, a bo5 3-1, a bo3 2-1, a bo3 2-0, a bo5 3-0 and lost a bo3 1-2.
vs arew: 3-0 in a bo5
vs mana: lost a bo3 1-2 and won a bo3 2-1
vs iefnaij: won a bo3 2-1
vs Fenix: went 4-0. i'll count it as one bo7 because i don't remember what it was.
vs yaba: won a bo5 3-2
vs oystein: won a bo3 2-0
he won all 5 of his TvP bo1 games and won 12 of his 15 Bo3/Bo5/Bo7 series.
He won 78.4% of his BoX series vs foreigners from 2009 forward (29/37). That's pretty damn good. He destroyed almost everyone he played.
I'll do something similar for Kolll so we can get a side by side comparison since everyone keeps bringing him up. + Show Spoiler +
Less than 50% win rate over the same time period.
Got 3-1'd by Fenix
Won 3-1 vs Morrow and 2-1 vs Octzerg
Got 2-1'd by Koget
2-0d Xiaozi
He lost 1-2 to morrow and 0-2 to eriador
He lost 0-2 and won 2-0 to Lzgamer
He lost 1-2 to brat_ok and 1-2 to ret
He did win 2-1 vs sarens though
He was 5-2 in Bo1 games
for your comparison, Mondragon between 2005 and 2007. Overall Winrate 65 %. Not so impressive? count the games vs Pro Gamers out, that's 72% winrate. Oh and will im at it, he won vs sAviOr in WCG 2007 and took a game of Reach during Blizzcon 2005.
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EPT
