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What is the biggest (yet common) mistake when you use hotkeys? and F2-F4 ctrls?
I am a protoss player and early game I 4,5,6 my early gateways and 0,9 my first two nexuses so that I macro efficiently, while 1,2,3 are unit control groups and 7,8 are either more nexuses,gateways or tech facilities.
Late game I tend to use a lot of F controls to screen my gateways and where they go but it's way slower, and I tend to make mistakes as I 1,2,3 my army and when I want to save the rally points of my new gateways I tend to 1-9 all of them and forgot I had an army in the middle of the fight (lol) as they die over because of my mismicro.
As you may help me with protoss, how do even zerg or terran manage this complex system? More practice I guess? (duh)
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On June 16 2011 14:33 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 14:04 Torte de Lini wrote:I'm learning Terran with the basic opener of ILooveoov (Factory expand). Except the Protoss AI zealot rushes me hardcore. I can usually fend off the main part of the wave with a complete wall-off of 4 marines + 1 Siege tank in time (maybe two if I work on my macro). But the AI is pretty dumb and once he kills off my force, he focuses down my Barracks instead of going for my mineral line. If a player Zealot rushes, how can I hold it off with my current build order? Do I deviate and make more marines? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Iloveoov_Build I would advise against practising against the AI, a human opponent is very unlikely to do the 3 Gate Zealot build that they do (you can also hold off the AI's Zealots with a single Marine behind your wall, they'll just freak out in their attempt to reach it lol) If a human does do that build though then you probably want to adapt your build into 2 fact vutls, or drop them with vultures or even 3 fact vult, or wait till you have a decent number of tanks before lifting your rax and floating the CC out to expo. If a Protoss goes 3 Gate Zealot like that and you have your wall up then you're in a really good position, just delay your expo and take advantage of their lack of Dragoons with Vultures. You should upload a rep so we can see the state of your play and then we can help you more.
Considering that I'm still horrendously new and barely working out of the gate, I'm starting with the A.I until I can get my bearings.
I have 3 replays. 2 wins against a Protoss and a Zerg and I believe one loss (all against a.i)
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On June 16 2011 15:09 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 14:33 jello_biafra wrote:On June 16 2011 14:04 Torte de Lini wrote:I'm learning Terran with the basic opener of ILooveoov (Factory expand). Except the Protoss AI zealot rushes me hardcore. I can usually fend off the main part of the wave with a complete wall-off of 4 marines + 1 Siege tank in time (maybe two if I work on my macro). But the AI is pretty dumb and once he kills off my force, he focuses down my Barracks instead of going for my mineral line. If a player Zealot rushes, how can I hold it off with my current build order? Do I deviate and make more marines? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Iloveoov_Build I would advise against practising against the AI, a human opponent is very unlikely to do the 3 Gate Zealot build that they do (you can also hold off the AI's Zealots with a single Marine behind your wall, they'll just freak out in their attempt to reach it lol) If a human does do that build though then you probably want to adapt your build into 2 fact vutls, or drop them with vultures or even 3 fact vult, or wait till you have a decent number of tanks before lifting your rax and floating the CC out to expo. If a Protoss goes 3 Gate Zealot like that and you have your wall up then you're in a really good position, just delay your expo and take advantage of their lack of Dragoons with Vultures. You should upload a rep so we can see the state of your play and then we can help you more. Considering that I'm still horrendously new and barely working out of the gate, I'm starting with the A.I until I can get my bearings. I have 3 replays. 2 wins against a Protoss and a Zerg and I believe one loss (all against a.i)
Fair enough, it will allow you to practice the build order but just be aware you will have to adapt it because of the computer's play style, you'll have to delay your expo because the zealots can get all up in you when a human player would have some goons that could be held back by tanks.
And uh, have you just been set up with a drone for life? o_O
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Is the BO I'm doing standard/acceptable for all Match-ups? I don't go vultures when my factory goes up, but rather rely on marines and bunkers.
On a side-note, I have a lot of trouble keeping my gas low. When I start getting gas, I only put two guys on gas because of how fast it stockpiles.
That's really it. The build is pretty straight-forward and is really comfortable for me. My only problem is working all the units out and learning how to push out with a slow strong force.
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On June 16 2011 15:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is the BO I'm doing standard/acceptable for all Match-ups? I don't go vultures when my factory goes up, but rather rely on marines and bunkers.
On a side-note, I have a lot of trouble keeping my gas low. When I start getting gas, I only put two guys on gas because of how fast it stockpiles.
That's really it. The build is pretty straight-forward and is really comfortable for me. My only problem is working all the units out and learning how to push out with a slow strong force.
Well it's a TvP BO (you can do a very similar one TvT but you don't need to wall and should float your rax to their base as a scout) and you don't really want to use a bunker unless your going 1 Rax CC (and it should be out in your natural to defend that position).
As for the gas thing, generally what you want to do is take two SCVs off it after collecting your first 88 gas (so second comes off at 96), put your factory down when you have 100, and then keep them off until around the time your factory completes then put them both back on, with siege, mines and speed to tech, factories to build and tanks to make you shouldn't have much trouble keeping your gas low.
I will play a quick game against the AI with a version of this build that I think that is optimized against them as an example for you.
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Thanks, I really appreciate it!
[url blocked]
My first three games on SC BW ;D!
As you can see, I play horrendously, I forgot how to shift hotkey a location, so the first two games are without it.
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On June 16 2011 15:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
Thanks, I really appreciate it!
Where is the replays folder for SCBW?
C:\Program Files\Starcraft\maps\replays
Okay so here it is, 1 fact siege expand against Protoss AI, I only make one marine and no bunker, requires a little micro to hold off the zealots but it's pretty much the build you'd use against a human opponent.
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/42461.jpg)
On June 16 2011 15:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
Thanks, I really appreciate it!
[url blocked]
My first three games on SC BW ;D!
As you can see, I play horrendously, I forgot how to shift hotkey a location, so the first two games are without it.
Cool man, I'll take a look tomorrow (aka later today), it's 8 AM here and I've been up all night and I have to work later today so I'm gonna get some sleep T_T
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On June 16 2011 16:02 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 15:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
Thanks, I really appreciate it!
Where is the replays folder for SCBW? C:\Program Files\Starcraft\maps\replays Okay so here it is, 1 fact siege expand against Protoss AI, I only make one marine and no bunker, requires a little micro to hold off the zealots but it's pretty much the build you'd use against a human opponent.
Oh, I should have used Rep. Depot.
I just put them in a rar file and batched them together: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2W40EP9W
My first three games on SC BW ;D!
As you can see, I play horrendously, I forgot how to shift hotkey a location, so the first two games are without it.
I'm going to bed, but I will check this out ASAP!
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On June 16 2011 15:03 k.taeyang wrote:
What is the biggest (yet common) mistake when you use hotkeys? and F2-F4 ctrls?
I am a protoss player and early game I 4,5,6 my early gateways and 0,9 my first two nexuses so that I macro efficiently, while 1,2,3 are unit control groups and 7,8 are either more nexuses,gateways or tech facilities.
Late game I tend to use a lot of F controls to screen my gateways and where they go but it's way slower, and I tend to make mistakes as I 1,2,3 my army and when I want to save the rally points of my new gateways I tend to 1-9 all of them and forgot I had an army in the middle of the fight (lol) as they die over because of my mismicro.
As you may help me with protoss, how do even zerg or terran manage this complex system? More practice I guess? (duh)
Well a common way to use F2-F4 was like this:
F2: Main base
F3: Natural
F4: Gateways
This allowed for an easier way to transfer Probes in case of harassment (say Reaver drops or Vultures). Since generally you set your rally points at your natural, F3 is an easy way to get there. As far as setting rally points, I would just hit F4, hotkey four Gateways to 3 4 5 6 (although this is obviously personal preference), hit F3, rally them, rinse and repeat.
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How do you deal with 1 basing Ps? Let me be a little more specific, none of the pros ever one base anymore so they can just go under the assumption that there oponnent will never 1 base but on the D-D+ range Ps 1 basing is quite frequent. So how do you deal with the possible threat of 1 base play when you often need to send your drone out to the 3rd if you want to be even with a FE even before you see what your opponent is doing?
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On June 16 2011 22:22 Crabman123 wrote:
How do you deal with 1 basing Ps? Let me be a little more specific, none of the pros ever one base anymore so they can just go under the assumption that there oponnent will never 1 base but on the D-D+ range Ps 1 basing is quite frequent. So how do you deal with the possible threat of 1 base play when you often need to send your drone out to the 3rd if you want to be even with a FE even before you see what your opponent is doing?
Any two base hydra build to deal with the fast corsair, then go hydra range and spore up a little bit... you can afford to play very safe because protoss can't get out much on one base.
if he goes DT's, spore up and eventually lurker bust him... the only way he can hold the lurker bust is to cannon up, and if he does that, just contain him and eventually bust him through sheer econ.
if he goes reavers, get burrow and don't lose too much to reaver harass and you should be way ahead.
mass gateway can be held off with just hydra ling. as long as you don't lose too much, you should be fine.
the winning key against one base protoss is to not lose too much and use superior eco and tech switches from muta to hydra and back to destroy him. he cannot have enough gas to get corsairs and hts on one base.. if he somehow does have both, then you are doing something wrong or you have to start scouting expos with a ling
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On June 17 2011 03:17 lyAsakura wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 22:22 Crabman123 wrote:
How do you deal with 1 basing Ps? Let me be a little more specific, none of the pros ever one base anymore so they can just go under the assumption that there oponnent will never 1 base but on the D-D+ range Ps 1 basing is quite frequent. So how do you deal with the possible threat of 1 base play when you often need to send your drone out to the 3rd if you want to be even with a FE even before you see what your opponent is doing? Any two base hydra build to deal with the fast corsair, then go hydra range and spore up a little bit... you can afford to play very safe because protoss can't get out much on one base. if he goes DT's, spore up and eventually lurker bust him... the only way he can hold the lurker bust is to cannon up, and if he does that, just contain him and eventually bust him through sheer econ. if he goes reavers, get burrow and don't lose too much to reaver harass and you should be way ahead. mass gateway can be held off with just hydra ling. as long as you don't lose too much, you should be fine. the winning key against one base protoss is to not lose too much and use superior eco and tech switches from muta to hydra and back to destroy him. he cannot have enough gas to get corsairs and hts on one base.. if he somehow does have both, then you are doing something wrong or you have to start scouting expos with a ling
Thats not really what I was asking. What I really want to know is how do you deal with the threat of a 1 base play. Not actually dealing with a 1 base play. Should you drone scout on 10 or something to determine whether he is 1 basing or FFE. Because I often have to cancel my 3rd because he is 1 basing and that leaves me a little behind, but if I don't send a drone to the 3rd and plant it down I will be behind FFE. But I just want to know the rational about pros never drone scouting vs P and how they are so confident against 1 base play that they are willing to play a blind risk.
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Forget about copying pros, just drone scout as your putting your hatch down. 1 base play is map specific too otherwise it'll lose it's effectiveness on certain maps.
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On June 16 2011 15:03 k.taeyang wrote:
What is the biggest (yet common) mistake when you use hotkeys? and F2-F4 ctrls?
I am a protoss player and early game I 4,5,6 my early gateways and 0,9 my first two nexuses so that I macro efficiently, while 1,2,3 are unit control groups and 7,8 are either more nexuses,gateways or tech facilities.
Late game I tend to use a lot of F controls to screen my gateways and where they go but it's way slower, and I tend to make mistakes as I 1,2,3 my army and when I want to save the rally points of my new gateways I tend to 1-9 all of them and forgot I had an army in the middle of the fight (lol) as they die over because of my mismicro.
As you may help me with protoss, how do even zerg or terran manage this complex system? More practice I guess? (duh)
Changing rally points is easily done by setting one F key over your production, then another one over the new rally point and switching back and forth between them, selecting a new building each time. Then just reset your F keys to the bases they were on before.
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wait a sec: can F2, F3, and all F be used just like 0-9 as forces?
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On June 17 2011 18:40 erikzbi wrote:
wait a sec: can F2, F3, and all F be used just like 0-9 as forces?
No, screen locations only.
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On June 17 2011 04:10 Crabman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 03:17 lyAsakura wrote:On June 16 2011 22:22 Crabman123 wrote:
How do you deal with 1 basing Ps? Let me be a little more specific, none of the pros ever one base anymore so they can just go under the assumption that there oponnent will never 1 base but on the D-D+ range Ps 1 basing is quite frequent. So how do you deal with the possible threat of 1 base play when you often need to send your drone out to the 3rd if you want to be even with a FE even before you see what your opponent is doing? Any two base hydra build to deal with the fast corsair, then go hydra range and spore up a little bit... you can afford to play very safe because protoss can't get out much on one base. if he goes DT's, spore up and eventually lurker bust him... the only way he can hold the lurker bust is to cannon up, and if he does that, just contain him and eventually bust him through sheer econ. if he goes reavers, get burrow and don't lose too much to reaver harass and you should be way ahead. mass gateway can be held off with just hydra ling. as long as you don't lose too much, you should be fine. the winning key against one base protoss is to not lose too much and use superior eco and tech switches from muta to hydra and back to destroy him. he cannot have enough gas to get corsairs and hts on one base.. if he somehow does have both, then you are doing something wrong or you have to start scouting expos with a ling Thats not really what I was asking. What I really want to know is how do you deal with the threat of a 1 base play. Not actually dealing with a 1 base play. Should you drone scout on 10 or something to determine whether he is 1 basing or FFE. Because I often have to cancel my 3rd because he is 1 basing and that leaves me a little behind, but if I don't send a drone to the 3rd and plant it down I will be behind FFE. But I just want to know the rational about pros never drone scouting vs P and how they are so confident against 1 base play that they are willing to play a blind risk.
Just to aid you in your scouting.
If say you play on FS against P, you should send your overlord to the area outside the bridge then move off to the location behind the next main's natural i.e. if you spawn at bottom right, send your overlord to the bridge area then to the bottom left natural.
If you either go 11 pool or 12 hatch, send a drone to build the hatch if 12 hatch and the one other drone from your 2 larvae after the overlord to scout. If you 11 pool, send 1 drone after pool is down. The drone should go to the direction perpendicular of your overlord scouting path.
Once your overlord reaches there, 2 scenarios:
a) Sees probe
b) No probe
This portion is very important for you to note the angle of his probe arrival so you can determine where he spawned. If you are fortunate enough and spot a probe, then you can determine that he spawned at either linear spawning locations and not diagonally. In this case, the drone should be sent to the other linear spot just to scout that base and the overlord should reach his natural in time for you to see his simcity.
If you see no probe, then still follow the drone scout at the perpendicular direction of overlord. If your Overlord spots a probe moving towards it mid-way to that natural or if your drone meets his probe half-way to the perpendicular base, then his spawning location is at the diagonal spot. In this case, you should move your drone right to the diagonal spot and see if his natural setup is up or not.
This should be in time for you to determine if your third hatch should be in base or at a third location.
EDIT: I'm actually in a rush now and I know that was a shitty explanation with so many terms ill draw it on the map once im home.
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Okay now that I'm back, hopefully I can explain this scouting pattern that I myself use and I adapted it from Savior actually from seeing him playing on afreeca.
![[image loading]](http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/Jeromemave/600px-Silver_Wing.jpg)
Assuming you spawn at the orange cross, your overlord should follow the yellow scouting path in that direction up till the yellow circle area. In FS, it is a standard that your overlord should always move towards the natural of the main in which your overlord should arrive behind the natural min line. This way, you are keeping your overlord safe.
To fully utilise this scouting, moving to the yellow circle helps you to spot the timing of his probe. If you spot his probe with the first scouting overlord at the yellow circle, it means a few things.
1. He spawned at bottom left
2. He spawned at top right
3. He fast expanded at either of these two expansions.
At this point, it is fortune on your side. It is critical to be keeping a look on your overlord nearing the yellow circle so that you can judge the angle of his probe arrival to determine either spawning locations.
If however, you do not see any probe, then you will need to drone scout to fully reconcile the overlord scouting pattern. The drone timing is standard as with 11 pool and 12 hatch, with using one of the two drones that pop after the second overlord.
The drone scout should follow the pink path. From here, you need to keep an eye on your overlord and drone to see which unit intercepts the probe. In both cases if either your drone or overlord intercepts his probe(location at green and red cross), then his spawn location is confirmed to be diagonally across. In which case, you should send your drone right to the top left location and check out if he has a simcity or not.
The timings of this should be just before your pool is at 75%, allowing you to decide if your third hatch should be in base against a 1 base play or at a third base if he fast expanded.
NOTE: If neither drone nor overlord intercept a probe but a probe arrives at your base, check for proxies in the middle.Sorry the underlined section is wrong. I forgot to add that if neither your overlord nor your drone meet a probe at mid-way but then your drone meets the probe at the natural that it is headed to, then he spawned at the location in which your overlord is moving to. This can be applied to 4 player maps as well but your first overlord needs to move to an intersection in which two nearest spawning locations would have the scouting probe move to if he decides to scout to your location first.
Okay hopefully this paints a better picture.
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On May 09 2011 10:28 hacklebeast wrote:
If that's what he was asking, it would look something like this:
3 hatch>14cc>12hatch>1 rax fe>12pool>overpool>2 rax>9 pool>bbs>5pool
I am pretty sure you do not mean it this way but theoretically you are saying a 14 CC is stronger than a 5 or 9 pool.
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On June 16 2011 12:25 Elementsu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 09:49 NationInArms wrote:
Q: How should a Terran defend his third on Fighting Spirit(the base that has two ramps) against Protoss? I usually put Supply Depots to block the ramp, set up 3 tanks, and a few turrets to prevent drops. I also put a few mines, maybe 5, in front of the ramp also. However, the Protoss always sends in Zealots first to drag the mines and then uses dragoons to take out the Supply Depots and rushes in with zealots... I have the same doubt but its related to the terran 4th, it just seems impossible to take it on a map like FS against because i just can`t make my army sit there otherwise toss will attack my main and nat. Any suggestions?
To be honest, Terran is made to max out push with 3. Taking a 4th and more should not be done until your push begins, when the entire protoss army has to focus on defending the push. Even a slow push/contain allows you to take defenseless expos.
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EPT
