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Hello, I want to share my thoughts about latest Flash vs Jeadong game. I found it exciting not only because these players were facing each other, but also because of strategy employed by one of them. So here is my battle report and as good analysis as I could produce.
+ Show Spoiler [SPL Jaedong vs Flash 2011-05-03 @ Circ…] +Jeadong starts at the bottom left as a zerg (surprise, surprise), and Flash spawns at the upper right (he gets terran for whatever reason). Jeadong goes 12 hatch-12 pool, and Flash 1-Rax expands, and scouts Jeadong's third hatch. Jeadong's drones snap this scv few times when passing by, so when zerglings comes to quickly take it down, it has only 20 hp lef! It's worth mentioning, that J scouts with a drone too, finding Flash's position and backing off before marine at the front could pick it off. After killing initial terran scout Jeadong carefully denies any additional scouting, having one zergling in the front of terran natural and three at his own entrance. To cut the long story short on zerg part, Jeadong goes three hatch muta behind four zerglings. What is most interesting for now, is Flash's build. It goes like this: 1Rax expo Factory(!) 2nd Rax, academy Starport(!)+ Ebay Science Facility (!) + addon at the Starport, and at this timing first medics pops, and stim in the academy is being started! And so Lair was ready at the time when 2nd Rax just went under construction! We were to see direct tech to vessels vs three hatch muta. Might it work? Jeadong places his spire at creep of his third hatch, and when his 9 mutas go into air to bring death to all non-zerg (and not-controlled by Tyrant) living creatures, he expands at the bottom right. When JD gets to his opponent's base, he sees overall four turrets total in two spots (he does not bother going to the natural minerals), he makes Flash stim couple of times, making him wasting medic energy, and finds an opportunity to demolish upper two turrets, in the meantime reinforcing mutas to 11 total. I guess when Tyrant realized there is only about 10 marines, he pumped few more zerglings to attack on the ground. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f5QAv.png) All the marines Now the most important moment in the game: after loosing last two turrets in the main, Flash gets enough energy to irradiate, and he uses it... in vain! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ae5U6.png) It didn't last longer than this screenshotInfected muta dies immediately, so quickly that JD had no time to react against it! In fact, he even didn't realize he was irradiated, as came out in the post game interview![ interview] Then zerglings made it to the natural, and it was pretty much over, next irradiate was pointless, and a tank-scv combo doesn't seem to do too well against mutas with zergling support... Flash taps out. At first glance it seemed to be a one-sided ownage, stompage and fury of Tyrant unleashed at an innocent terran. But I think it was way closer, than it looked like. Why? What went wrong.Okay, Flash's gameplan is pretty obvious: get irradiate, deal with muta with extreme prejudice. The thing is, this Irradiate didn't work. Just imagine what would happen should irradiation landed on a healthy mutalisk: JD would be forced to back off and split. He's so good with this, the damage would be minimum, but still, some would be applied, and few second to rebuilt a turret, heal marines, pop two more, two since vessels in the air... and we would see strong defense overall. Key thing in this built is the very first irradiation, and this time the key missed it lock. But there was one more mistake Flash did, I believe. Like against Effort in the 5th set of the OSL, he did not walled. Even if first radiation had went as planned, JD had a good chance to attack with zerglings and do the damage, especially if he would take mutalisks with them. I well remember that against Jeadong he did wall and he did win in the MSL just few days later. This wall+bunker (already in place!) would render lings useless in that place at this timing. But maybe I exaggerate, and marines from the high ground could deal with this treat? I see Flash's point in this build: with such fast vessels you would simply walk over any amount of lurkers zerg can produce to slow you down, and your push is game-ending, basically. It's risky, it's on the edge, but expect it to be used again, slightly refined and corrected. When it finally works on the stage, it could very well change the face of TvZ. I shall wait for next FvsZ impatiently!
edit: due to suggestion below I add a link to the game: KT vs OZ set 2: F vs OZ.
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There is a discussion on this in the PR thread.
On-topic.
Didnt flash get a second vessel as well?
if so why did he get the second vessel( just to cast more irradiates or to just stock for the future?)
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I think Flash was already dead before the first irradiate 
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On May 06 2011 20:27 meegrean wrote:I think Flash was already dead before the first irradiate
Agree. JD made him stim 6x iirc. Those marines were already zombies by the time the mutaling push came
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Totally agree with OP. JD won this game easily due to luck. The Irradiate that disappeared in less than a second is the crucial turning point of the game. Flash's build relied so much on the vessel's irradiate - and when it failed due to bad luck, everything is over.
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On May 06 2011 17:41 jjhchsc2 wrote:
There is a discussion on this in the PR thread.
On-topic.
Didnt flash get a second vessel as well?
if so why did he get the second vessel( just to cast more irradiates or to just stock for the future?)
The fast vessel build offers you a strong middle game transition because of the extra vessels you have to complement your bionic force. Getting more vessels is the objective of this build. And he got the second vessel, and a second irradiate.
To complement the analysis: Flash had 4 marines in a bunker to defend the natural, but the muta harass was so effective he used them to defend the main (at that point, he had like 3 marines and 3 medics in the main). Jaedong's timing was top notch, as soon as the marines left the natural, 6 or 8 lings were already in the ramp. That's why the first irradiate wasn't so important. Jaedong could sacrifice his mutas in exchange of destroying the natural and SCVs in the natural.
Edit: Very nice second post!
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Netherlands45349 Posts
How many times do I have to say this:
Flash stimmed 6 times
6 times
His marines might aswell have been plagued at that point, yes the irradiate would matter but he would still lose. Notice in the game how flash perfectly microes his hurt marines to the back, ultimately leading to his downfall as Jaedong his mutalisks suddenly burst down 4-5 marines and then dive in to take out the rest.
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On May 06 2011 21:19 alypse wrote:
Totally agree with OP. JD won this game easily due to luck. The Irradiate that disappeared in less than a second is the crucial turning point of the game. Flash's build relied so much on the vessel's irradiate - and when it failed due to bad luck, everything is over.
I agree / disagree. He won the game easily due to luck, but he was definitely in a commanding position even without that luck, the game would just probably have gone on longer and flash wouldnt have instantly died. Still, flashs marines were already extremely weak and I dont feel 1 irradiate would have repelled the muta harass enough to save flash's marine count
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tbh even if he landed an irradiate on a full hp muta and jaedong didnt split them, his marines would've been toasted by the mutaling anyway. they were half dead before the irradiate got off
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On May 06 2011 22:47 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 21:19 alypse wrote:
Totally agree with OP. JD won this game easily due to luck. The Irradiate that disappeared in less than a second is the crucial turning point of the game. Flash's build relied so much on the vessel's irradiate - and when it failed due to bad luck, everything is over. I agree / disagree. He won the game easily due to luck, but he was definitely in a commanding position even without that luck, the game would just probably have gone on longer and flash wouldnt have instantly died. Still, flashs marines were already extremely weak and I dont feel 1 irradiate would have repelled the muta harass enough to save flash's marine count
It's easy to feel that JD was in a commanding position when everything we saw was a rape with mutas+lings owning poor marines. But as the OP said, if the Irradiate was successful, things could have been different. Right before the irradiate landed, Flash had 5 marines with 3 medics in his main, plus 4 full health marines coming to defend from his nat. That's 8/9 marines+3 medics against irradiated mutas (which still would have lost a significant HP should JD split well). JD would definitely have to pull his mutas back. Now for the lings... As you can see from the VOD when the mutas killed the MM force on high ground, the lings - 10 units total - still have not arrived at the ramp. Flash had a lot of SCVs mining at his nat - he would definitely pull all those workers to block the ramp - which he actually did - and help the MMs kill off those guys. That's perfectly possible - go watch the VOD to confirm this - with SCVs blocking the way, MM on high ground would have taken good care of those 10 lings. And not to mention he would have 2 more marines poping out at this point. And a tank about to finish, and time to build more turrets, and so on...
Of course this is speculation and I'm not saying Flash would certainly win if he held against that attack. But Flash must definitely have practiced this with Action/CH for quite some times. He knew the build is viable - and especially against JD, whom he said that he always feels nervous when playing against, he wouldn't have done it if he felt insecure about it. To conclude, my point here remains the same: the first Irradiate plays a crucial role in this game.
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To those saying that Jaedong won due to luck: Whether or not the mutas died to irradiate or not doesn't matter... at that point, JD was on 3 bases and Flash had 2 rax, barely any m&m, 2 vessels, and no econ. JD already won before that point. What Flash did then really doesn't matter.
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jaedong won because of flashes mistakes, not luck. and the irridiate didnt matter, if the muta hadnt died jd wouldve taken some damage, split the muta, and still overwhelmed flashes defence.
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On May 06 2011 20:59 GG.NoRe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 20:27 meegrean wrote:I think Flash was already dead before the first irradiate Agree. JD made him stim 6x iirc. Those marines were already zombies by the time the mutaling push came
Yup, low energy and low health.
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I think the reason JD won that game, was cuz he was Brown Zerg vs Blue Terran again, just like the Group D win. Had nothing to do with skill, just color
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This is the new Power Outage.
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On May 07 2011 05:29 WWJDD wrote:
This is the new Power Outage.
lol
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shouldve put the vod in the OP. just a suggestion ^^
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On May 07 2011 05:29 WWJDD wrote:
This is the new Power Outage.
Nah. This is nothing compared to power outage. This is more like the game where jaedong lost pathetically after forgetting to research consume, but would've surely won easily otherwise.
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flash got off a irradiate on a muta that died instantly, he would have been fine for a while longer if it was on a full health muta.
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On May 06 2011 20:27 meegrean wrote:I think Flash was already dead before the first irradiate
I agree with this. Once Jaedong broke down those 2 turrets, the game was over. Flash's marine count was just too low, he had to stall jaedong's mutas until he could get irradiate and a healthy-sized marine ball, and JD just ee han timing'd his marines
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I got shivers after watching this game, for me Jaedong is just tremendous
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Was definitely over regardless of irradiate. Way too much stimming and lings on the way. An irradiate isn't going to kill or damage enough of the muta's to hold it back, it wasn't like it was close after. It wasn't close at all.
Remember that when defending Flash would be targeting the top muta, so aside from turret damage the other muta's in the stack would have reasonably good health. There was no way they suffered enough extra damage from the small period of harass that they would be weak enough to retreat after irradiate.
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Anyone remember game one from the Korean air osl finals S2?
Jaedong was on the ragged edge on his defense of his third, and then the defiler came out, without energy and consume. Jaedong lost.
Same thing happened here, considering he may as well have not researched irridate.
The stim fail was kind of suicide in it's own right/
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Japan11286 Posts
Just watched the vod. It was over even if the irradiate hit a full health muta. Just a moment after the irradiate, the mutas destroyed the remaining marines and then the zerglings went in.
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On May 07 2011 11:04 Release wrote:
Anyone remember game one from the Korean air osl finals S2?
Jaedong was on the ragged edge on his defense of his third, and then the defiler came out, without energy and consume. Jaedong lost.
Same thing happened here, considering he may as well have not researched irridate.
The stim fail was kind of suicide in it's own right/
Jaedong had consume. The defiler died immediately after it consumed a unit.
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Just watched the game,
I think Flash would have died regardless of how well that irradiate came off, the build is quite interesting in its own way though, hopefully we'll see it used more effectively.
Considering the lings issue, I wonder if Flash might incorporate building 1vulture before add-on rather than tank to deal with them.
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On May 08 2011 01:44 Armathai wrote:
Just watched the game,
I think Flash would have died regardless of how well that irradiate came off, the build is quite interesting in its own way though, hopefully we'll see it used more effectively.
Considering the lings issue, I wonder if Flash might incorporate building 1vulture before add-on rather than tank to deal with them.
There's many games where Terran go Science Vessel rush to reasonable success. Nothing too innovative that we missed out on here, just a standard loss. I think playing against the legend killer is getting to Flash and he is making mistakes he wouldn't normally make. All a part of Jaedong's power, even if he has a lower winrate than Flash vs normal players, he is still capable of embarrassing God. I always like how much romance it adds to the game when players fulfill their nicknames.
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Flash's build is to fragile. Relies too much on luck in my opinion.
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Flash lost because of his overstim and his unlucky irradiate.
To me, he was in a solid position as long as he placed maybe one marine in that bunker (which was empty wtf?) and hadn't stimmed so readily.
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On May 07 2011 06:11 11cc wrote:Nah. This is nothing compared to power outage. This is more like the game where jaedong lost pathetically after forgetting to research consume, but would've surely won easily otherwise.
Are you applying the consume failure=JD's downfall to Flash in this game? ...because flash would likely still have lost even if he had gotten the irradiate off on a full-health muta afaik
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On May 07 2011 09:56 krzych113 wrote:
I got shivers after watching this game, for me Jaedong is just tremendous
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There was no luck involved in this game.
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I've been trying out this build on ladder.
I'm not any good (only C-/C max), but the build has a lot of potential at these levels. Zergs just don't expect science vessels this fast, and it's relatively safe...even against lings, granted you place bunkers well and all that.
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On May 07 2011 09:56 krzych113 wrote:
I got shivers after watching this game, for me Jaedong is just tremendous
That's what she said...
Anyways, watching JD (especially triumphing over Flash) is instantaneously a highlight of my day.
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I was shocked that Flash died to the mutas. But Jaedong plays beastly the recent games.
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just rewatched the game. Its 100% flash already lost. amazing how good jaedong were at forcing stims and how antsy flash was. 2 marines died even when he was shooting an SCV.
Pretty crazy
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Just a little note, after a little testing, this is what I have at the moment for a tentative build that Flash used:
9 supply
11 rax
16 cc
18 supply
18 refinery
22 supply
25 factory (transfer)
31 academy
32 starport (machine shop on factory)
36 supply
36 refinery
38 stim/comsats/science facility
40 ebay/2nd rax
44 marine range + science vessel
50 irradiate
@100 gas tank
If people want to try it out go ahead. I've had pretty good success with the Zergs as I've moved up to C- level.
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On May 09 2011 21:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:
I've been trying out this build on ladder.
I'm not any good (only C-/C max), but the build has a lot of potential at these levels. Zergs just don't expect science vessels this fast, and it's relatively safe...even against lings, granted you place bunkers well and all that.
I'm gonna have my friends play this build against me sometime soon. Seems strong and like you said relatively safe. Flash's irradiate was unlucky, but a few more turrets and it looks like you would be able to defend against quite a bit, more than people are giving it credit for.
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On May 13 2011 14:41 0mgVitaminE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 21:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:
I've been trying out this build on ladder.
I'm not any good (only C-/C max), but the build has a lot of potential at these levels. Zergs just don't expect science vessels this fast, and it's relatively safe...even against lings, granted you place bunkers well and all that. I'm gonna have my friends play this build against me sometime soon. Seems strong and like you said relatively safe. Flash's irradiate was unlucky, but a few more turrets and it looks like you would be able to defend against quite a bit, more than people are giving it credit for.
People forget not everyone has the muta micro of JAEDONG
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i think in general, JD is too good for this build.. flash just had faaaarrr to few mm/turrets to deal with aggression from JD, but more impotantly, he had far too small an army to exert map control. if the irr was a win, flash would'v had a bit of time to regroup, but jd could easily get 2 groups of lings and scourge in no time. if flash tried to move out, he would scourge those vessels so bad it wouldn't even be funny.. with less than 2 groups of mm, there's no way, imo, he'd really be able to stop the ling sac and with vessels down, he's back to square one with JDs 4th wasily takable.
another point about the 6 stims.. with so few mm/turrets, flash has no choice but to stim every time because he didn't have enough defence to cover his base. with the build that flash went, its easy to se the heavy gas nature, but tally up the min of fac+port+tower+sci fac+irr research+vessel.. thats all minerals that would be pumped into rax and mm, ie defence against muta and map control, and a tvz w/out, map control mid game is pretty futile against the best zvt in the world..
edit: tbh, imo this is exacty what day9 means when he talks about "counter builds"; they just dont stand up against solid play.
a wc3->bw lesson comes to mind: there are no heroes in bw.
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So an update on the build.
Based on how fast I can tech to vessels without dying, the science vessel pops at 7:15.
Something to think about?
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On May 13 2011 22:11 Zergneedsfood wrote:
So an update on the build.
Based on how fast I can tech to vessels without dying, the science vessel pops at 7:15.
Something to think about?
not if you're sacrificing 1/2 to 3/4 of the army you'd normally have at that time. which is more or less why flash lost, not counting the failed irradiate. without back up, all spellcasters in bw are just snipe fodder.
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On May 14 2011 06:56 DarkSaieden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 22:11 Zergneedsfood wrote:
So an update on the build.
Based on how fast I can tech to vessels without dying, the science vessel pops at 7:15.
Something to think about? not if you're sacrificing 1/2 to 3/4 of the army you'd normally have at that time. which is more or less why flash lost, not counting the failed irradiate. without back up, all spellcasters in bw are just snipe fodder.
I think you're a bit off. You don't necessarily sacrifice half of your army. Instead you're supplementing a relatively smaller MNM group with a science vessel with irradiate.
So Flash made a mistake, that's fine, I'll concede, since it happened. ^^ But I'm just saying that the build at the moment looks solid because while you do have less of an mnm group, you don't have so little to the point where you're going to be owned by mutaliskuuuu.
I'd just like to quote Stylish: "Just because a Progamer loses with a build, it doesn't mean that the build is bad."
Also, I'd like to point out that this build can be surprisingly good against 2hatch lurker....and can potentially just hard counter a 3hatch lurker opening.
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i'm not saying its not possible.. just that its far more of an uphill battle than its worth. like i said in my previous post, flash didn't have enough mm to cover his base. normally, t will have around 1.5-2 groups of rines and then about another small group gathering at his rally point when mutalisks arrive, and approx 7-10 turrets in key positions. but in flash's build, he had to settle with no more than 4 turrets and this is huge because the window of arrival is much less as 11 mutas can take 2 lonely turrets easily. compounding the issue is that he had so few mm because of delayed 2nd and 3rd rax (2nd rax when lair was done), so unable to spread across his main and nat, flash is forced to stim with every muta threat "just in case" and always with the same group of mm cos there is only one. but again, the prime issue i have with this build as that it gives up map control. sure the vessels would be useful against lurks later on, but there's no way he can irr them all, let alone the inevitable scourge.
imo even the 2 and 3 hatch lurker builds is also debatable.. you seem to be forgetting the role that lings play in these builds, and muta builds for that matter. it takes a solid amount of mm to nullify lings altogether, and i just dont think this build reaches those masses at the key points fast enough to able roam the map as every mm ball should be to stop zerg taking free exapnsions.
look again at the caption of the first screenshot.. "all the marines", and i count 11.
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EPT
