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Active: 14569 users

KT vs OZ : Flash vs JD

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Double T
Profile Joined May 2011
Poland25 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-07 11:09:56
May 06 2011 08:32 GMT
#1
Hello, I want to share my thoughts about latest Flash vs Jeadong game. I found it exciting not only because these players were facing each other, but also because of strategy employed by one of them. So here is my battle report and as good analysis as I could produce.

+ Show Spoiler [SPL Jaedong vs Flash 2011-05-03 @ Circ…] +

Jeadong starts at the bottom left as a zerg (surprise, surprise), and Flash spawns at the upper right (he gets terran for whatever reason).

Jeadong goes 12 hatch-12 pool, and Flash 1-Rax expands, and scouts Jeadong's third hatch. Jeadong's drones snap this scv few times when passing by, so when zerglings comes to quickly take it down, it has only 20 hp lef! It's worth mentioning, that J scouts with a drone too, finding Flash's position and backing off before marine at the front could pick it off. After killing initial terran scout Jeadong carefully denies any additional scouting, having one zergling in the front of terran natural and three at his own entrance.

To cut the long story short on zerg part, Jeadong goes three hatch muta behind four zerglings. What is most interesting for now, is Flash's build. It goes like this:
1Rax expo
Factory(!)
2nd Rax, academy
Starport(!)+ Ebay
Science Facility (!) + addon at the Starport, and at this timing first medics pops, and stim in the academy is being started!
And so Lair was ready at the time when 2nd Rax just went under construction! We were to see direct tech to vessels vs three hatch muta. Might it work?

Jeadong places his spire at creep of his third hatch, and when his 9 mutas go into air to bring death to all non-zerg (and not-controlled by Tyrant) living creatures, he expands at the bottom right. When JD gets to his opponent's base, he sees overall four turrets total in two spots (he does not bother going to the natural minerals), he makes Flash stim couple of times, making him wasting medic energy, and finds an opportunity to demolish upper two turrets, in the meantime reinforcing mutas to 11 total. I guess when Tyrant realized there is only about 10 marines, he pumped few more zerglings to attack on the ground.
[image loading]
All the marines

Now the most important moment in the game: after loosing last two turrets in the main, Flash gets enough energy to irradiate, and he uses it... in vain! [image loading]
It didn't last longer than this screenshot

Infected muta dies immediately, so quickly that JD had no time to react against it! In fact, he even didn't realize he was irradiated, as came out in the post game interview![interview] Then zerglings made it to the natural, and it was pretty much over, next irradiate was pointless, and a tank-scv combo doesn't seem to do too well against mutas with zergling support... Flash taps out.

At first glance it seemed to be a one-sided ownage, stompage and fury of Tyrant unleashed at an innocent terran. But I think it was way closer, than it looked like. Why?

What went wrong.
Okay, Flash's gameplan is pretty obvious: get irradiate, deal with muta with extreme prejudice. The thing is, this Irradiate didn't work. Just imagine what would happen should irradiation landed on a healthy mutalisk: JD would be forced to back off and split. He's so good with this, the damage would be minimum, but still, some would be applied, and few second to rebuilt a turret, heal marines, pop two more, two since vessels in the air... and we would see strong defense overall.

Key thing in this built is the very first irradiation, and this time the key missed it lock.

But there was one more mistake Flash did, I believe. Like against Effort in the 5th set of the OSL, he did not walled. Even if first radiation had went as planned, JD had a good chance to attack with zerglings and do the damage, especially if he would take mutalisks with them. I well remember that against Jeadong he did wall and he did win in the MSL just few days later. This wall+bunker (already in place!) would render lings useless in that place at this timing.
But maybe I exaggerate, and marines from the high ground could deal with this treat?

I see Flash's point in this build: with such fast vessels you would simply walk over any amount of lurkers zerg can produce to slow you down, and your push is game-ending, basically. It's risky, it's on the edge, but expect it to be used again, slightly refined and corrected. When it finally works on the stage, it could very well change the face of TvZ.

I shall wait for next FvsZ impatiently!


edit: due to suggestion below I add a link to the game: KT vs OZ set 2: F vs OZ.
jjhchsc2
Profile Joined December 2010
Korea (South)2393 Posts
May 06 2011 08:41 GMT
#2
There is a discussion on this in the PR thread.

On-topic.
Didnt flash get a second vessel as well?
if so why did he get the second vessel( just to cast more irradiates or to just stock for the future?)
Lee Ssang/ Lee Shin/ Kim Jung Woo/ Kim Min Chul/Jun Tae Yang/Park Soo Ho/Lee Jung Hoon/Choi Sung Hoon/ Moon Sung Won/Park Ji Soo/ Lee Ho Joon/ Jang Min Chul/ Kim Seung Chul/SaSe/IdrA/Ret Fighting! BW4Life
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 11:34:57
May 06 2011 11:27 GMT
#3
I think Flash was already dead before the first irradiate
Brood War loyalist
GG.NoRe
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)1051 Posts
May 06 2011 11:59 GMT
#4
On May 06 2011 20:27 meegrean wrote:
I think Flash was already dead before the first irradiate


Agree. JD made him stim 6x iirc. Those marines were already zombies by the time the mutaling push came
DONGJWA!
alypse
Profile Joined May 2010
2784 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 12:20:24
May 06 2011 12:19 GMT
#5
Totally agree with OP. JD won this game easily due to luck. The Irradiate that disappeared in less than a second is the crucial turning point of the game. Flash's build relied so much on the vessel's irradiate - and when it failed due to bad luck, everything is over.
KT Violet 1988 - 2012
legaton
Profile Joined December 2010
France1763 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 12:24:46
May 06 2011 12:20 GMT
#6
On May 06 2011 17:41 jjhchsc2 wrote:
There is a discussion on this in the PR thread.

On-topic.
Didnt flash get a second vessel as well?
if so why did he get the second vessel( just to cast more irradiates or to just stock for the future?)


The fast vessel build offers you a strong middle game transition because of the extra vessels you have to complement your bionic force. Getting more vessels is the objective of this build. And he got the second vessel, and a second irradiate.

To complement the analysis: Flash had 4 marines in a bunker to defend the natural, but the muta harass was so effective he used them to defend the main (at that point, he had like 3 marines and 3 medics in the main). Jaedong's timing was top notch, as soon as the marines left the natural, 6 or 8 lings were already in the ramp. That's why the first irradiate wasn't so important. Jaedong could sacrifice his mutas in exchange of destroying the natural and SCVs in the natural.

Edit: Very nice second post!
No GG, No Skill - Jaedong <3
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-06 13:21:16
May 06 2011 13:12 GMT
#7
How many times do I have to say this:

Flash stimmed 6 times

6 times

His marines might aswell have been plagued at that point, yes the irradiate would matter but he would still lose. Notice in the game how flash perfectly microes his hurt marines to the back, ultimately leading to his downfall as Jaedong his mutalisks suddenly burst down 4-5 marines and then dive in to take out the rest.
WriterXiao8~~
loveeholicce
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Korea (South)785 Posts
May 06 2011 13:47 GMT
#8
On May 06 2011 21:19 alypse wrote:
Totally agree with OP. JD won this game easily due to luck. The Irradiate that disappeared in less than a second is the crucial turning point of the game. Flash's build relied so much on the vessel's irradiate - and when it failed due to bad luck, everything is over.


I agree / disagree. He won the game easily due to luck, but he was definitely in a commanding position even without that luck, the game would just probably have gone on longer and flash wouldnt have instantly died. Still, flashs marines were already extremely weak and I dont feel 1 irradiate would have repelled the muta harass enough to save flash's marine count
상처받은 그대에 가슴에 사랑을 심어줄께요♥
Legatus Lanius
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
2135 Posts
May 06 2011 14:05 GMT
#9
tbh even if he landed an irradiate on a full hp muta and jaedong didnt split them, his marines would've been toasted by the mutaling anyway. they were half dead before the irradiate got off
"He's the Triple H of Brood War." - Ribbon on Flash | "He's more like the John Cena of Brood War." - Aus)MaCrO on Flash
alypse
Profile Joined May 2010
2784 Posts
May 06 2011 15:03 GMT
#10
On May 06 2011 22:47 loveeholicce wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2011 21:19 alypse wrote:
Totally agree with OP. JD won this game easily due to luck. The Irradiate that disappeared in less than a second is the crucial turning point of the game. Flash's build relied so much on the vessel's irradiate - and when it failed due to bad luck, everything is over.


I agree / disagree. He won the game easily due to luck, but he was definitely in a commanding position even without that luck, the game would just probably have gone on longer and flash wouldnt have instantly died. Still, flashs marines were already extremely weak and I dont feel 1 irradiate would have repelled the muta harass enough to save flash's marine count


It's easy to feel that JD was in a commanding position when everything we saw was a rape with mutas+lings owning poor marines. But as the OP said, if the Irradiate was successful, things could have been different. Right before the irradiate landed, Flash had 5 marines with 3 medics in his main, plus 4 full health marines coming to defend from his nat. That's 8/9 marines+3 medics against irradiated mutas (which still would have lost a significant HP should JD split well). JD would definitely have to pull his mutas back. Now for the lings... As you can see from the VOD when the mutas killed the MM force on high ground, the lings - 10 units total - still have not arrived at the ramp. Flash had a lot of SCVs mining at his nat - he would definitely pull all those workers to block the ramp - which he actually did - and help the MMs kill off those guys. That's perfectly possible - go watch the VOD to confirm this - with SCVs blocking the way, MM on high ground would have taken good care of those 10 lings. And not to mention he would have 2 more marines poping out at this point. And a tank about to finish, and time to build more turrets, and so on...

Of course this is speculation and I'm not saying Flash would certainly win if he held against that attack. But Flash must definitely have practiced this with Action/CH for quite some times. He knew the build is viable - and especially against JD, whom he said that he always feels nervous when playing against, he wouldn't have done it if he felt insecure about it. To conclude, my point here remains the same: the first Irradiate plays a crucial role in this game.
KT Violet 1988 - 2012
Yferi
Profile Joined April 2010
United States90 Posts
May 06 2011 15:21 GMT
#11
To those saying that Jaedong won due to luck: Whether or not the mutas died to irradiate or not doesn't matter... at that point, JD was on 3 bases and Flash had 2 rax, barely any m&m, 2 vessels, and no econ. JD already won before that point. What Flash did then really doesn't matter.
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
May 06 2011 16:16 GMT
#12
jaedong won because of flashes mistakes, not luck. and the irridiate didnt matter, if the muta hadnt died jd wouldve taken some damage, split the muta, and still overwhelmed flashes defence.
aka DragOn[NaS]
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
May 06 2011 20:03 GMT
#13
On May 06 2011 20:59 GG.NoRe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2011 20:27 meegrean wrote:
I think Flash was already dead before the first irradiate


Agree. JD made him stim 6x iirc. Those marines were already zombies by the time the mutaling push came


Yup, low energy and low health.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
Yxes2211
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1587 Posts
May 06 2011 20:28 GMT
#14
I think the reason JD won that game, was cuz he was Brown Zerg vs Blue Terran again, just like the Group D win. Had nothing to do with skill, just color
Jaedong and Baby
WWJDD
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
India342 Posts
May 06 2011 20:29 GMT
#15
This is the new Power Outage.
WWJDD??
Yxes2211
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1587 Posts
May 06 2011 20:38 GMT
#16
On May 07 2011 05:29 WWJDD wrote:
This is the new Power Outage.


lol
Jaedong and Baby
SilentCrono
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1420 Posts
May 06 2011 21:07 GMT
#17
shouldve put the vod in the OP. just a suggestion ^^
♞ Your soul will forever be lost in the void of a horse. ♞
11cc
Profile Joined May 2008
Finland561 Posts
May 06 2011 21:11 GMT
#18
On May 07 2011 05:29 WWJDD wrote:
This is the new Power Outage.


Nah. This is nothing compared to power outage. This is more like the game where jaedong lost pathetically after forgetting to research consume, but would've surely won easily otherwise.
primebeef
Profile Joined October 2010
United States140 Posts
May 06 2011 21:55 GMT
#19
flash got off a irradiate on a muta that died instantly, he would have been fine for a while longer if it was on a full health muta.
xxpack09
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2160 Posts
May 06 2011 22:09 GMT
#20
On May 06 2011 20:27 meegrean wrote:
I think Flash was already dead before the first irradiate


I agree with this. Once Jaedong broke down those 2 turrets, the game was over. Flash's marine count was just too low, he had to stall jaedong's mutas until he could get irradiate and a healthy-sized marine ball, and JD just ee han timing'd his marines
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