Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Protoss doesn't do a forward gateway+Gate-FE every game because of how bad it is vs a fact-expand (FD). Otherwise forward Gate+Gate-FE is possibly the best counter to Rax-FE. Also I imagine that almost all Protosses will be doing forward Gates on Aztec, because getting contained at the reverse ramp by a bunker means GG for Protoss.
Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Protoss doesn't do a forward gateway+Gate-FE every game because of how bad it is vs a fact-expand (FD). Otherwise forward Gate+Gate-FE is possibly the best counter to Rax-FE. Also I imagine that almost all Protosses will be doing forward Gates on Aztec, because getting contained at the reverse ramp by a bunker means GG for Protoss.
Forward gate like that also stops terrans who try to proxy rax by their minonly ie Fantasy and Ssak. (perfectman vs ssak is one example)
Following up the forward gate with 2gate goon range also works well and has potential to straight up kill the terran or inflict severe damage with decent micro.
On April 11 2011 03:29 salito wrote: You failed to mention Flash's build, which was 5 fact. Flash would never use that on a balanced map. Flash felt the urge to end it quickly because Aztec is completely unplayable in the late-game.
Now in regards to Flash's execution, Flash merely went for a contain rather than the kill. This made little sense as his contain was when Bisu was on 4 bases and Flash on 2. I'm not sure why he did this, but I think it had something to do with the 6-7 vultures he lost for no gain just before he pushed out.
As far as the early zealot pressure went, it was clever from Bisu to find a weakness to rax cc. Most terrans would have just died. But Flash handled it ridiculously well and I don't think it had that large of an effect on the game. Flash's nat cc was running much earlier than Bisu's.
TLDR: 5 fact execution too passive.
I definitely would not call that build a 5 fact. Watch the game again, and look at Flash's factory timing. After his first tank gets out and his natural is relatively secure, he adds two factories, and then an armory, and a starport. By the time Bisu's obs gets in his base (the part where Flash scans it and snipes it with goliaths), his fourth factory is still building. At the point where he pushes out of his base to set up his tank line, his fifth factory has just recently started.
I think he lost for several reasons. Firstly, the initial zealot harass. Sure, Bisu lost 4 (or 5?) zealots, but he delayed Flash's mining, killed quite a few SCVs and marines, and forced Flash to build more marines than he wanted to. If Flash can get away with building just two or three marines and putting them in the bunker, then he is going into the midgame very comfortably.
Also, Flash teched hard, and quite unnecessarily in my opinion. After his first three factories, he added an armory, starport, scans, and a science facility. All for what? This tech only let him not die to DTs, and snipe a few observers. Big deal. Once those two DTs and observers were dead, Flash was just sitting there awkwardly with this tech he didn't need. In addition, he wasted three scans just to kill a 1 observer and 2 DTs. These three scans would be much better if they were on Bisu's base to see what he was doing. Anyways, after sniping the observer, the goliaths were basically useless, and the Science Vessels did nothing except let Flash snipe a few observers.
A few things to notice about the Science Vessels: 1.) That one gets sniped by about 5 goons. Epic move by Bisu. Very unfortunate for Flash. 2.) All of Flash's Science Vessels that he made in the entire game cast a total of 2 spells: 1 EMP on some random group of zealots, and a Defensive Matrix on a tank. Both of these were as he was defending his third, not during his initial push. He wasn't even using his Science Vessels for vision. When Bisu shut down Flash's push, Flash was using turrets and scan to see Bisu's cloaked units. There were no vessels in sight.
My point is, when you spend that much money on tech and it does nothing, there's no way that it can be good for you.
oh my goodness. i have had so much difficulty with 1 rax expanding against this forward gate that delays the gas to get the natural up much faster.
its just so hard to combat against the zealot because you really need to have clutch micro, possibly delay your cc for a bunker and it doesn't really affect p that much. this is definately a hard counter to 1 rax fe. great play by bisu
As for the map imba... does anyone else find it ironic that toss has such an advantage on aztec? ...yknow, it's kinda like the conquistadors vs the hispanic natives with the invaders of earth taking over human civilization
On April 11 2011 11:24 Taekwon wrote: As for the map imba... does anyone else find it ironic that toss has such an advantage on aztec? ...yknow, it's kinda like the conquistadors vs the hispanic natives with the invaders of earth taking over human civilization
On April 11 2011 10:35 DTK-m2 wrote: Also, Flash teched hard, and quite unnecessarily in my opinion. After his first three factories, he added an armory, starport, scans, and a science facility. All for what? This tech only let him not die to DTs, and snipe a few observers. Big deal. Once those two DTs and observers were dead, Flash was just sitting there awkwardly with this tech he didn't need. In addition, he wasted three scans just to kill a 1 observer and 2 DTs. These three scans would be much better if they were on Bisu's base to see what he was doing. Anyways, after sniping the observer, the goliaths were basically useless, and the Science Vessels did nothing except let Flash snipe a few observers.
A few things to notice about the Science Vessels: 1.) That one gets sniped by about 5 goons. Epic move by Bisu. Very unfortunate for Flash. 2.) All of Flash's Science Vessels that he made in the entire game cast a total of 2 spells: 1 EMP on some random group of zealots, and a Defensive Matrix on a tank. Both of these were as he was defending his third, not during his initial push. He wasn't even using his Science Vessels for vision. When Bisu shut down Flash's push, Flash was using turrets and scan to see Bisu's cloaked units. There were no vessels in sight.
My point is, when you spend that much money on tech and it does nothing, there's no way that it can be good for you.
To be fair, I feel like given Flash's gameplan, it actually *was* necessary for him to tech that way. Bisu got DTs, and Flash chose to skip turrets in order to get a fast armory and Goliath, which overall saves him money in defending from drop harass, but also makes it so that Bisu can easily fuck up an early push by Flash without vessels by sending in DTs one at a time. Given that he was unwilling to sacrifice some economy to get turrets, he basically was forced to get the Science Vessel, and Bisu perhaps predicted this and cleverly stopped getting DTs after his first pair.
I'd say that one of his major mistakes was using those two scans to kill that observer, given that it really wasn't seeing anything particularly crucial, such as factory count. Those were scans needed to scan Bisu's bases and DTs if Flash chose to push, but after he used them up he pretty much had to 1) wait for turrets, 2) use Science Vessel, and he'd already chosen to skip 1, and so as mentioned in the previous paragraph, it was a forced choice. Not ideal, but Flash doesn't have maphack to know that Bisu had stopped using DTs. Or, he used up his maphack for a silly observer.
Basically, Flash's Science Vessels were a waste that game, but that was because of smart play by Bisu, using the threat of DTs to force the response, and then doing nothing more. It would be like faking someone into building a ton of Goliaths by building a Fleet Beacon, but actually going for a full ground army.
On April 11 2011 05:50 infinity2k9 wrote: We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
that's because T>>>Z maps were the norm so nobody batted a wink
On April 11 2011 05:50 infinity2k9 wrote: We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
that's because T>>>Z maps were the norm so nobody batted a wink
Yeah, haha.
Also, no Zerg has just absolutely owned the ZvT matchup the way Flash frequently makes top P's look absolutely helpless. That's why it's interesting when he loses, and especially in a game like this where he was clearly in deep trouble the entire time.
Part of it is that ZvT is, in my opinion, inherently a harder matchup to dominate to the degree Flash manages to dominate TvP, though I don't think it's any harder to merely be good at ZvT than it is to be good at TvP. Flash is able to exceed regular Terrans at decision making and game sense by so much that Protoss players simply can't prepare for him in practice.
On April 11 2011 04:12 guMmiwormz wrote: If you actually read up to here I'll talk about what Flash did wrong. First of all, the zealot harass. For his skill, Flash should not have lost as much as he did. There were a couple times where if he had reacted a split second earlier, he would've saved a marine or two. Meanwhile Bisu just rallied zealots at little to no cost while taking his expansion. This in itself just broke Flash's whole plan. From there I would have advised him to switch to just the most turtling he's ever done, but he decided to go on with his plan, which wasn't necessarily a bad one.
You know zealots are just as fast as marines.. The top level terrans arent idiots, they know how to micro. However it isnt possible to kite marines against zealots due to the equal speed, and necessity to use scvs to even attempt to slow the zealots down a little.
On April 11 2011 05:50 infinity2k9 wrote: We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
that's because T>>>Z maps were the norm so nobody batted a wink
Yeah, haha.
Also, no Zerg has just absolutely owned the ZvT matchup the way Flash frequently makes top P's look absolutely helpless. That's why it's interesting when he loses, and especially in a game like this where he was clearly in deep trouble the entire time.
Part of it is that ZvT is, in my opinion, inherently a harder matchup to dominate to the degree Flash manages to dominate TvP, though I don't think it's any harder to merely be good at ZvT than it is to be good at TvP. Flash is able to exceed regular Terrans at decision making and game sense by so much that Protoss players simply can't prepare for him in practice.
Umm yellow[arnc] was known for his insane zvt. savior during his reign made all the terrans look like scrubs
the reason why people find it so interesting/enjoyable when flash loses or any terran for that matter is because the way terran wins is generally boring: a slow fatass ball moving its way towards the enemy base while they sit there helpless.
although to be fair to terran these proleague maps have been pretty unfavourable this season. aztec, bloody ridge and icarus. and let's not forget central plains -.- (before they replaced it with freaking BR)
On April 11 2011 05:50 infinity2k9 wrote: We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
that's because T>>>Z maps were the norm so nobody batted a wink
Yeah, haha.
Also, no Zerg has just absolutely owned the ZvT matchup the way Flash frequently makes top P's look absolutely helpless. That's why it's interesting when he loses, and especially in a game like this where he was clearly in deep trouble the entire time.
Part of it is that ZvT is, in my opinion, inherently a harder matchup to dominate to the degree Flash manages to dominate TvP, though I don't think it's any harder to merely be good at ZvT than it is to be good at TvP. Flash is able to exceed regular Terrans at decision making and game sense by so much that Protoss players simply can't prepare for him in practice.
Umm yellow[arnc] was known for his insane zvt. savior during his reign made all the terrans look like scrubs
the reason why people find it so interesting/enjoyable when flash loses or any terran for that matter is because the way terran wins is generally boring: a slow fatass ball moving its way towards the enemy base while they sit there helpless.
although to be fair to terran these proleague maps have been pretty unfavourable this season. aztec, bloody ridge and icarus. and let's not forget central plains -.- (before they replaced it with freaking BR)
There are more maps where T>Z than those where T<Z. In fact if you look at winners league statistics, clearly Zerg has been the underdog, getting mauled by both the protoss and terran who in turn have been kind of equal(with terran perhaps ahead due to how brutal their dominance over zerg has been)
On April 11 2011 10:35 DTK-m2 wrote: Also, Flash teched hard, and quite unnecessarily in my opinion. After his first three factories, he added an armory, starport, scans, and a science facility. All for what? This tech only let him not die to DTs, and snipe a few observers. Big deal. Once those two DTs and observers were dead, Flash was just sitting there awkwardly with this tech he didn't need. In addition, he wasted three scans just to kill a 1 observer and 2 DTs. These three scans would be much better if they were on Bisu's base to see what he was doing. Anyways, after sniping the observer, the goliaths were basically useless, and the Science Vessels did nothing except let Flash snipe a few observers.
A few things to notice about the Science Vessels: 1.) That one gets sniped by about 5 goons. Epic move by Bisu. Very unfortunate for Flash. 2.) All of Flash's Science Vessels that he made in the entire game cast a total of 2 spells: 1 EMP on some random group of zealots, and a Defensive Matrix on a tank. Both of these were as he was defending his third, not during his initial push. He wasn't even using his Science Vessels for vision. When Bisu shut down Flash's push, Flash was using turrets and scan to see Bisu's cloaked units. There were no vessels in sight.
My point is, when you spend that much money on tech and it does nothing, there's no way that it can be good for you.
To be fair, I feel like given Flash's gameplan, it actually *was* necessary for him to tech that way. Bisu got DTs, and Flash chose to skip turrets in order to get a fast armory and Goliath, which overall saves him money in defending from drop harass, but also makes it so that Bisu can easily fuck up an early push by Flash without vessels by sending in DTs one at a time. Given that he was unwilling to sacrifice some economy to get turrets, he basically was forced to get the Science Vessel, and Bisu perhaps predicted this and cleverly stopped getting DTs after his first pair.
I'd say that one of his major mistakes was using those two scans to kill that observer, given that it really wasn't seeing anything particularly crucial, such as factory count. Those were scans needed to scan Bisu's bases and DTs if Flash chose to push, but after he used them up he pretty much had to 1) wait for turrets, 2) use Science Vessel, and he'd already chosen to skip 1, and so as mentioned in the previous paragraph, it was a forced choice. Not ideal, but Flash doesn't have maphack to know that Bisu had stopped using DTs. Or, he used up his maphack for a silly observer.
Basically, Flash's Science Vessels were a waste that game, but that was because of smart play by Bisu, using the threat of DTs to force the response, and then doing nothing more. It would be like faking someone into building a ton of Goliaths by building a Fleet Beacon, but actually going for a full ground army.
No, I think it was more like he changed his mind halfway through, and attempted to do a timing push on the double expo rather than take a 3rd when he was still on 3 factories.
Yeah I think Flash really shouldn't have burned all those scans earlier. No scans, plus his lack of scouting => decision to tech hard to early upgraded goliaths and vessels in order to blind counter drops/DTs, and Bisu made a good decision to not actually make any more DTs or any harass in general making the tech pretty useless.
This led to what I saw as a weak contain. It had only 5 tanks initially with only 1 complete machine shop at the time of the push, with maybe 8 sieged tanks tops at the contain break, while Bisu is sitting on 4 base macroing a massive arbiter ground army. All that gas spent on tech = low gas for tanks, and it didn't help that all the tanks were spread out due to the nature of the contain.
And Bisu sniped the vessel anyway. lol
Also I'm going to give credit to Bisu here - how often can I say that I really liked Bisu's performance here given his history of weaker PvT? All his offense worked as intended, he won the scouting/mind games, and cleanly converted his advantage into a win.
This game can be compared with Jaehoon vs Fantasy in SWL
Flash did 1rax fe, fantasy did 1fact fe. Both guys got hit by heavy 1gate zealot pressure and suffered marine losses(fantasy didnt lose scvs though i think)
Flash expanded to second at 2:47 Flash made his fact at 4:28
Fantasy made his fact at 3:00 Fantasy expanded to second at 4:17
This difference in fact timing was critical to the course of both games.
While Flash was having his bunker pressured by goons at 7:00, fantasy had already laid mines to gain map control and Jaehoon was struggling to blind-clear them, allowing fantasy to take a fast third off two facts with clever tank placement(tank hidden behind tree + scvs repairing) and delay fourth of Jaehoon with vult harassment and mine at 4th.
Fantasy expanded to third at 6:50 Jaehoon expanded to third at 7:53
Bisu double expanded at 8:30
Conclusion: abuse imba fact units :p their power more than makes up for the delayed expansion.
Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Protoss doesn't do a forward gateway+Gate-FE every game because of how bad it is vs a fact-expand (FD). Otherwise forward Gate+Gate-FE is possibly the best counter to Rax-FE. Also I imagine that almost all Protosses will be doing forward Gates on Aztec, because getting contained at the reverse ramp by a bunker means GG for Protoss.
I agree that Factory first is safer, and better overall against non-standard early pushes, but I don't agree that forward Gateway or any other kind of early push is a counter to Rax CC. There are no offensive counters to Rax CC. If there were, Flash wouldn't have the highest matchup win rate since start of 2010, and Terran wouldn't be doing so good lately in general against Protoss. Flash's TvP is 48 wins - 11 losses (81.36%) and rax CC is basically the only opening he does. If that opening could be countered by early pressure, Flash wouldn't have that win rate.
If you're talking about lower level players you're right, but progamers like Flash knows where to place his buildings plus have good enough marine micro to deal with early zealots. With early aggression from Protoss, you can at best negate Rax CC and even the score, but you can't counter it offensively.
Bisu went 8 pylon, 9 gate (cutting a probe) with the intention of making at least one zealot. Flash went rax CC. Both players did this prior to scouting their respective opponents.
Flash scouted late and did not see zealots coming beforehand. Bisu continued pumping zealots in reaction to seeing Flash's rax CC (as he predicted). Flash took major damage and fell behind during this time.
Anything afterwards is Bisu securing the win with his advantage and Flash failing to make a comeback.
You could guess that Flash never wanted to play on Aztec but was forced due to KT's failure. It is unlikely that Flash had anything prepared for this map, so he just resorted to a build he was comfortable with.
On the other hand, Bisu's build was completely designed to exploit a vulnerability in Flash's usual play.
There is not much more you can conclude from this game; I don't get why people are seriously over-analyzing this.
Bisu really really showed fucking perfect form in busting Flash at the end. You can see in the VOD camera shows Bisu he basically jumping for joy in his seat when he knew he had game raped. The initial zeal harass was hard to follow but if you noticed the kills on his zeals they all had like 2-4. It was dirty dirty and awesome.
On April 11 2011 04:12 guMmiwormz wrote: If you actually read up to here I'll talk about what Flash did wrong. First of all, the zealot harass. For his skill, Flash should not have lost as much as he did. There were a couple times where if he had reacted a split second earlier, he would've saved a marine or two. Meanwhile Bisu just rallied zealots at little to no cost while taking his expansion. This in itself just broke Flash's whole plan. From there I would have advised him to switch to just the most turtling he's ever done, but he decided to go on with his plan, which wasn't necessarily a bad one.
You know zealots are just as fast as marines.. The top level terrans arent idiots, they know how to micro. However it isnt possible to kite marines against zealots due to the equal speed, and necessity to use scvs to even attempt to slow the zealots down a little.
Thats why every terran has a sim city. There were multiple times when Flash could have pulled his marines through the sim city and saved a few marines, but he didn't.The only time when you need scvs is when the zealots avoid the sim city and in this case, move down the ramp. Flash's micro was far from perfect that game. The
EPT
