EPTWill be reading this during my 12 hour shift. Thanks for the write up Ver.
[G] How to Improve - Page 2
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Silentness
United States2821 Posts
Will be reading this during my 12 hour shift. Thanks for the write up Ver. | ||
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ironcell
Chile1127 Posts
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poboxy
Canada48 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
I think watching VODs and acquiring replays is the only way to meaningfully fill this gap (Liquipedia can't hold your hand forever), but sad as it is to say - Liquipedia just isn't what it could be. Most TL users probably don't feel qualified to comment on inadequate articles - and aside from your work on the Terran articles, I'm not aware of any user that has made significant contributions. That said, it isn't fair to accuse players (say, D-C range) of being gimmicky or shortsighted when the resources they have are not up to date, are not comprehensive, and don't offer suggestions for when "your opponent perfectly counters your predictable build." The advice is always, practice practice practice and your mechanics will make up for it. Frankly, I'm not interested in emulating Flash's robotic macro - but I would like to get a feel for the strategic options at my disposal. For example, playing against yellow-rank opponents I know my only chance to win is with predictable solid play. But achieving a meaningful win rate at this level takes hours of routine practice that I just don't have the time to maintain. I've found cheese strategies a fun way to mix things up, but I also like to explore the full depth of options, just so I know I'm not playing into what my opponent expects and is ready to exploit - sometimes I'm the one that gets the upper hand. This may not get me to a high rank any time soon, but at least I'm not wearing out my hands, my mind, and my love for the game. Or another example, I open predictable TvP siege expand FE and my opponent does a 1gate FE into a greedy 3rd (1gate) seeing that I'm just doing mah build order. I should add a quick 2nd fac (or Stylish's 3fac is good here too I think) and make a "fac-cc-fac" push... but I won't even read about this situation or counter-strategy on Liquipedia (it's in the forums though, thanks to Idra's commentary). The majority of Liquipedia articles are similarly vague in their notion of what your options are and how you can respond. So I'll just die when my 3base timing push is outnumbered. Now I can mass a hundred games and "figure it out" but it would be simpler if someone just told me up front that Protoss is being greedy here. Practicing and mass gaming are important to improvement and intuition, but there is no need to hit our heads against brick walls just because information isn't in the open. I'll wrap this up short and just summarize that I think your critique of weaker players should be more focused on their ignorance of educational resources that clearly demonstrate ways to improve, instead of attacking what you perceive to be intellectual malaise (probably the case for many noobies) and greed to find a quick gimmicky win (who doesn't like easy wins?). A lot of players want to get better but are afraid they need insane apm, think practicing one build a hundred times is boring, or just don't know what to read on Liquipedia ("so many historically significant 2facs to choose from..."). I know we've had this discussion several times now, and one thread made a good attempt at reasoning the full range of strategic options in a match - hardly any high level players took the time to drop some advice and the project turned into more of a scavenger hunt through preexisting threads. What I'm trying to say here is that TL has many small threads that relate to certain situations, and Liquipedia should represent all of this collective wisdom when in fact it is a project far from complete. Getting this information organized and well-documented will do far more to improve players than insulting their work ethic. | ||
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MisteR
Netherlands595 Posts
I do hope that you will change your views on Horang2 by the way, since he is really stepping up his game. Also, I'm interested whether you think a player like Kwanro is bad. I see terrans often have only appreciation for a good late game, when it seems reasonable to me that in a sport like this both early and late game are equally important. In fencing you've got the same differentation as in starcraft: three weapons, foil, epee and sabre. In practice foil is the defensive weapon, sabre the offensive and epee is in between, terran, zerg and protoss, respectively. Now my point is, that the way an epee fencer should learn his game, is in many points different from that of a sabre or foil fencer. Not only the technical aspect, which is obvious, but also the mental aspect. Playing zerg really good, requires a different mindset from playing terran or protoss. What I notice on this website is a bias for the playstyle of terrans. While that's ok, it does mean that the protoss and zerg players often get a lack of respect. Players like Horang2 and Shine, who are both mentioned in your work, are actually better than you give hem credit for. It is really hard to constantly beat your opponent in the early game, when he knows you're coming. Look at Arjen Robben in the WC and how he constantly was able to beat his man and try for a shot with his left leg. Same principle. And it is also deserving of respect when Horang2 comes out with another amazing cheese, that somehow allows him to dictate to way the game is played. To make another WC reference, look at midfield playmakers like Verron from Argentina or Xavi/Xavi Alonso/Fabregas from Spain. They seem lazy ass players who only pass the ball around, but somehow it is always one of them that gives the deciding pass. Though I can recognize quality when I see it, I can't actually use this excellent guide all that much, since I'm not a terran user. It would be interesting whether this could be replicated for a broader public, but it might just be impossible to cater to all audiences. Anyway, I'm sure many people will be helped by it, and to be honest I've found quite a few interesting thoughts, so take what I just said with a grain of salt, please  | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
For zerg, the last good writer for zerg was Tsunami and that's all 1.07/early 1.08 era stuff so pretty much you're on your own for zerg and you'll have to get by watching vods/reps for the most part =[ | ||
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Silentness
United States2821 Posts
I was hoping for more advanced Terran information. | ||
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
On July 14 2010 18:40 Silentness wrote: I read the PDF... it was pretty much everything I already knew. I found Oov's "gotta rape" quote entertaining, but nothing in there that I haven't had told to me a thousand times. I was hoping for more advanced Terran information. maybe consider that you aren't the target audience then? I mean, it's "How to improve", not "the details of Terran strategy". @ Mister: I think you missed the point with the bit about Horang2. Well-designed "Creative" or "Aggressive" plays are a good way to win individual games, but focusing on such plays is not a good way to improve at all. You can say that Horang2 and Shine have valid styles (this is debatable), but they are not good styles to emulate if you are serious about developing as a player. This isn't a Terran bias, either. Horang2 and Shine aren't respected because they tend to fall apart whenever the game enters mid-late game on even footing, not because they play Protoss and Zerg. (Horang2 seems to have tightened up his play considerably, but back when he was known for doing random cheeses he really was quite a bad player.) It's about the developing the skillset which supports stability, low variance, and versatility. | ||
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nbaker
United States1341 Posts
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Esper[mb]
United States88 Posts
thx alot man | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
@mmp- I agree Liquipedia is far from what it could be. The user impetus, especially from other players with a good understanding, simply isn't there. We tried to figure out solutions but there was too much apathy in general to contributing and in the end came up blank. At time there was a drive to collect advice from top strategy forum posters but we simply lacked motivated personal and it fizzled. As for the rest, I'm rather confused. The resources they have at their disposal are incredible, namely TLPD. That alone is enough, but that's not all. Day9's podcasts, and more importantly his strategic analyses are great assets for forming a mental framework and refining it. Then you have the forum posts and while most contributions in the forum frankly aren't very helpful, there definitely are some gold mines. When I was learning I didn't have anyone like Day, Idra, or myself to help out, just pro vods and replays of a select few players and a bunch of second-rate explanations, and I managed quite well in months. People now are swimming in riches to get through the toughest parts, but evidently its not helping much and I'm certain the approach is at fault. The strategic options at one's disposal are abundantly clear just from watching a select few player's games. You might say, 'well that takes a long time to watch 20 flash tvz's (even though you could just watch the openings and note what he does), but if you want to get good you need to watch those games anyways so why avoid it. Like I said in the guide you can't get good at an efficient rate without watching pro games. Of course there are faster ways of finding out and you should be making use of them (search the posts of people who give good advice maybe? start a thread?), but those are merely supplementary. The vast majority of foreigners, low or high level, simply do not make sufficient use of pro games, and they pay the price for it. Low level players do not have enough patterns stored, and high level players have no idea what they are doing. You seem to think that you can shortcut learning by finding correct explanations of everything, but sadly this is a trap; it just isn't that simple. You may find the answer to that problem very quickly but you will just run into another one that you need an answer to, and so on. It becomes a never-ending cycle because there is no greater framework to store it in. That is what happens to most strategy forum questions. People get an answer for one specific problem, then they run into something else. I've seen it happen dozens of times to my students and strategy forum goers. Like it or not there are going to be plateaus, but there will also be very large leaps. The way to circumvent this is by storing a large number of correct patterns over time (from watching pro games and playing). In the beginning it will be hard to make sense but as time goes on things will start to be clearer and soon after your learning will skyrocket because everything fits. For example for me right now, I can see a new strategy or concept and it will make sense within minutes, as if it just fits into place naturally. It may seem like this approach takes longer because you can't solve individual problems quickly in the start but it really is much quicker over the long run because you gain the ability to solve many problems instantly on your own and tie everything together. It certainly helps to look for specific answers as well (from the right sources) but forming correct patterns through watching pro games and playing the right way is not an option: it is a requirement. The rest of what you said is answered in the guide. This was too but it appears I might not have explained it well enough. @Mister- Gustav said it all. Race is irrelevant and this applies to other matchups just as easily (I play/study ZvT, not TvT btw). Look at the best players of every race right now, of every great player in history. Every single one was capable of defeating his opponents decisively in any phase of the game. They certainly could use allins, but they didn't have to. Julyzerg was a serious threat in the early game but he was still the strongest Zerg in the mid and late game as well. Effort won an OSL with ling allins and runbys but he is still a very fearsome late game player (as in the MSL game vs Flash). Ra had many creative allins and openings but he was also the best player at midgame timing attacks and was pretty much the only player to beat Savior in a late game PvZ. The list goes on and on. As for Horang2, sorry but I haven't had the time to pay serious attention to SC for about 6 months (the majority of this was written that long ago) so I'm not up to date on most things. As for Kwanro (at least how he was), he is simply a player with a low ceiling. Kwanro is never going to win a final in his present form no matter how lucky of a bracket he gets. He certainly has the ability to get wins but he isn't a complete player. @silentness- Really? That's quite surprising. I'm not sure what you were expecting then as this is an improvement guide, i,e how to improve rather than 'here are resources to use to improve.' If you want to ask some Terran analysis questions now go ahead I don't mind. But the principles of improving to very high levels will use the same principles and techniques as what I described; some things just become more important while others are already internalized. @everyone else- thank you for the kind words | ||
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pangshai
Chinatown5333 Posts
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
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SuperChad
Canada3 Posts
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duckett
United States589 Posts
thanks for this amazing article, and your help in the past | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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endieg
Germany49 Posts
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tOne
1 Post
Kudos to Ver | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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