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[G] How to Improve - Page 3

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Boomsheka
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3 Posts
July 23 2010 01:15 GMT
#41
Ver, What is your suggestion for people who are coming into Starcraft 2 without a BW background? I'm assuming they are going to have a tough time researching then translating BW skill over to Starcraft 2 skill since they barely know what they are seeing and there is very little Top Level Korean replays or players this early....How do they not fall into the trap of watching what appears to be a high level player who truly is not....worse yet how do we even know what's really good right now.
Rio
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Vietnam598 Posts
July 23 2010 02:07 GMT
#42
Thanks alot
This is awsome
What ever ---------------------------------------------------™
Tempora
Profile Joined July 2010
United States78 Posts
July 23 2010 04:40 GMT
#43
i should probably read this. but im gonna be playing SC2 now, not broodwar... should i read it anyways? xD
who macro's? real men 6 pool.
ArobAce
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2 Posts
July 26 2010 20:16 GMT
#44
Great guide, thanks for including VoDs!
Better to do the screwing then get screwed
Entaro[AoV]
Profile Joined July 2009
United States184 Posts
July 28 2010 09:24 GMT
#45
Ver... what do you do IRL.. because I wanna know how someone has the capacity to write so effectively on such an elusive topic.
TL+ Member
MaRiNe23
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States747 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-31 02:50:44
July 31 2010 02:48 GMT
#46
Ver what kind of style do you play in TvP? Do you have like a reppack or something of your tvp games?

You listed alot of tvp strategies but you didn't include fantasy's style which I feel is the only way to beat toss t.t.... I don't like playing flash style because you just like leave the protoss alone most of the time while he gets expos and 50 gateways and arbiter+templars ready and it just hasn't been working for me. Right when I move out with my army, they either recall when im halfway across the map or just rape me with storm and stasis and re-max in 2 minutes from their 50 gateways.

For these reasons I been trying to do the mass vulture harrass style of fantasy but you didn't include it in your guide and im just wondering if u forgot or u don't consider it a viable strategy? Also ur tvp reppack would be very helpful if u can. thx
We have competitive ladder, strong community, progaming in Korea going strong, perfectly balanced game..why do we need sc2? #1 ANTI-SC2 fan
HickleStine
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia276 Posts
July 31 2010 02:53 GMT
#47
On July 31 2010 11:48 MaRiNe23 wrote:
For these reasons I been trying to do the mass vulture harrass style of fantasy but you didn't include it in your guide and im just wondering if u forgot or u don't consider it a viable strategy? Also ur tvp reppack would be very helpful if u can. thx


It's the iloveoov build, Ver did include videos of it. Three of them have fantasy playing.
monosofo
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru2 Posts
July 31 2010 21:37 GMT
#48
Amazing. Thank you very much.
alsowikk
Profile Joined July 2010
109 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-01 02:39:33
August 01 2010 02:31 GMT
#49
God this is making me feel inferrior! I keep on trying to improve but, I can't get out of...bronze . I've got 3 problems, 1.general rush defence(I'm a terran) since the rushes are so delayed I can never get a handle for if I have enough units to hold or not, and 2. How to act against a turtleling enemy(bsides the genral out macro), 3. I need a strong build order vs p and t since...well I suck terribly.(I can't figure out how to start a thread...sorry!)
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-01 04:50:11
August 01 2010 04:35 GMT
#50
On August 01 2010 11:31 alsowikk wrote:
God this is making me feel inferrior! I keep on trying to improve but, I can't get out of...bronze . I've got 3 problems, 1.general rush defence(I'm a terran) since the rushes are so delayed I can never get a handle for if I have enough units to hold or not, and 2. How to act against a turtleling enemy(bsides the genral out macro), 3. I need a strong build order vs p and t since...well I suck terribly.(I can't figure out how to start a thread...sorry!)


Make a topic by logging in and clicking on the forum name (Like under the Starcraft 2 Strategy. When you click on this you will see the "Starcraft 2 Strategy" label on top with a red folder that says "New Topic". Post away!).

About your inquiry, what you should do, especially about early defense, is think of what you want to accomplish and try different things to accomplish this idea. The optimization is a "build order". The article suggests using old BW videos (or in your case, high level SC2 tournaments and streams) and getting your ideas from those people. Sure, it's more fun for some to think up their own, and that's a legitimate way of doing things, but if you're looking to improve really fast that's the way to go. Progamers have a lot of practice time to try ideas out. It's a shame we don't see the failed ideas so much, but by examining games from years ago we can see old styles, what they beat, and what beats them.

You don't need a "strong build order", you need a good idea, practice the mechanics of the idea, and then test it and see where you need to make adjustments.
Mobius
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1268 Posts
August 01 2010 12:51 GMT
#51
only page 18 so far, but its amazing!!
some of the info really suprised me ahah
thanks so much
Entusman #51
Gustav_Wind
Profile Joined July 2008
United States646 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-01 15:13:42
August 01 2010 15:09 GMT
#52
On July 31 2010 11:48 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Ver what kind of style do you play in TvP? Do you have like a reppack or something of your tvp games?

You listed alot of tvp strategies but you didn't include fantasy's style which I feel is the only way to beat toss t.t.... I don't like playing flash style because you just like leave the protoss alone most of the time while he gets expos and 50 gateways and arbiter+templars ready and it just hasn't been working for me. Right when I move out with my army, they either recall when im halfway across the map or just rape me with storm and stasis and re-max in 2 minutes from their 50 gateways.

For these reasons I been trying to do the mass vulture harrass style of fantasy but you didn't include it in your guide and im just wondering if u forgot or u don't consider it a viable strategy? Also ur tvp reppack would be very helpful if u can. thx


The "fantasy style" (iloveoov build) is pretty unstable as it really depends on doing a lot of damage with the harass. I mean, fantasy himself almost never does it anymore...

The common tvp build right now in progames seems to be, take a fast 3rd + armory, but unlike the flash build you mass factories before starting the 4th. Around 2-1/near max you can make an aggressive move. If the timing of your 3rd is reasonably relative to the protoss' and your macro is good they shouldn't have time to get an enormous economy AND mass arbiters + templar by the time you push out. A defense of mines/turrets in your main makes a recall backstab a costly exchange if they try to do that while you push out.

I love the fantasy/iloveoov build style but if you don't consider standard TvP play viable I think you need to work on your mechanics a bit.
Nick_54
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2230 Posts
August 02 2010 04:35 GMT
#53
Thank you so much for this, it must have taken a lot of time. Really appreciate the hard work you must have put into it.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
August 04 2010 00:45 GMT
#54
I'm very glad everyone is getting good value out of this!

On July 19 2010 13:51 SuperChad wrote:
As soon as a saw LaTeX, I knew this would be great. I wonder if you are a mathematics or comp. science major?


Thank Stet_tcl for the latex, he and the Liquipedia team were a big help in making this look presentable. My interests are actually in Military History and Strategy.

On July 31 2010 11:48 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Ver what kind of style do you play in TvP? Do you have like a reppack or something of your tvp games?

You listed alot of tvp strategies but you didn't include fantasy's style which I feel is the only way to beat toss t.t.... I don't like playing flash style because you just like leave the protoss alone most of the time while he gets expos and 50 gateways and arbiter+templars ready and it just hasn't been working for me. Right when I move out with my army, they either recall when im halfway across the map or just rape me with storm and stasis and re-max in 2 minutes from their 50 gateways.

For these reasons I been trying to do the mass vulture harrass style of fantasy but you didn't include it in your guide and im just wondering if u forgot or u don't consider it a viable strategy? Also ur tvp reppack would be very helpful if u can. thx


My replays...uh I might be able to get some? That will take some time though as all my good TvP games against good players are from mid-2009 and I might or might not have them anymore. Although I can see why it would be useful given what I have written, watching pro games is much better than watching even someone like me because my understanding of the game is much greater than my playing ability due to extreme lack of games played. I'll see what I can do though.

As for oov's build, it's obviously not the only way or else all non-SKT1 Terrans wouldn't be winning so much lately . It is of course very good though. Flash's style is not particularly good for ladder even though it can work because bad Protoss players will cheat on timings without realizing it and its up to the Terran to punish them for it. Thus Rax expand -> timing attack, fact cc fact, oov's build, and Hiya's build all become much stronger. When playing against better players, if you can deny them information they cannot safely cut corners to get them so ahead against Flash style so it becomes much more viable. I'll include a pm I just responded to at the bottom that goes into this.

On July 23 2010 10:15 Boomsheka wrote:
Ver, What is your suggestion for people who are coming into Starcraft 2 without a BW background? I'm assuming they are going to have a tough time researching then translating BW skill over to Starcraft 2 skill since they barely know what they are seeing and there is very little Top Level Korean replays or players this early....How do they not fall into the trap of watching what appears to be a high level player who truly is not....worse yet how do we even know what's really good right now.


SC2 at the moment does not have the same rules as SC does right now to a certain degree but a modified approach of this guide will still work as I've used it for other games in their infancy (Guild Wars).

There will be balance changes and expansions in addition to normal strategical evolution, so while copying what the best players do will help to some degree, it's not stable. You don't want to be copying with the thought of making them your 'standard' for any significant amount of time. Rather, the point of learning from the best would be to gain understanding of what works so you can have the foundation to figure out other things that work. Skilled SC2 players that come from competitive RTS backgrounds (i,e the ex-SC1 pros, they would be my pick to learn from) will have a lot of things inherent in their play that is worth learning especially for those without that BW background. SC2 is similar enough to BW in structure that by learning from those experienced in it you can still make use of the 11 years of strategy evolution that BW has made.

Everyone will experience the same uncertainty that comes from being a new game far from its boundaries and the constant outside tinkerings, but those that really grasp the underlying structure of the game will be able to adapt much more readily to changing circumstances than others.

On August 02 2010 00:09 Gustav_Wind wrote:
The "fantasy style" (iloveoov build) is pretty unstable as it really depends on doing a lot of damage with the harass. I mean, fantasy himself almost never does it anymore...

The common tvp build right now in progames seems to be, take a fast 3rd + armory, but unlike the flash build you mass factories before starting the 4th. Around 2-1/near max you can make an aggressive move. If the timing of your 3rd is reasonably relative to the protoss' and your macro is good they shouldn't have time to get an enormous economy AND mass arbiters + templar by the time you push out. A defense of mines/turrets in your main makes a recall backstab a costly exchange if they try to do that while you push out.

I love the fantasy/iloveoov build style but if you don't consider standard TvP play viable I think you need to work on your mechanics a bit.


A minor quibble: Fantasy doesn't do his build every game because he is not versatile enough and only the threat of other builds would let him use his build. Early game TvP the Protoss cannot get enough information fast enough to accurately counter everything the Terran can do so they either have to play it safe and the Terran can get ahead with very fast expansions or they need to take risks and cut corners, opening themselves up to some timing attack or another. The issue with all the top Terrans at various times is that they don't have enough variety in their play. For the longest time an opponent would know exactly what Flash would do and could play; the same goes for Fantasy. If you know he will do oov's build you can stop it by slowing down your 3rd base, but you can't stop it without being behind versus more economic builds. And without knowing before the game, you can't get the information needed without being vulnerable to something like fact cc fact. So while Fantasy was playing the same build over and over, the Protoss could safely blindly play against that build without fearing the repercussions. TvP is all about trade-offs and risks.

+ Show Spoiler [Relevant TvP strategy pm] +
Your questions are good and I'm happy to see you are watching the games you have listed. It's not a problem that things don't make full sense right now, just keep asking questions and learning patterns and it will come. I could write for dozens of pages on this and still not be able to explain everything fully so I'll try to focus on a few key points.

A great deal of TvP comes down to information. Protoss have a technical map hack potential in the observer but it is something they must use and fight for, not be given. The Terran is the one who directs the flow of the match and the Protoss reacts, so if they are denied information, they will not know what to react to properly. Sometimes, getting the observers themselves opens them up to timing windows.

For example, the fact cc fact you mentioned. This build has several ways it can work, depending on how each side opened (fact cc/rax cc, 1 gate expand, 1 gate obs expand; doesn't apply if Protoss 12 Nex, 2 gate expand or later or does reaver/dt off 1 base). In each case the Protoss is sacrificing a 2nd gateway of dragoons in order to get something else (tech/nexus) and you will have a window for unit superiority. The fact that this exists (and it is probably the most popular strategy at the moment) hurts Protoss options as well; if they want their observers fast they have to take a major risk. If they want to avoid that risk (say 1 gate expand -> 2nd gate before robo), they are delaying their observers and making it harder to figure out what is going on.

The 2/1 timing attack variation is one of the most flexible (and therefore least allin strategies). If for example you do the Hiya build (fact cc cc armory -> mass fact timing attack) you are cutting upgrades and tech and expansions in order to deliver a powerful knockout blow. This makes your attack comparatively stronger, but if the Protoss can avoid critical damage, they will be way ahead. That is not the case for the 2/1 timing attack (assuming an even game up till that point), where you are not sacrificing anything, but more going a middle path. So long as you don't get routed you will still get a protected 4th base up, have excellent upgrades and tech, and still have map control potential. At the same time, you aren't going to win that battle and win the game right there nearly as easily.

A big part of it is also the complete immunity to 2 base tech builds. The fast armory/academy means that you will repel any 2 base reaver/dt (which are very good otherwise) with ease; this is what opens up the window for the 2/1 timing in the first place back when the strategy was created as the Protoss invested in an attack that can't do damage. If for example you would do the Hiya build mentioned above and gear towards the timing of the Protoss taking an overly fast 4th base (which they would like to against a 2/1 timing), a 2 base reaver or dt drop would likely do solid damage and be an effective deterrent to that timing push. But as a general rule of thumb, attack upgrades in TvP are game-changing. The 2/1 attack rushes that 2nd attack as fast as possible and gears the attack around the strongest a Terran army can be with it, regardless of the Protoss actions.

Now why can't the Protoss just optimize, take 3 bases really fast, get some gates/tech and take a 4th? They don't know what the Terran is doing. If they want to take a risk they can go arbiters and take a 3rd base off 2 gate (dies to oov build/fact cc fact), or do 1 gate double expand (dies to same thing). If they don't want to take a risk they might 2 gate obs nexus and have defending chances vs oov build and repel a fact cc fact, but be weaker against a 2/1 or Hiya build, and they will certainly be behind if the Terran takes a very fast 4th base.

A great example of the information problem is in Bisu vs Flash on Medusa here. Flash goes fact cc armory cc and repels Bisu's early pressure (tiny lead). The key point is Flash's turrets prevented Bisu from knowing what he was doing, forcing Bisu to make some assumptions. I'm not quite sure what Bisu though he would do (I'm guessing 2/1 timing attack) but Bisu was certainly confused when he saw Flash take his 4th before attacking (Flash did it off of 2 factories!!). Had Bisu gotten the key information of factory and troop count he would have crushed Flash's middle position and had a winning advantage (he had 200 supply to 120).

But he didn't know, and this lack of information made him hesitant. Instead of either attacking or expanding fast to 3, he held on 4 bases in order to mass up and prevent an attack (that didn't come!). When he thought Flash was turtling instead of attacking when he needed to, he made a recall that was a minute or two late. Instead of Bisu killing an expo and eventually stalling Flash's attack (which would have happened if Flash had taken his 4th later in the same continuation), Flash has enough income and army to dominate the key Protoss natural choke, repel the recall and reinforce, and therefore win the game.

As for Stork/Flash on Tau, make sure you assess the whole game. Flash is able to do damage with a fact cc fact and gain an advantage while Stork gets 2 base reaver and does little. This advantage lets Flash continue to expand rapid to 4 bases while getting upgrades and tech and keep up the harass (Stork can't attack the fast exapnsions or he dies to harass, he can't defend from harass fully due to lack of units/money for cannons). Flash keeps up his harass for as long as feasible and he has a really flexible window of when to move out given his large advantage. He just needs to attack before Stork can recover from all the harass.

For Flash/Shuttle on RotK, Shuttle goes 1 gate obs nexus -> 2 base reaver Nexus. The fast observer lets him confirm Flash's intentions at least for the start (to go for 3 base with armory, but he can't know if he goes for 2/1 timing or fast 4th) and he is economically behind. Flash's drop does no damage, so the game is pretty equal at that point. The problem comes in that Flash goes for a 2/1 timing but he doesn't actually make the attack, possibly sensing that it wouldn't work well due to his failed drop and Shuttle's expansion timing (I'm not quite sure). So Flash takes his 4th at 2/1 timing (he could've taken it much faster and been ahead) and the position isn't looking good for him. His harass does slow Shuttle down a bit in taking more expansions (ideally he would've wanted all the bases at 11 up sooner) but Flash's decision making wasn't the best this game or this series (he screwed up and lost the first game too).

Now the game turns more into a contest of maneuvering. Flash either needs to fight a battle at a vastly superior position and win decisively (as Shuttle simply has so many expansions), then rapidly kill of Shuttle's expansions and prevent him from amassing a new army, or he needs to slowly take the expansions at 1, establish an impregnable defensive position and simultaneously prevent Shuttle from doing so. This is why Flash is spending so much time with his vultures during this otherwise idle period, and why Shuttle is moving his army around constantly to stop the vultures. Note that Flash does not have to commit to either plan, he just has to execute one successfully. However, the 'win a big battle' plan needs to happen before Shuttle can establish a full second battery of gateways at 11 (which the harass did delay). Flash's best hope is that Shuttle screwed up and maxed too quickly with only one arbiter (though he has templars).

The key point comes when Flash lures Shuttles army away from the middle into clearing mines at the mid right and then into 1 (Shuttle can't get observers in position to see Flash's maneuvers due to goliaths + vessels and turrets). Flash quickly takes the high ground and mines up, putting himself at a massive advantage. Shuttle will die if he attacks the position from the single ramp, especially with the lack of stasis available. Shuttle's retreat path is very long and Flash can easily attack his natural or 11 expansions from a vastly superior position(countering is not an option due to the mines/terrain/central position superiority). His attack up the ramp was a bad one but it was a move of desperation; he could have made a fight had he retreated north and tried to await an opening.

-----------------------------------------
Original Message:
First off, I absolutely love the guide you wrote. It states with certainty many of the things that I have suspected since I started playing Broodwar. The list of VODs and advice on how to improve has so much common sense and sound reasoning behind it.

I'm a rather terrible Terran player with a short history in broodwar. I was looking through the builds you listed examples for, and it looks to me that two of them (FE into 2fact timing and 4fact) are designed to hit the protoss when he is either taking a third or I suppose teching too fast to arbiters. That's what I would summarize the overall 'goal' of the build as (correct me if I'm totally off).

However, I don't at all understand the 'goal' of the Flash build. The explanations I've read (not ideal, I guess) suggest that the build aims for a timing attack when you reach 2/1 upgrades. This does not make very much sense to me. Unless there's some direct consequence of these 2/1 upgrades that I am missing (like +1 zealot attacks in PvZ), isn't the idea of pushing out blindly at 2/1 well, rather foolish. Why shouldn't the protoss simply optimize his economy to have the maximum number of units when this push comes out? How can a 'timing attack' not be based on how the Protoss is spending his money?

I went to liquipedia, and while it informs me that 2/1 is merely a guideline, and that terrans should push to take advantage of a protoss expansion to teching to Arbiters/Carriers. While this makes more sense, I have a hard time ... well, believing it. I can see how 400 minerals might be a major concern in the early game (explaining why the 4fact and CC into 2fact timing builds work). However, in armies that are presumably 150 food, can 3 dragoons really make such a big difference?

I also tend to have a hard time understanding why Flash pushes when he does. In some games, like Flash vs Sangho on Medusa, its seems to be rather obvious. However, in other games such as Flash vs Shuttle on ROTK and Flash vs Stork on Tau Cross, I really have no idea. At best what I can think of is that Flash pushed relatively soon after Shuttle's first arbiter was out in his game on ROTK. What kind of timing is that hoping to exploit? Shuttle has already spent on the Stargate and Arbiter Tribunal, so while he might be short that many units minus the gateway cost, he's already reaped the benefits of his investment, hasn't he? Or is there some critical mass of Arbiters that makes the army that much more effective?

I guess in more general terms, there's something I must be missing about the concept of a timing attack. Like I said, I can sort of grasp the idea of pushing based on tech: a Terran pushing out with 3 tanks to exploit the lack of defilers and pressure the Zerg front, a +1 zealot attack in PvZ, etc. It seems to me that these attacks have less to do with where money is being spent and more to do with ... unit counters, for lack of a better term. However, pushing out against a maxed protoss because he spent 400 minerals - none of which could actually go into army production because of the supply cap anyway - seems questionable. Is that actually the reasoning?

I appreciate any response you might have to my overly simplistic and probably rather foolish questions =)
Liquipedia
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
August 04 2010 23:07 GMT
#55
Got damn that's a lot of info in that post. I'm a copy & paste and send to my work email since TL is banned from my job. :sad face:
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
August 05 2010 19:13 GMT
#56
On July 23 2010 10:15 Boomsheka wrote:
Ver, What is your suggestion for people who are coming into Starcraft 2 without a BW background? I'm assuming they are going to have a tough time researching then translating BW skill over to Starcraft 2 skill since they barely know what they are seeing and there is very little Top Level Korean replays or players this early....How do they not fall into the trap of watching what appears to be a high level player who truly is not....worse yet how do we even know what's really good right now.


One very important point I forgot. The current chaotic state of SC2 means that there will be a good amount of available games where top players beat down much weaker ones, which is excellent learning material. Keep a special look for those games and pour over them.
Liquipedia
Frigo
Profile Joined August 2009
Hungary1023 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-08 03:04:33
August 08 2010 03:02 GMT
#57
Too many times I encounter fellow D/D+ players who execute some nice practiced build order, or even invent some clever way to screw me over, succeed in doing so, then after that... do nothing.

One PvP game the guy exploited my 2gate forge opening by dropping DTs into my main, killing my nexus, and after I rebuilt it, he attacked my natural and took it out as well. Then... he let me rebuild it and macro up like a fucker off 3 bases (1 hidden) and simply handed me the game.

One PvT game I tried to fast exp off 1gate and defend it with DTs. The guy killed my nexus with some "fake double" (after siege exp), and then... 10 minutes of inactivity. Again, I double exped first, macro whore'd and took out his tiny push with the usual zeal/goon/arb.

One PvT game where the guy kept doing nice vulture drops all the time, except I deflected them and was taking my 4th by then, all the while he had 2 factories and 3 CCs standing idle (the 3rd didn't even have any mining SCVs). Too bad I disconnected, my transformation into MacroWhore was almost complete, and I could have 1a2a3a'd him easily.

Numerous PvZ games where the zerg loved a single unit so much, they never wanted to make anything else. 2gate sair and zeal/archon push into zerg main? I'll make more mutas! Toss taking his 4th? I know, let's keep throwing hydras at him!

My advice:
- Know thy followup, should your strategy succeed or fail
- Push your advantage
- Think it through what the hell are you doing, seriously
http://www.fimfiction.net/user/Treasure_Chest
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
August 08 2010 06:47 GMT
#58
This is so great Ver, thanks so much! Eagerly waiting for that TvT update.
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Never.Die
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan189 Posts
September 05 2010 13:44 GMT
#59
Thank you very much for this guide <3, I'll definitely study this for a while, now that I'm back to SC:BW
zengrz
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada37 Posts
September 27 2010 00:01 GMT
#60
Thanks a lot. I kept losing.

Hope it can help me~
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