On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
I'm puzzled by this. How can it be difficult to defend both the main and the natural when the Terran has diverted 300/250 for a starport and dropship? The attack will be delayed (or weaker) than a 2 factory rush, either of which should render it ineffective because the opponent's economy is bigger than yours - delaying your attack is only to your detriment.
2 fac port should lose miserably to 12 nex --> gateways + robo.
It's not really delaying attack. You attack a little and pick off things consistently as your vultures come out. When dropship comes, you can attack both main and nat now. The key is to keep harrassing consistently. If you fail this, it means your micro just wasn't at the level. And I'm not delaying my starport. P's probes are busy running around and getting sniped, while my 2nd cc is almost completed in the nat. Even if I decide to stop harrassing by the time my 2nd cc completes I am suddenly ahead in economy.
I've practiced a lot with Korean A- protoesses in my clan last season with this build vs 12 nexus. They were also pretty skeptical at first but they kept getting raped almost everytime I did this build, and it became somewhat popular in my clan. And really, I'm speaking from an experience (at least B - A- ranks, I'm B+). You don't see this get pulled out at low levels (C+ - ish) because it's somewhat multitasking heavy, but if you practice this right you will almost never lose just because you were behind by 12 nexus
this sounds really interesting, and id like to give it a try
are there any replays you are willing to share with us?
I removed everything that has to do with SC after end of last season since I wanted to get some work done, so I will ask my friends whom I practiced with (or some ladder games I played on iccup, I use same ID on iccup : mieda) if they have replays from last season. When I do, I'll post it.
Again, the point is to be consistently harrassing and diverting the protoss eyes, and when dropship arrives you'll have enough units to attack *both* the main and the nat, about 4 vultures in each locations. This is where you need to multitask a lot and is also the main difference between this and 1 fax port, since you need to put down mines / micro vultures in both locations at once, while building that 2nd cc and producing at home.
I'm forgetting some small details now for some reason (it's been couple months since I didn't touch SC), so I'll go see if my clanmates or other friends have replays from last season.
[Edit]
Here's IDRA doing a similar build vs. 12 nex, though P here goes dark so totally gets raped without T having to do much multitasking.
I stipulate again that if you're failing this, then you just aren't playing fast enough / not good enough multitasking. You probably won't see this at C+ / low B- level. More stipulation: The point of this build is VERY DIFFERENT from 1 fax port or 2 fax.
2 fact 1 port only worked that well in the Nony v. Idra game because Nony followed up his 12 nex with a DT drop. A different response (i.e. 3 gate goon with fast obs) could deal with 2 fact 1 port vulture pretty easily. Just split up half the goons at each base, and have an obs for mines.
On May 04 2010 10:51 DTK-m2 wrote: 2 fact 1 port only worked that well in the Nony v. Idra game because Nony followed up his 12 nex with a DT drop. A different response (i.e. 3 gate goon with fast obs) could deal with 2 fact 1 port vulture pretty easily. Just split up half the goons at each base, and have an obs for mines.
I agree - I don't see how spending more than the cost of 2 goons + 1 obs for a dropship will be worthwhile, particularly when Terran is the one with the weaker economy. If Protoss stays at home, it's very easy to split units between the main and the natural, and if the concern is siege tanks claiming a position, well... a robo (--> shuttle) takes care of that.
Is there a particular map this 2 fac 1 port build is meant for? I could see it on Andromeda because of all the open space in the main, and the droppable cliff overlooking the natural, but not on, say, Tornado.
2 fact works if you send like 8 fucking scvs, especially on closer positions. the build i use as terran when i think my opponent is going 12 nexus or 1 gate robo (if they are a relatively smart/conservative player that isn't old school enough to 2 gate obs that often) is the Joyo build.
9 depot 11 rax 12 gas 15 fact depot 2nd fact when first is ~60% dont 2nd marine before 2nd fact in my opinion pump marines tank when first machine shop is done should start making with 2nd machine shop make 2 tanks from the 2 facts + vult speed + spidermines go with 3 tanks and a control group of marine scvs while rallying vultures off 2 facts if you cannot kill a 12 nexus with this you need to be able to control and micro better
What do you think about this strategy?: -Fac before 2nt sup -vult before shop -after shop, another vult and research mines -a tank
If the toss sends out his first 1 or 2 zealots, your second vulture will finish just as they get into the natural. If you can delay the goons from advancing for 10 seconds by microing the first vulture (after picking off a couple probes), it will give you time to finish researching and plant 3 mines before the first 2 goons reach your base (with literally like 1 second to spare.) Your tank will have just finished.
You have to remember that 12 nexusing tosses usually severely cut probes to get a quick early army. If you start your cc at 3:30, (and you should be able to,) toss will have usualy only produced about 5 or 6 probes out of his second nexus by the time your cc finishes. Another thing important to note is that terran units are more economical than toss units, so I believe its ok to be a couple behind on the worker count.
This is the best possible counter that I can think of for standard maps (currently testing it on moon glaive,) that provides a 100% wrinkle-free option to switch to standard siege expand if the toss doesn't 12 nexus.
On May 08 2010 07:58 Rkie wrote: siege expand or medic-marine rush. the medic marine rush is very good, treat this like a sunken buster vs zerg and you should be fine
Can you provide a couple B- or higher level replays proving that MnM is an effective strategy?
Edit:
On May 08 2010 08:00 SturmAddict wrote: Just watch Flash games from the recent OSL.
He responded to 12 nexus with a double expand, and worked each time.
Did the protoss go 2 base bulldog, like stork did vs fantasy when he went for double expand (stork won ezpz1a2a3a)?
In game 2. Pure attacked with a dozen dragoons and 4 zealots dropped. Flash had 2 tanks initially and 12-14 SCV's mining. All entrances blocked with supply depots. Zealots dropped but tanks ignored them and shot the goons funneled through the supplies SCV-->block goons and repair tanks
in the end lots of goons dead, and flash was able to reinforce with tanks from main. Pure countered with an expand. And Flash pushed once his 9 fact kicked in, 20 supply ahead
On May 08 2010 16:32 SturmAddict wrote: Yes, pure did + Show Spoiler +
In game 2. Pure attacked with a dozen dragoons and 4 zealots dropped. Flash had 2 tanks initially and 12-14 SCV's mining. All entrances blocked with supply depots. Zealots dropped but tanks ignored them and shot the goons funneled through the supplies SCV-->block goons and repair tanks
in the end lots of goons dead, and flash was able to reinforce with tanks from main. Pure countered with an expand. And Flash pushed once his 9 fact kicked in, 20 supply ahead
He didn't do a 2 base all-in; he took his third when he had 3 gateways. This made his bulldog way weaker than it could have been (especially if he had made a 2nt shuttle.)
Well, the thing is, pure immediately attacked after his first observer found the 3rd.
Thats pretty much the earliest point you can really hurt someone after a 12 nex, or risk walking goons all over mines. If one obs is used to find thirds and another to clear mines, it takes even more time to be able to attack.
It is very difficult to scout because the 3rd CC is built inbase, and 4 marines can easily kill any probe scouting.
It is definitely safe against dt drops and reaver drops , because flash had turrets placed on each expansion + tanks. That means you need a bulldog stronger then a reaver drop, in addition you need obs unless you want to shuttle stuff from your base straight to his.
you need to watch the games really. Flash counter-expanded in all three games with great success. Its not as risky as BBS and it gets the job done
Forward rax. There is a certain beauty to this build
Firstly, lets look at the current play style of 50:50 12 nex or 1 base fast obs.
Both of this builds are incapable of taking down because the fact timing isnt delayed much; and worst comes to worst it will just be a normal FD followed by a standard game
However, if the opponent goes 12 nex; you have a good chance to take down the nexus with a bunker rush, putting you ahead in tech and even expansion for a certain ammount of time.
In the Flash vs free replay, it should be noted that free only made one gateway. This version of 12 nexus is so weak that a simple joyo could easily take it down. A bunker rush will own it, as in the replay.
But if they go 2 gate after 12 nexus, I think a bunker rush will be of questionable effectiveness. A lot of the time the toss will be able to hold it off if he pulls a large number of probes. He will be able to defend even better if he builds both gates before the core.
About the forward barracks: it seems like a cool idea, and I'll have to experiment with it. However, a very major problem I foresee is when the the toss attacks with his very first zealot. I'm inclined to say that if he goes 8 scout then zealot before core, it will hard counter this build.
I'll have to rewatch the Flash vs Pure replays again, but I'm just not sure how you will be able to defend against a fast reaver combined with goon bulldog. Remember that you will have to distribute your forces over three different bases, and your entire force basically comes from one or two factories. Of course you can put a couple siege tanks at each expo, but then toss can just carry a pair of zealots to absorb siege tank fire before the reaver shoots.
Watch many flash and KTF game since KT has the mindset that 12nex isn't safe they have all ways of countering it. In one game Flash even does the bunker rush with the vulture but dsn't manage to kill his opponent of so he combines it with a fast third. Flash is really awesome
EPT
