I know there are countless threads on this, but nothing the threads say really works for me and almost all are extremely dangerous/risky and require some luck
Here are a list of different counters i managed to scrap up from other threads: 1. Bunker Rush - Fails if u scout late 2. Fac-Port- Can but u behind VERY economically if it does no damage 3. 1 Fac Double expand- very unsafe esp in maps where third is hard to defend 4. iloveoov build- Has to kill many probes and terran will lose third if it is quickly discovered 5. Rax Expand- Dies to any proxy 6. BBS- Loses to everything but 12 nexus 7. 14 CC- Loses to any early aggression 8. 2 Fac Starport - Don't no how to do this one but very low eco and must kill many probes
The map i like to play on is Fighting Spirit and almost every other Protoss does 12 nex and rolls me unless my macro is a lot better than his. Assuming that i scout the Protoss too late to do a bunker rush, what do you think is the best counter?
Also It would help if someone would explain fac port because it seems like it would be very easy for a Protoss to defend by sending like 2 goons in main when drop comes. I dont get how i can even the economic advantage with only 4 vult unless P has poor reaction time. I would think u would need to kill at least 12 probes to balance the economies, and that seems almost impossible with jjust 4 vult
And exactly how do you do the 1 fac double expand when the 3rd base is not in the main? I know you are supposed to make vultures with mines since the oppononent will have late obs cuz of the 12 nexus, but exactly how many are u supposed to make before making tanks? I have tried this build numerous times, but once his obs are out, they either storm into my third or contain me outside my base because of the few tanks i have. Then, they destroy my third which i can't defend because of the contain.
Im really interested if anybody has some replays of either 1 fac double expand or 2 fact starport because those seem to be the best choice of BO when u scout the 12 nex very late
2 FAC DOES NOT WORK VER AND IDRA HAVE CONFIRMED IT STOP POSTING IT
Well, I don't think you need to exactly counter 12 nex with a specific build...for example you could counter 12 nex by delaying an ebay (if you scout upgrades on core) and taking a quick third (though not as quick as double expand...thx, Stylish ) The thing is, you need to constantly scout. If he fakes something you need to be aware of it
i dont know what the iloveoov build is but the best option imo is the bunker rush. if you scout late, you can go for a 2fact with many tanks and marines as shown here srry dont know how to embed videos.
On May 01 2010 07:52 kineSiS- wrote: 1Fac Vulture to SCV push. You should 2-4 marines by then.
I never heard of this counter but im pretty sure it can be easily defended by P if he pulls some probes and uses Dragoon micro. Replay pls?
Well, I don't think you need to exactly counter 12 nex with a specific build...for example you could counter 12 nex by delaying an ebay (if you scout upgrades on core) and taking a quick third (though not as quick as double expand...thx, Stylish ) The thing is, you need to constantly scout. If he fakes something you need to be aware of it
That only works in Stylish's VOD because the map was colloseum and u can easily defend all 3 expos at the same time.
On May 01 2010 07:56 FyRe_DragOn wrote: i dont know what the iloveoov build is but the best option imo is the bunker rush. if you scout late, you can go for a 2fact with many tanks and marines as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TmWhB_3nDM srry dont know how to embed videos.
edit: seems it did it for me anyway
Whoa, but from what I found out from threads, 12 Nex was designed to fend off 2 fac aggression by cutting probes. This is the build Artosis demonstrates in his tutorial if im not mistaken. Does anybody know why this 2 fac worked for Sea.Really when 12 nex is supposed to be defendable against 2 fac?
12 nexus exists to soft counter a supply-rax-refinery-factory opening on a large map. That's the point of the build, so if you opened supply-rax-refinery-factory, you should be at a disadvantage. If you want economic parity/advantage, you have to put the CC earlier; if you want to be able to rush your opponent out, you need the rax earlier.
If I were Terran and spotted a 12 nexus after I'd started my factory, I would go 1 fac vultures (mines, no tanks), take my natural and get a fast third CC in my natural, pump SCVs, add factories and tanks, and then claim my third (float the CC and move into position) when the Protoss takes his third. Although maybe it would be smarter to place the third CC at the third base, and be ready to evacuate if you scout the Protoss playing 2 base aggression rather than taking a third of his own.
It's irritating even if I don't go 12 nex. Just try to out-multitask him, make him use the early dragoons to defend, get your natural and try to do a good sim city to prevent early harass from killing you.
but as you said, if you don't do significant damage, you're good as dead..just try to play aggressive, look for holes in his defense since 12 nex is vulnerable before eco kicks in.
Well, considering if he 12 nexus, let's say you opened standard 9 supply and 11 rax:
Scout him first --> Bunker rush delays him from mining from half his probes, allowing you to rax-> expo and be ahead.
OR
all-in 2 fact build, which comes down to a game of micro (this build DOESN'T work if you opened standard, but works great if you opened 10/10/10 and your opponent is unable to scout it
OR
1 fact bunker rush --> this is the bane of all protoss players. You will likely kill his nexus and set up a decent temporary contain. Be careful about shuttles and DTs tho as this build allows the toss to tech while you rape his expo
In most situations you scout the toss first, you have an advantage in that he is vurnerable to different build you might try. But if you don't apply pressure or go fast cc, he will still be ahead.
Now, say you scout him second
Now, bunker rush seems to be not that great of an idea anymore, but DO NOT be discouraged to put up a bunker to piss him off.
Ofcourse, now, adding a second factory for 2 fact probably isn't the most viable strategy. He can pull probes and still be ahead of you. HOWEVER
If you've already got a in the making, why not go dropship and fe? Also, another great build I find again is the 1 fact push.
Overall, in most situations, you are only down by a marginal amount.
Okay, finally you scout him last.
In this case, it's probably safest to go 1 fact expo. You're moderately behind with this build, but in this case apply early pressure on him, and try going for a fast third or try to timing attack him while he tries to set up his third to rid his advantage.
So no, 12 nexus isn't the funnest build to play edit:against, but hey I've never met any Terran players who enjoy getting their asses 1a2a3a'd by me and my crappyass 120 apm C+ness
1) You out position / micro your opponent to a large degree. In Movie vs Really, Movie actually does the worst thing he could possibly do and half-walls himself in with pylons fearing early vulture aggression. However, Really does a blind 2fact with a bunch of tanks, only rallying vultures after he's already moved out. Movie's goons get contained and can't pick off tanks, forcing him to pull probes to get into a better position. It was overall a weird game and not the best example, though, due to the fact both of them were playing so far in the dark.
2) You really make your opponent believe you're not doing a 2fact, but a strong FD or something similar. Your opponent continues to play a bit greedy, you reinforce with more than expected, and either win straight up or force a ton of probe destruction like in the previous example. I've seen this work, but I don't think it's nearly as viable as your other options.
So yeah, 2fact vs 12nex is still a big risk, and no one should really be recommending it, especially at this level of play. To be honest, the economic advantage a player gains from 12nex can easily be overcome by standard openings in even mid level games. I'm not sure I would feel obligated to do something about it if you scout 12nex unless you're sure that the advantage they're going to get over you expanding as soon as you scout is going to be game breaking.
bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Scout at 12 always on 4 player maps 14 on 1v1 maps.
By scouting at 12 on a map like fighting spirit it allows you to skip the machine shop addon and make a fast vult even if you scout him last (the timing will be literally perfect as soon as the fact finishes ur scv will scout the 3rd natural) u send 4rines+vult+6scvs, if microed well it's very hard for protoss to defend this all u need to do is get bunker up I usually start it with the initial scv scout. There are some varations to double nexus where they get 2 zealot or just go straight for goon+range. Either way all u need to do is micro well. Don't pull more than 6 scvs or he can just sac the expo and you econ will be further behind his.
Kill his nexus while u start ur expo and u'll be ahead. U have to watch out for 2 things though fast dt and the goon counter at ur nat.
On May 01 2010 06:16 Omgoodnessess wrote: I know there are countless threads on this, but nothing the threads say really works for me and almost all are extremely dangerous/risky and require some luck
Here are a list of different counters i managed to scrap up from other threads: 1. Bunker Rush - Fails if u scout late 2. Fac-Port- Can but u behind VERY economically if it does no damage 3. 1 Fac Double expand- very unsafe esp in maps where third is hard to defend 4. iloveoov build- Has to kill many probes or the terran will get rolled cuz of few tanks 5. Rax Expand- Dies to any proxy 6. BBS- Loses to everything but 12 nexus 7. 14 CC- Loses to any early aggression
The map i like to play on is Fighting Spirit and almost every other Protoss does 12 nex and rolls me unless my macro is a lot better than his. Assuming that i scout the Protoss too late to do a bunker rush, what do you think is the best counter?
Also It would help if someone would explain fac port because it seems like it would be very easy for a Protoss to defend by sending like 2 goons in main when drop comes. I dont get how i can even the economic advantage with only 4 vult unless P has poor reaction time. I would think u would need to kill at least 12 probes to balance the economies, and that seems almost impossible with jjust 4 vult
And exactly how do you do the 1 fac double expand when the 3rd base is not in the main? I know you are supposed to make vultures with mines since the oppononent will have late obs cuz of the 12 nexus, but exactly how many are u supposed to make before making tanks? I have tried this build numerous times, but once his obs are out, they either storm into my third or contain me outside my base because of the few tanks i have. Then, they destroy my third which i can't defend because of the contain.
Think about what you wrote. You play on Fighting Spirit. The third is easy to defend -> 1fact double expand is viable. Almost every protoss does 12 nexus. Go for 1rax expand!
Think about what you wrote. You play on Fighting Spirit. The third is easy to defend -> 1fact double expand is viable. Almost every protoss does 12 nexus. Go for 1rax expand!
Well I also asked in this thread how to properly do a 1 fact double expand. I do not know how many vultures to make before tanks and where to place mines and a rough build order. I actually would like to know this because it seems this is one of the "safer" builds I listed above
And as for 1 rax expand, as i said, if the opponent didn't 12 nex and proxied, i auto-lose. Watch Idra vs Nony TSL R8 on Fighting Spirit to see the weakness of rax expand. I feel really uncomfortable just blindly doing a build order that can get countered if they luckily do a proxy.
Idras mistake in that game is that he didn't block the choke again with his cc or his rax. Besides if most protoss does 12 nex you will chose a good build against them most of the time, right? And you could send a scout at 10 to check for proxy as well.
2-3 vults before tanks. typically if you get a bunker up he needs a decent number of goons+range to take it out. that gives u plenty of time to get a bunker+ur nat up and a tank with siege out.
Watch replays of the KT Terrans. The KT house simply doesn't believe that 12nex is safe and have a good success rate with their counters. + Show Spoiler +
ForGG just beat Kal in the OSL
with a bunker rush and 2fac follow through. Flash does a lot of bunker rushes and micros better than most, so you can tell that he's practiced this scenario a lot.
Something to note on a 4-player map is that you want to scout at a good time to spot a 12nex. Some people scout diagonally, but that's your choice for the counter you have in mind. If you scout last you're going to need a lot of SCVs to make it work.
If you're set on bunkering Flash style, opening FD is better than siege expo (you'll have marines and less gas built up), and if you open vult before machine shop you should have enough marines and a vult on the way if your scout arrives last. You will have to pull some SCVs to ensure the bunker finishes and to block probes from simply chasing out your army, more SCVs the later you start your bunker. Personally, I wouldn't rush if I scouted last on a 4-player map.
Taking a fast 3rd is the "correct" response, but I'm not experienced on the tactics to establish this safely. I assume it involves ample spider mine presence and threat of harassment.
I said this in another thread: if you go for a fast 3rd, how the heck would you respond to any sort of 2 base build by toss, for example, 2 base carrier?
On May 02 2010 02:51 4iner wrote: I said this in another thread: if you go for a fast 3rd, how the heck would you respond to any sort of 2 base build by toss, for example, 2 base carrier?
If Protoss does a 2-base tech build, you should be way ahead, since he can't attack you until his tech is out and you have a sexy economy. I imagine you would counter a two base carrier build with goliaths, missile turrets, and upgrades.
If he does a 2-base all-in such as a two base bulldog, you may have a difficult time. I dunno if it's plausible to hold a third against such aggression. (But if it isn't, you can just pull all your SCVs out of the third and fly the CC --> you have a much better econ and are favored to win.)
I personally don't go 12 Nexus anymore as it's just a HUGE pain in the ass beating the rallied rine + 6-7 scv + vult rush. If they have some good micro its very difficult to keep your nexus at all.
On May 02 2010 00:13 Omgoodnessess wrote: How many vultures b4 tanks??? Still didn't answer question
As with everything in Starcraft there isn't an exact number when you should do something. Taken from Liquipedia:
After the second Factory the build depends on what the Protoss is doing. The priorities are to research Siege Mode, start producing Tanks, and get an Engineering Bay and Turrets to block possible drops. From there, two Armories are advised, although more Factories might be required first if the Protoss is massing off of 2 bases.
2 fact vultures are a decent response, as is 2 rax mass rines/SCV's. basically any early rush play will work,
have you looked at the joy-o rush on liquipedia?
basically, what you need to think about is that, based on the nature of the 12 nex, you can either kill it quickly, which obviously hurts your econ, but will hurt his more, or you can try to catch up all mid game, which is difficult and not adviseable if you don't have way better macro than your opponent.
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
Stork someone played someone on match point, and they took a quick third in response because they didn't scout it early enough for a bunker rush. Forget who it was though.
There are many tipes of 2 fakt, some of thous works vs 12 nex some doesnt. Usually you do a 1 tank vultures and rins, vs 12 nex wait until 5 tanks and just then research mines, speed is really not needed in this situation
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
I'm puzzled by this. How can it be difficult to defend both the main and the natural when the Terran has diverted 300/250 for a starport and dropship? The attack will be delayed (or weaker) than a 2 factory rush, either of which should render it ineffective because the opponent's economy is bigger than yours - delaying your attack is only to your detriment.
2 fac port should lose miserably to 12 nex --> gateways + robo.
On May 02 2010 18:59 DarthThienAn wrote: Stork someone played someone on match point, and they took a quick third in response because they didn't scout it early enough for a bunker rush. Forget who it was though.
Both Idra and Ver claims that 2fact will lose to 12nex, then again at low lvl pretty much every early push will probably win vs fast nexus. I'm only C- but I always go for bunker rush with vultures if i scout it fast enough, if I don't I try 1fact double expand and I win more often against 12-14nex than any other protoss strategy.
On May 01 2010 07:56 FyRe_DragOn wrote: i dont know what the iloveoov build is but the best option imo is the bunker rush. if you scout late, you can go for a 2fact with many tanks and marines as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TmWhB_3nDM srry dont know how to embed videos.
edit: seems it did it for me anyway
It seemed like this worked only because sea.really had some amazing tank micro.
the reason i dotn 12 nex on fighting spirit: 2 fact rush
generally you want to have around: 2-3 vultures (with mine + speed upgrade if u went for 2 machine shops) 2 tanks 1-2 scvs a couple of marines (4+)
this generally allows you to, at the very least, contain your opponent in a way such that it'll be hard for them to break out. from there, just add turrets to make sure you don't die to dts and/or zealot bombs, and make sure to expand yourself after containing your opponent, cause in the chance that he breaks out, you want to be able to have a decent economic lead over him.
Rax then expo as a standard opening seems pretty ballin. Imo, defeating 12 nexus with any kinda rush/gimmicky play takes luck combined with no mistakes in micro -- so you may as well flip a coin, or try a build that doesn't allow players worse than you to win due to the amazing 12 nexus. See flash's last tvp (against free).
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
I'm puzzled by this. How can it be difficult to defend both the main and the natural when the Terran has diverted 300/250 for a starport and dropship? The attack will be delayed (or weaker) than a 2 factory rush, either of which should render it ineffective because the opponent's economy is bigger than yours - delaying your attack is only to your detriment.
2 fac port should lose miserably to 12 nex --> gateways + robo.
It's not really delaying attack. You attack a little and pick off things consistently as your vultures come out. When dropship comes, you can attack both main and nat now. The key is to keep harrassing consistently. If you fail this, it means your micro just wasn't at the level. And I'm not delaying my starport. P's probes are busy running around and getting sniped, while my 2nd cc is almost completed in the nat. Even if I decide to stop harrassing by the time my 2nd cc completes I am suddenly ahead in economy.
I've practiced a lot with Korean A- protoesses in my clan last season with this build vs 12 nexus. They were also pretty skeptical at first but they kept getting raped almost everytime I did this build, and it became somewhat popular in my clan. And really, I'm speaking from an experience (at least B - A- ranks, I'm B+). You don't see this get pulled out at low levels (C+ - ish) because it's somewhat multitasking heavy, but if you practice this right you will almost never lose just because you were behind by 12 nexus
omfg just scout when you start your barracks, unless you scout them last, the bunker rush should work. If you do scout them last, you still have a chance, but your very unlucky
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
I'm puzzled by this. How can it be difficult to defend both the main and the natural when the Terran has diverted 300/250 for a starport and dropship? The attack will be delayed (or weaker) than a 2 factory rush, either of which should render it ineffective because the opponent's economy is bigger than yours - delaying your attack is only to your detriment.
2 fac port should lose miserably to 12 nex --> gateways + robo.
It's not really delaying attack. You attack a little and pick off things consistently as your vultures come out. When dropship comes, you can attack both main and nat now. The key is to keep harrassing consistently. If you fail this, it means your micro just wasn't at the level. And I'm not delaying my starport. P's probes are busy running around and getting sniped, while my 2nd cc is almost completed in the nat. Even if I decide to stop harrassing by the time my 2nd cc completes I am suddenly ahead in economy.
I've practiced a lot with Korean A- protoesses in my clan last season with this build vs 12 nexus. They were also pretty skeptical at first but they kept getting raped almost everytime I did this build, and it became somewhat popular in my clan. And really, I'm speaking from an experience (at least B - A- ranks, I'm B+). You don't see this get pulled out at low levels (C+ - ish) because it's somewhat multitasking heavy, but if you practice this right you will almost never lose just because you were behind by 12 nexus
this sounds really interesting, and id like to give it a try
are there any replays you are willing to share with us?
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
I'm puzzled by this. How can it be difficult to defend both the main and the natural when the Terran has diverted 300/250 for a starport and dropship? The attack will be delayed (or weaker) than a 2 factory rush, either of which should render it ineffective because the opponent's economy is bigger than yours - delaying your attack is only to your detriment.
2 fac port should lose miserably to 12 nex --> gateways + robo.
It's not really delaying attack. You attack a little and pick off things consistently as your vultures come out. When dropship comes, you can attack both main and nat now. The key is to keep harrassing consistently. If you fail this, it means your micro just wasn't at the level. And I'm not delaying my starport. P's probes are busy running around and getting sniped, while my 2nd cc is almost completed in the nat. Even if I decide to stop harrassing by the time my 2nd cc completes I am suddenly ahead in economy.
I've practiced a lot with Korean A- protoesses in my clan last season with this build vs 12 nexus. They were also pretty skeptical at first but they kept getting raped almost everytime I did this build, and it became somewhat popular in my clan. And really, I'm speaking from an experience (at least B - A- ranks, I'm B+). You don't see this get pulled out at low levels (C+ - ish) because it's somewhat multitasking heavy, but if you practice this right you will almost never lose just because you were behind by 12 nexus
this sounds really interesting, and id like to give it a try
are there any replays you are willing to share with us?
I removed everything that has to do with SC after end of last season since I wanted to get some work done, so I will ask my friends whom I practiced with (or some ladder games I played on iccup, I use same ID on iccup : mieda) if they have replays from last season. When I do, I'll post it.
Again, the point is to be consistently harrassing and diverting the protoss eyes, and when dropship arrives you'll have enough units to attack *both* the main and the nat, about 4 vultures in each locations. This is where you need to multitask a lot and is also the main difference between this and 1 fax port, since you need to put down mines / micro vultures in both locations at once, while building that 2nd cc and producing at home.
I'm forgetting some small details now for some reason (it's been couple months since I didn't touch SC), so I'll go see if my clanmates or other friends have replays from last season.
[Edit]
Here's IDRA doing a similar build vs. 12 nex, though P here goes dark so totally gets raped without T having to do much multitasking.
I stipulate again that if you're failing this, then you just aren't playing fast enough / not good enough multitasking. You probably won't see this at C+ / low B- level. More stipulation: The point of this build is VERY DIFFERENT from 1 fax port or 2 fax.
2 fact 1 port only worked that well in the Nony v. Idra game because Nony followed up his 12 nex with a DT drop. A different response (i.e. 3 gate goon with fast obs) could deal with 2 fact 1 port vulture pretty easily. Just split up half the goons at each base, and have an obs for mines.
On May 04 2010 10:51 DTK-m2 wrote: 2 fact 1 port only worked that well in the Nony v. Idra game because Nony followed up his 12 nex with a DT drop. A different response (i.e. 3 gate goon with fast obs) could deal with 2 fact 1 port vulture pretty easily. Just split up half the goons at each base, and have an obs for mines.
I agree - I don't see how spending more than the cost of 2 goons + 1 obs for a dropship will be worthwhile, particularly when Terran is the one with the weaker economy. If Protoss stays at home, it's very easy to split units between the main and the natural, and if the concern is siege tanks claiming a position, well... a robo (--> shuttle) takes care of that.
Is there a particular map this 2 fac 1 port build is meant for? I could see it on Andromeda because of all the open space in the main, and the droppable cliff overlooking the natural, but not on, say, Tornado.
2 fact works if you send like 8 fucking scvs, especially on closer positions. the build i use as terran when i think my opponent is going 12 nexus or 1 gate robo (if they are a relatively smart/conservative player that isn't old school enough to 2 gate obs that often) is the Joyo build.
9 depot 11 rax 12 gas 15 fact depot 2nd fact when first is ~60% dont 2nd marine before 2nd fact in my opinion pump marines tank when first machine shop is done should start making with 2nd machine shop make 2 tanks from the 2 facts + vult speed + spidermines go with 3 tanks and a control group of marine scvs while rallying vultures off 2 facts if you cannot kill a 12 nexus with this you need to be able to control and micro better
What do you think about this strategy?: -Fac before 2nt sup -vult before shop -after shop, another vult and research mines -a tank
If the toss sends out his first 1 or 2 zealots, your second vulture will finish just as they get into the natural. If you can delay the goons from advancing for 10 seconds by microing the first vulture (after picking off a couple probes), it will give you time to finish researching and plant 3 mines before the first 2 goons reach your base (with literally like 1 second to spare.) Your tank will have just finished.
You have to remember that 12 nexusing tosses usually severely cut probes to get a quick early army. If you start your cc at 3:30, (and you should be able to,) toss will have usualy only produced about 5 or 6 probes out of his second nexus by the time your cc finishes. Another thing important to note is that terran units are more economical than toss units, so I believe its ok to be a couple behind on the worker count.
This is the best possible counter that I can think of for standard maps (currently testing it on moon glaive,) that provides a 100% wrinkle-free option to switch to standard siege expand if the toss doesn't 12 nexus.
On May 08 2010 07:58 Rkie wrote: siege expand or medic-marine rush. the medic marine rush is very good, treat this like a sunken buster vs zerg and you should be fine
Can you provide a couple B- or higher level replays proving that MnM is an effective strategy?
Edit:
On May 08 2010 08:00 SturmAddict wrote: Just watch Flash games from the recent OSL.
He responded to 12 nexus with a double expand, and worked each time.
Did the protoss go 2 base bulldog, like stork did vs fantasy when he went for double expand (stork won ezpz1a2a3a)?
In game 2. Pure attacked with a dozen dragoons and 4 zealots dropped. Flash had 2 tanks initially and 12-14 SCV's mining. All entrances blocked with supply depots. Zealots dropped but tanks ignored them and shot the goons funneled through the supplies SCV-->block goons and repair tanks
in the end lots of goons dead, and flash was able to reinforce with tanks from main. Pure countered with an expand. And Flash pushed once his 9 fact kicked in, 20 supply ahead
On May 08 2010 16:32 SturmAddict wrote: Yes, pure did + Show Spoiler +
In game 2. Pure attacked with a dozen dragoons and 4 zealots dropped. Flash had 2 tanks initially and 12-14 SCV's mining. All entrances blocked with supply depots. Zealots dropped but tanks ignored them and shot the goons funneled through the supplies SCV-->block goons and repair tanks
in the end lots of goons dead, and flash was able to reinforce with tanks from main. Pure countered with an expand. And Flash pushed once his 9 fact kicked in, 20 supply ahead
He didn't do a 2 base all-in; he took his third when he had 3 gateways. This made his bulldog way weaker than it could have been (especially if he had made a 2nt shuttle.)
Well, the thing is, pure immediately attacked after his first observer found the 3rd.
Thats pretty much the earliest point you can really hurt someone after a 12 nex, or risk walking goons all over mines. If one obs is used to find thirds and another to clear mines, it takes even more time to be able to attack.
It is very difficult to scout because the 3rd CC is built inbase, and 4 marines can easily kill any probe scouting.
It is definitely safe against dt drops and reaver drops , because flash had turrets placed on each expansion + tanks. That means you need a bulldog stronger then a reaver drop, in addition you need obs unless you want to shuttle stuff from your base straight to his.
you need to watch the games really. Flash counter-expanded in all three games with great success. Its not as risky as BBS and it gets the job done
Forward rax. There is a certain beauty to this build
Firstly, lets look at the current play style of 50:50 12 nex or 1 base fast obs.
Both of this builds are incapable of taking down because the fact timing isnt delayed much; and worst comes to worst it will just be a normal FD followed by a standard game
However, if the opponent goes 12 nex; you have a good chance to take down the nexus with a bunker rush, putting you ahead in tech and even expansion for a certain ammount of time.
In the Flash vs free replay, it should be noted that free only made one gateway. This version of 12 nexus is so weak that a simple joyo could easily take it down. A bunker rush will own it, as in the replay.
But if they go 2 gate after 12 nexus, I think a bunker rush will be of questionable effectiveness. A lot of the time the toss will be able to hold it off if he pulls a large number of probes. He will be able to defend even better if he builds both gates before the core.
About the forward barracks: it seems like a cool idea, and I'll have to experiment with it. However, a very major problem I foresee is when the the toss attacks with his very first zealot. I'm inclined to say that if he goes 8 scout then zealot before core, it will hard counter this build.
I'll have to rewatch the Flash vs Pure replays again, but I'm just not sure how you will be able to defend against a fast reaver combined with goon bulldog. Remember that you will have to distribute your forces over three different bases, and your entire force basically comes from one or two factories. Of course you can put a couple siege tanks at each expo, but then toss can just carry a pair of zealots to absorb siege tank fire before the reaver shoots.
Watch many flash and KTF game since KT has the mindset that 12nex isn't safe they have all ways of countering it. In one game Flash even does the bunker rush with the vulture but dsn't manage to kill his opponent of so he combines it with a fast third. Flash is really awesome
Hidden expansion! Or scout at 12 on a map like fighting spirit so the scv gets to the 3rd base right as your factory finishes allowing you to make vult instead of addon!
I've been doing M+M pushes after a 1 rax expand. As long as you go before obs at your base he won't know wtf to do. It works 40-60% of the time, everytime.
That guide isn't good. If you pull 10-12 scvs like it tells you to then the Protoss can just make as many probes as he can from his nat, evacuate the probes, and come out economically ahead even if his nexus dies.
On June 10 2010 04:54 ella_guru wrote: I've been doing M+M pushes after a 1 rax expand. As long as you go before obs at your base he won't know wtf to do. It works 40-60% of the time, everytime.
- Scout with a second SCV to the other close distance, then Bunker Rush there if he goes 12 Nexus. This will work 66% if he goes 12 Nexus, if he is cross positions he gets his 33% good start. Puts you behind a bit on timings if he goes normal, but still better than always getting 12 Nexed. - Find a timing to send scouting SCV, then only scout the first natural. If you see no 12 Nex there send it immediately cross position to the other close position. Don't even scout the main of the first base you scout. Then check if he 12-Nexed at other cross positions. It will still be early enough for Bunker Rush if you get the timing right. If he didn't 12 Nex at any of those tweo bases, just use the SCV to scout regularly.
Oh god stop it with all these 1 fact into double / faster 3rd expo builds to "counter" 12 nex.
You're suggesting getting a fast 3rd off 1-2 factories production against an already economically ahead toss?
You'll die so hard to any P that goes 2gate -> robo -> 2-4 more gates with citadel.
Watching tons of vods of progaming vods where the P when 12 nex, usually T can't do shit if the 12 nex is scouted late. You just have to accept your disadvantage and either scout earlier / hope for better luck next time. Simple as that.
SoManyDeadLings is 100% correct. If P 12 nexes and gets away he is in the lead. There is no later counter than a bunker rush or bunker/vulture rush to it. If he gets away with it you have to play catch up.
On June 10 2010 04:54 ella_guru wrote: I've been doing M+M pushes after a 1 rax expand. As long as you go before obs at your base he won't know wtf to do. It works 40-60% of the time, everytime.
Somehow this question pops up every few months and the same things get repeated; unfortunately they aren't the right ones. It's especially funny to see 2 fact get mentioned several times despite the OP.
Here's the only options that work (stay far away from anything else):
1) Bunker rush is the least situational option, but also the worst overall. If you forward rax them on a 2 player map you end up ahead because you only need to pull a couple of scvs. Otherwise you need to send 4-7 scvs to ensure victory if they fight with probes/zealot. Obviously if they fight you and they lose then you win the game, but their best option unless you really skimp on scvs is to simply make probes and keep mining until the last moment. If they do this they will end up ahead. The only reason why it works for Flash so well is because he skimps on scvs if he's close positions and he out-micros them very badly. That normally isn't feasible though so it's not a good idea to use as an example.
2) oov's build is quite good overall but you run the risk of the harass doing no damage if they stick on 2 base (arb or carrier). Great option if you have good attacking senses since the normal transition of an overly fast 3rd is toast vs oovs.
3) 1 fact double expand is the strongest/safest option but it is map dependent. Your 3rd doesn't have to be completely hidden away like Gods Garden or Andromeda but it needs to be not too far away, have safe transit from nat, and able to be walled.
Pro games of it are pretty limited since it was pretty much unknown for years. Boxer/rA on Blitz, Light/Jangbi on Andro, and Mvp/Best+Stork on MP and FS are the only ones I'm aware of, though I'm not up to date so there might've been some games after the last two. In order to block 12 Nex -> 4 gate shuttle bulldog allin you need to get 2nd fact + addon asap and ebay before anything else while walling off. Some maps have anomalies though so you'll need to adapt it to individual maps. For example, on Fighting Spirit you can't do it if they are clockwise from you because they will arrive at your 3rd too fast. I've tested this dozens of times and it works out no matter what they do so long as the map is viable. You always end up way ahead and can gain a huge advantage or win the game with a mass fact 0/1 timing attack.
4) Rax expand. Not great and requires excellent defensive skills to be able to pull it off versus other openings but you won't be much behind either.
And fyi if you just do a normal siege expand vs 12 Nexus you are significantly behind with every other transition. It's absolutely suicidal to do a 2 base timing attack, Flash build doesn't have a 2/1 window, you can't do a 2nd fact after cc timing attack, and Hiya build doesn't work. You can recover but all normal timings and options are gone, so good luck with that.
9 suply 10 rax 10 gas 15 fact 16 suply 22 suply 28 suply 40 cc Pull two scvs off gas once you've reached 100. Never stop scv production in the beginning, if u have not enough minerals for both scv and marine, make scv unless you notice that the protoss is making an early zealot. Scout pretty late, usually as the barrack finnishes. When factory is finnished, pull back scvs to gas and take 2 off again once the first tank has started building. Then put back scvs on gas again when you have started making the cc. Make 8 marines total, 2 tanks, 2 vultures rallypointed. Research mines after you've started making your second tank, you should have 200 gas after the first tank is finnished.
On June 13 2010 21:31 splcer wrote: 9 suply 10 rax 10 gas 15 fact 16 suply 22 suply 28 suply 40 cc Pull two scvs off gas once you've reached 100. Never stop scv production in the beginning, if u have not enough minerals for both scv and marine, make scv unless you notice that the protoss is making an early zealot. Scout pretty late, usually as the barrack finnishes. When factory is finnished, pull back scvs to gas and take 2 off again once the first tank has started building. Then put back scvs on gas again when you have started making the cc. Make 8 marines total, 2 tanks, 2 vultures rallypointed. Research mines after you've started making your second tank, you should have 200 gas after the first tank is finnished.
That's Strong FD and its even weaker than 2 fac and weaker economically than fd or siege expand. Therefore, this build gets rolled.
If your feeling unorthodox, how about responding with m&m +tanks? I´v done it several times (C-) and it works really well, also it will piss your opponent off and give u a laugh. Most of the time, when the toss 12nex they will pump goons and delay obs/tech, and that is great when u respond with m&m +tanks.
Probably not viable at all at higher levels though :D
I just 14 CC every game on FS, no matter who I'm against. It's so funny and fun. Zerg usually 12 hatches - you are safe enough. Protoss usually 12 nexes - you are ahead and they probably dont know how to react. If they 2 gate its not too hard to bunker repair. You only really get raped if they commit to zealots. Build more bunkers and survive the attack though, you win.
On June 14 2010 02:40 ella_guru wrote: I just 14 CC every game on FS, no matter who I'm against. It's so funny and fun. Zerg usually 12 hatches - you are safe enough. Protoss usually 12 nexes - you are ahead and they probably dont know how to react. If they 2 gate its not too hard to bunker repair. You only really get raped if they commit to zealots. Build more bunkers and survive the attack though, you win.
Off topic, but how do you respond to a zergling all-in like effort did against flash? You can only make a wall with 3 buildings on half the positions on FS.
On June 14 2010 02:40 ella_guru wrote: I just 14 CC every game on FS, no matter who I'm against. It's so funny and fun. Zerg usually 12 hatches - you are safe enough. Protoss usually 12 nexes - you are ahead and they probably dont know how to react. If they 2 gate its not too hard to bunker repair. You only really get raped if they commit to zealots. Build more bunkers and survive the attack though, you win.
Off topic, but how do you respond to a zergling all-in like effort did against flash? You can only make a wall with 3 buildings on half the positions on FS.
On June 14 2010 02:40 ella_guru wrote: I just 14 CC every game on FS, no matter who I'm against. It's so funny and fun. Zerg usually 12 hatches - you are safe enough. Protoss usually 12 nexes - you are ahead and they probably dont know how to react. If they 2 gate its not too hard to bunker repair. You only really get raped if they commit to zealots. Build more bunkers and survive the attack though, you win.
What are u D+? Even 1 gate can beat 14 CC especially if they make zealot first. Against zerg, 14cc stands no chance against 9 pool, ur barracks wont even finish by then. 14 CC is only good in best of X matches and solely depends on luck. Please stop posting ur horrible advice in this thread.
On June 14 2010 02:40 ella_guru wrote: I just 14 CC every game on FS, no matter who I'm against. It's so funny and fun. Zerg usually 12 hatches - you are safe enough. Protoss usually 12 nexes - you are ahead and they probably dont know how to react. If they 2 gate its not too hard to bunker repair. You only really get raped if they commit to zealots. Build more bunkers and survive the attack though, you win.
What are u D+?
Yes.
If it worked all the time, everyone would use it all the time.
On June 14 2010 02:40 ella_guru wrote: I just 14 CC every game on FS, no matter who I'm against. It's so funny and fun. Zerg usually 12 hatches - you are safe enough. Protoss usually 12 nexes - you are ahead and they probably dont know how to react. If they 2 gate its not too hard to bunker repair. You only really get raped if they commit to zealots. Build more bunkers and survive the attack though, you win.
What are u D+?
Yes.
If it worked all the time, everyone would use it all the time.
Flash did it on Match Point. On Match point.
I'd advice to watch Day9s 100th vid. Not only is it awesome, he also talks about why your approach (and back then his approach, when he was new) to the game is a failure.
On June 14 2010 02:40 ella_guru wrote: I just 14 CC every game on FS, no matter who I'm against. It's so funny and fun. Zerg usually 12 hatches - you are safe enough. Protoss usually 12 nexes - you are ahead and they probably dont know how to react. If they 2 gate its not too hard to bunker repair. You only really get raped if they commit to zealots. Build more bunkers and survive the attack though, you win.
What are u D+?
Yes.
If it worked all the time, everyone would use it all the time.
Flash did it on Match Point. On Match point.
I'd advice to watch Day9s 100th vid. Not only is it awesome, he also talks about why your approach (and back then his approach, when he was new) to the game is a failure.
I saw it! He's a great speaker and has a really genuine personality. It was terribly emotional and love that he is so honest about his love for his fam.
On June 14 2010 02:40 ella_guru wrote: I just 14 CC every game on FS, no matter who I'm against. It's so funny and fun. Zerg usually 12 hatches - you are safe enough. Protoss usually 12 nexes - you are ahead and they probably dont know how to react. If they 2 gate its not too hard to bunker repair. You only really get raped if they commit to zealots. Build more bunkers and survive the attack though, you win.
What are u D+?
Yes.
If it worked all the time, everyone would use it all the time.
Flash did it on Match Point. On Match point.
-_-. Again, Flash did a best of X series. If they play a person like out of 5 games, u can take a good guess how safe going 14 CC is. This build dependson luck, nothing else.
Double CC is so horribly luck based in TvP. At least against Zerg theeeeeeee most standard opening is 12hatch by far over any other opening. This is just not the case with Protoss. Opening 1gate is still by far the most common opening even with the recent and already passed nexus first mania.
EPT
) The thing is, you need to constantly scout. If he fakes something you need to be aware of it
