I know there are countless threads on this, but nothing the threads say really works for me and almost all are extremely dangerous/risky and require some luck
Here are a list of different counters i managed to scrap up from other threads: 1. Bunker Rush - Fails if u scout late 2. Fac-Port- Can but u behind VERY economically if it does no damage 3. 1 Fac Double expand- very unsafe esp in maps where third is hard to defend 4. iloveoov build- Has to kill many probes and terran will lose third if it is quickly discovered 5. Rax Expand- Dies to any proxy 6. BBS- Loses to everything but 12 nexus 7. 14 CC- Loses to any early aggression 8. 2 Fac Starport - Don't no how to do this one but very low eco and must kill many probes
The map i like to play on is Fighting Spirit and almost every other Protoss does 12 nex and rolls me unless my macro is a lot better than his. Assuming that i scout the Protoss too late to do a bunker rush, what do you think is the best counter?
Also It would help if someone would explain fac port because it seems like it would be very easy for a Protoss to defend by sending like 2 goons in main when drop comes. I dont get how i can even the economic advantage with only 4 vult unless P has poor reaction time. I would think u would need to kill at least 12 probes to balance the economies, and that seems almost impossible with jjust 4 vult
And exactly how do you do the 1 fac double expand when the 3rd base is not in the main? I know you are supposed to make vultures with mines since the oppononent will have late obs cuz of the 12 nexus, but exactly how many are u supposed to make before making tanks? I have tried this build numerous times, but once his obs are out, they either storm into my third or contain me outside my base because of the few tanks i have. Then, they destroy my third which i can't defend because of the contain.
Im really interested if anybody has some replays of either 1 fac double expand or 2 fact starport because those seem to be the best choice of BO when u scout the 12 nex very late
2 FAC DOES NOT WORK VER AND IDRA HAVE CONFIRMED IT STOP POSTING IT
Well, I don't think you need to exactly counter 12 nex with a specific build...for example you could counter 12 nex by delaying an ebay (if you scout upgrades on core) and taking a quick third (though not as quick as double expand...thx, Stylish ) The thing is, you need to constantly scout. If he fakes something you need to be aware of it
i dont know what the iloveoov build is but the best option imo is the bunker rush. if you scout late, you can go for a 2fact with many tanks and marines as shown here srry dont know how to embed videos.
On May 01 2010 07:52 kineSiS- wrote: 1Fac Vulture to SCV push. You should 2-4 marines by then.
I never heard of this counter but im pretty sure it can be easily defended by P if he pulls some probes and uses Dragoon micro. Replay pls?
Well, I don't think you need to exactly counter 12 nex with a specific build...for example you could counter 12 nex by delaying an ebay (if you scout upgrades on core) and taking a quick third (though not as quick as double expand...thx, Stylish ) The thing is, you need to constantly scout. If he fakes something you need to be aware of it
That only works in Stylish's VOD because the map was colloseum and u can easily defend all 3 expos at the same time.
On May 01 2010 07:56 FyRe_DragOn wrote: i dont know what the iloveoov build is but the best option imo is the bunker rush. if you scout late, you can go for a 2fact with many tanks and marines as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TmWhB_3nDM srry dont know how to embed videos.
edit: seems it did it for me anyway
Whoa, but from what I found out from threads, 12 Nex was designed to fend off 2 fac aggression by cutting probes. This is the build Artosis demonstrates in his tutorial if im not mistaken. Does anybody know why this 2 fac worked for Sea.Really when 12 nex is supposed to be defendable against 2 fac?
12 nexus exists to soft counter a supply-rax-refinery-factory opening on a large map. That's the point of the build, so if you opened supply-rax-refinery-factory, you should be at a disadvantage. If you want economic parity/advantage, you have to put the CC earlier; if you want to be able to rush your opponent out, you need the rax earlier.
If I were Terran and spotted a 12 nexus after I'd started my factory, I would go 1 fac vultures (mines, no tanks), take my natural and get a fast third CC in my natural, pump SCVs, add factories and tanks, and then claim my third (float the CC and move into position) when the Protoss takes his third. Although maybe it would be smarter to place the third CC at the third base, and be ready to evacuate if you scout the Protoss playing 2 base aggression rather than taking a third of his own.
It's irritating even if I don't go 12 nex. Just try to out-multitask him, make him use the early dragoons to defend, get your natural and try to do a good sim city to prevent early harass from killing you.
but as you said, if you don't do significant damage, you're good as dead..just try to play aggressive, look for holes in his defense since 12 nex is vulnerable before eco kicks in.
Well, considering if he 12 nexus, let's say you opened standard 9 supply and 11 rax:
Scout him first --> Bunker rush delays him from mining from half his probes, allowing you to rax-> expo and be ahead.
OR
all-in 2 fact build, which comes down to a game of micro (this build DOESN'T work if you opened standard, but works great if you opened 10/10/10 and your opponent is unable to scout it
OR
1 fact bunker rush --> this is the bane of all protoss players. You will likely kill his nexus and set up a decent temporary contain. Be careful about shuttles and DTs tho as this build allows the toss to tech while you rape his expo
In most situations you scout the toss first, you have an advantage in that he is vurnerable to different build you might try. But if you don't apply pressure or go fast cc, he will still be ahead.
Now, say you scout him second
Now, bunker rush seems to be not that great of an idea anymore, but DO NOT be discouraged to put up a bunker to piss him off.
Ofcourse, now, adding a second factory for 2 fact probably isn't the most viable strategy. He can pull probes and still be ahead of you. HOWEVER
If you've already got a in the making, why not go dropship and fe? Also, another great build I find again is the 1 fact push.
Overall, in most situations, you are only down by a marginal amount.
Okay, finally you scout him last.
In this case, it's probably safest to go 1 fact expo. You're moderately behind with this build, but in this case apply early pressure on him, and try going for a fast third or try to timing attack him while he tries to set up his third to rid his advantage.
So no, 12 nexus isn't the funnest build to play edit:against, but hey I've never met any Terran players who enjoy getting their asses 1a2a3a'd by me and my crappyass 120 apm C+ness
1) You out position / micro your opponent to a large degree. In Movie vs Really, Movie actually does the worst thing he could possibly do and half-walls himself in with pylons fearing early vulture aggression. However, Really does a blind 2fact with a bunch of tanks, only rallying vultures after he's already moved out. Movie's goons get contained and can't pick off tanks, forcing him to pull probes to get into a better position. It was overall a weird game and not the best example, though, due to the fact both of them were playing so far in the dark.
2) You really make your opponent believe you're not doing a 2fact, but a strong FD or something similar. Your opponent continues to play a bit greedy, you reinforce with more than expected, and either win straight up or force a ton of probe destruction like in the previous example. I've seen this work, but I don't think it's nearly as viable as your other options.
So yeah, 2fact vs 12nex is still a big risk, and no one should really be recommending it, especially at this level of play. To be honest, the economic advantage a player gains from 12nex can easily be overcome by standard openings in even mid level games. I'm not sure I would feel obligated to do something about it if you scout 12nex unless you're sure that the advantage they're going to get over you expanding as soon as you scout is going to be game breaking.
bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Scout at 12 always on 4 player maps 14 on 1v1 maps.
By scouting at 12 on a map like fighting spirit it allows you to skip the machine shop addon and make a fast vult even if you scout him last (the timing will be literally perfect as soon as the fact finishes ur scv will scout the 3rd natural) u send 4rines+vult+6scvs, if microed well it's very hard for protoss to defend this all u need to do is get bunker up I usually start it with the initial scv scout. There are some varations to double nexus where they get 2 zealot or just go straight for goon+range. Either way all u need to do is micro well. Don't pull more than 6 scvs or he can just sac the expo and you econ will be further behind his.
Kill his nexus while u start ur expo and u'll be ahead. U have to watch out for 2 things though fast dt and the goon counter at ur nat.
On May 01 2010 06:16 Omgoodnessess wrote: I know there are countless threads on this, but nothing the threads say really works for me and almost all are extremely dangerous/risky and require some luck
Here are a list of different counters i managed to scrap up from other threads: 1. Bunker Rush - Fails if u scout late 2. Fac-Port- Can but u behind VERY economically if it does no damage 3. 1 Fac Double expand- very unsafe esp in maps where third is hard to defend 4. iloveoov build- Has to kill many probes or the terran will get rolled cuz of few tanks 5. Rax Expand- Dies to any proxy 6. BBS- Loses to everything but 12 nexus 7. 14 CC- Loses to any early aggression
The map i like to play on is Fighting Spirit and almost every other Protoss does 12 nex and rolls me unless my macro is a lot better than his. Assuming that i scout the Protoss too late to do a bunker rush, what do you think is the best counter?
Also It would help if someone would explain fac port because it seems like it would be very easy for a Protoss to defend by sending like 2 goons in main when drop comes. I dont get how i can even the economic advantage with only 4 vult unless P has poor reaction time. I would think u would need to kill at least 12 probes to balance the economies, and that seems almost impossible with jjust 4 vult
And exactly how do you do the 1 fac double expand when the 3rd base is not in the main? I know you are supposed to make vultures with mines since the oppononent will have late obs cuz of the 12 nexus, but exactly how many are u supposed to make before making tanks? I have tried this build numerous times, but once his obs are out, they either storm into my third or contain me outside my base because of the few tanks i have. Then, they destroy my third which i can't defend because of the contain.
Think about what you wrote. You play on Fighting Spirit. The third is easy to defend -> 1fact double expand is viable. Almost every protoss does 12 nexus. Go for 1rax expand!
Think about what you wrote. You play on Fighting Spirit. The third is easy to defend -> 1fact double expand is viable. Almost every protoss does 12 nexus. Go for 1rax expand!
Well I also asked in this thread how to properly do a 1 fact double expand. I do not know how many vultures to make before tanks and where to place mines and a rough build order. I actually would like to know this because it seems this is one of the "safer" builds I listed above
And as for 1 rax expand, as i said, if the opponent didn't 12 nex and proxied, i auto-lose. Watch Idra vs Nony TSL R8 on Fighting Spirit to see the weakness of rax expand. I feel really uncomfortable just blindly doing a build order that can get countered if they luckily do a proxy.
Idras mistake in that game is that he didn't block the choke again with his cc or his rax. Besides if most protoss does 12 nex you will chose a good build against them most of the time, right? And you could send a scout at 10 to check for proxy as well.
2-3 vults before tanks. typically if you get a bunker up he needs a decent number of goons+range to take it out. that gives u plenty of time to get a bunker+ur nat up and a tank with siege out.
EPT
) The thing is, you need to constantly scout. If he fakes something you need to be aware of it
