Watch replays of the KT Terrans. The KT house simply doesn't believe that 12nex is safe and have a good success rate with their counters. + Show Spoiler +
ForGG just beat Kal in the OSL
with a bunker rush and 2fac follow through. Flash does a lot of bunker rushes and micros better than most, so you can tell that he's practiced this scenario a lot.
Something to note on a 4-player map is that you want to scout at a good time to spot a 12nex. Some people scout diagonally, but that's your choice for the counter you have in mind. If you scout last you're going to need a lot of SCVs to make it work.
If you're set on bunkering Flash style, opening FD is better than siege expo (you'll have marines and less gas built up), and if you open vult before machine shop you should have enough marines and a vult on the way if your scout arrives last. You will have to pull some SCVs to ensure the bunker finishes and to block probes from simply chasing out your army, more SCVs the later you start your bunker. Personally, I wouldn't rush if I scouted last on a 4-player map.
Taking a fast 3rd is the "correct" response, but I'm not experienced on the tactics to establish this safely. I assume it involves ample spider mine presence and threat of harassment.
I said this in another thread: if you go for a fast 3rd, how the heck would you respond to any sort of 2 base build by toss, for example, 2 base carrier?
On May 02 2010 02:51 4iner wrote: I said this in another thread: if you go for a fast 3rd, how the heck would you respond to any sort of 2 base build by toss, for example, 2 base carrier?
If Protoss does a 2-base tech build, you should be way ahead, since he can't attack you until his tech is out and you have a sexy economy. I imagine you would counter a two base carrier build with goliaths, missile turrets, and upgrades.
If he does a 2-base all-in such as a two base bulldog, you may have a difficult time. I dunno if it's plausible to hold a third against such aggression. (But if it isn't, you can just pull all your SCVs out of the third and fly the CC --> you have a much better econ and are favored to win.)
I personally don't go 12 Nexus anymore as it's just a HUGE pain in the ass beating the rallied rine + 6-7 scv + vult rush. If they have some good micro its very difficult to keep your nexus at all.
On May 02 2010 00:13 Omgoodnessess wrote: How many vultures b4 tanks??? Still didn't answer question
As with everything in Starcraft there isn't an exact number when you should do something. Taken from Liquipedia:
After the second Factory the build depends on what the Protoss is doing. The priorities are to research Siege Mode, start producing Tanks, and get an Engineering Bay and Turrets to block possible drops. From there, two Armories are advised, although more Factories might be required first if the Protoss is massing off of 2 bases.
2 fact vultures are a decent response, as is 2 rax mass rines/SCV's. basically any early rush play will work,
have you looked at the joy-o rush on liquipedia?
basically, what you need to think about is that, based on the nature of the 12 nex, you can either kill it quickly, which obviously hurts your econ, but will hurt his more, or you can try to catch up all mid game, which is difficult and not adviseable if you don't have way better macro than your opponent.
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
Stork someone played someone on match point, and they took a quick third in response because they didn't scout it early enough for a bunker rush. Forget who it was though.
There are many tipes of 2 fakt, some of thous works vs 12 nex some doesnt. Usually you do a 1 tank vultures and rins, vs 12 nex wait until 5 tanks and just then research mines, speed is really not needed in this situation
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
I'm puzzled by this. How can it be difficult to defend both the main and the natural when the Terran has diverted 300/250 for a starport and dropship? The attack will be delayed (or weaker) than a 2 factory rush, either of which should render it ineffective because the opponent's economy is bigger than yours - delaying your attack is only to your detriment.
2 fac port should lose miserably to 12 nex --> gateways + robo.
On May 02 2010 18:59 DarthThienAn wrote: Stork someone played someone on match point, and they took a quick third in response because they didn't scout it early enough for a bunker rush. Forget who it was though.
Both Idra and Ver claims that 2fact will lose to 12nex, then again at low lvl pretty much every early push will probably win vs fast nexus. I'm only C- but I always go for bunker rush with vultures if i scout it fast enough, if I don't I try 1fact double expand and I win more often against 12-14nex than any other protoss strategy.
On May 01 2010 07:56 FyRe_DragOn wrote: i dont know what the iloveoov build is but the best option imo is the bunker rush. if you scout late, you can go for a 2fact with many tanks and marines as shown here srry dont know how to embed videos.
edit: seems it did it for me anyway
It seemed like this worked only because sea.really had some amazing tank micro.
the reason i dotn 12 nex on fighting spirit: 2 fact rush
generally you want to have around: 2-3 vultures (with mine + speed upgrade if u went for 2 machine shops) 2 tanks 1-2 scvs a couple of marines (4+)
this generally allows you to, at the very least, contain your opponent in a way such that it'll be hard for them to break out. from there, just add turrets to make sure you don't die to dts and/or zealot bombs, and make sure to expand yourself after containing your opponent, cause in the chance that he breaks out, you want to be able to have a decent economic lead over him.
Rax then expo as a standard opening seems pretty ballin. Imo, defeating 12 nexus with any kinda rush/gimmicky play takes luck combined with no mistakes in micro -- so you may as well flip a coin, or try a build that doesn't allow players worse than you to win due to the amazing 12 nexus. See flash's last tvp (against free).
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
I'm puzzled by this. How can it be difficult to defend both the main and the natural when the Terran has diverted 300/250 for a starport and dropship? The attack will be delayed (or weaker) than a 2 factory rush, either of which should render it ineffective because the opponent's economy is bigger than yours - delaying your attack is only to your detriment.
2 fac port should lose miserably to 12 nex --> gateways + robo.
It's not really delaying attack. You attack a little and pick off things consistently as your vultures come out. When dropship comes, you can attack both main and nat now. The key is to keep harrassing consistently. If you fail this, it means your micro just wasn't at the level. And I'm not delaying my starport. P's probes are busy running around and getting sniped, while my 2nd cc is almost completed in the nat. Even if I decide to stop harrassing by the time my 2nd cc completes I am suddenly ahead in economy.
I've practiced a lot with Korean A- protoesses in my clan last season with this build vs 12 nexus. They were also pretty skeptical at first but they kept getting raped almost everytime I did this build, and it became somewhat popular in my clan. And really, I'm speaking from an experience (at least B - A- ranks, I'm B+). You don't see this get pulled out at low levels (C+ - ish) because it's somewhat multitasking heavy, but if you practice this right you will almost never lose just because you were behind by 12 nexus
omfg just scout when you start your barracks, unless you scout them last, the bunker rush should work. If you do scout them last, you still have a chance, but your very unlucky
On May 01 2010 13:17 AmstAff wrote: bunkerrush, if you scout too late try to get 1vult before addon and get some probekills and make a transition into 2 fax port and drop vultures. during your harassment expand. imo its important that you dont lose the dropship, because i drop like every 2minutes and during the drop in the main i harass the natural with a different group of vultures.
Add this suggestion by AmstAff. 2 fax port worked for me in most instances at B level last season. I think it worked for me every time actually in the sense that it at least even'ed the game. Your harrass needs to be somewhat decent, but just practice that a little.
The main difference vs. 1 fax port is that with 2 fax port, you can attack both P's nat and its main (some multitasking required here, practice it), and he won't have enough goons to defend both if you micro your vultures/mines properly.
Sometimes P followed up 12 nex by canons, in which case I just pushed and at least killed his nexus.
Btw, 1 fax port really wasn't as effective as 2 fax port for me at all. I suggest not using 1 fax port. But 2 fax port works
I'm puzzled by this. How can it be difficult to defend both the main and the natural when the Terran has diverted 300/250 for a starport and dropship? The attack will be delayed (or weaker) than a 2 factory rush, either of which should render it ineffective because the opponent's economy is bigger than yours - delaying your attack is only to your detriment.
2 fac port should lose miserably to 12 nex --> gateways + robo.
It's not really delaying attack. You attack a little and pick off things consistently as your vultures come out. When dropship comes, you can attack both main and nat now. The key is to keep harrassing consistently. If you fail this, it means your micro just wasn't at the level. And I'm not delaying my starport. P's probes are busy running around and getting sniped, while my 2nd cc is almost completed in the nat. Even if I decide to stop harrassing by the time my 2nd cc completes I am suddenly ahead in economy.
I've practiced a lot with Korean A- protoesses in my clan last season with this build vs 12 nexus. They were also pretty skeptical at first but they kept getting raped almost everytime I did this build, and it became somewhat popular in my clan. And really, I'm speaking from an experience (at least B - A- ranks, I'm B+). You don't see this get pulled out at low levels (C+ - ish) because it's somewhat multitasking heavy, but if you practice this right you will almost never lose just because you were behind by 12 nexus
this sounds really interesting, and id like to give it a try
are there any replays you are willing to share with us?
EPT
