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Active: 1710 users

[G] Elegant prevention of Gas Steal in TvP - Page 4

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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nicoaldo
Profile Joined March 2009
Argentina939 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-27 02:33:45
February 27 2010 02:31 GMT
#61
I though horror gates werein base, in the mineral line and from manner pylons...
7 gate in desti isnt beaten by a "maze", cause that works vs 1 zealots, once your opponent has 2 zealots vs 2-3 of your marines you cant micro up and down the crack; and he can just go for your mineral line/scvs building factory and kill them.
U will probably need a bunker or sick micro to defend, also toss gets goons pretty fast with that build (like after 3-4 zeals), so you need to get control of your main before u have zealots + goons picking stuff.
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
February 27 2010 02:33 GMT
#62
On February 27 2010 11:31 nicoaldo wrote:
i though horror base were in the mineral line from manner pylons...
7 gate in desti isnt beaten by a "maze", cause that works vs 1 zealots, once your opponent has 2 zealots vs 2-3 of your marines you cant micro up and down the crack; and he can just go for your mineral line/scvs building factory and kill them.


Sounds like some pretty bad maze-construction right there.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
February 27 2010 04:51 GMT
#63
On February 26 2010 04:49 niteReloaded wrote:


Show nested quote +
On February 25 2010 11:56 obesechicken13 wrote:
I think this was discussed before on a thread about gas steal alternatives. Everyone yelled at the OP in that thread to just have better reactions and to just lay down your refinery by canceling scvs or other things.

The reason was something about a late factory or something.
Ah here's a thread on the topic
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105306


DO A SEARCH PLS

edit: added some people's quotes
"I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps."

Others say that it's possible to defend against 2 gate on HBR. Try it for yourself before you get to us because the topic has been discussed ad nauseum.

The factory is not delayed. If you're gonna patronize me, at least read the OP and use your own thoughts behind what you write.



Oh, wow sorry, I don't know how I missed the Esc part. Sounds fine. It may delay your rax a few seconds (2/3) from your one missed trip. But otherwise sounds good compared to building both at the same time.

I thought you were one of those lower post count guys (glass house) complaining about how to counter 4 pool or something that was already discussed and probably skipped that. heh..heh... -_-


I think it's fine but I think the gas also comes way later than just getting your rax when you have 150 minerals.

Since now you have to spend 100 minerals on a refinery and then save up 150 for a barracks. I always went rax before refinery. Not both at the same time. I think it may be a better idea to just build your rax before your refinery and just to cancel a scv(if needed) to get enough minerals to build your refinery as soon as you see a probe coming. You should see the probe if you sent your 9 scv to your ramp to build a supply depot. It's certainly safer.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
machinehead..
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
412 Posts
February 28 2010 17:32 GMT
#64
I'd like to thank the original poster for bringing up this strategy. I used to use this as a standard opening, but the problem was I would always send the scv back to the refinery at random times or too late and my factory timing would be off and I would be hating life, so eventually I just got lazy and went refinery before rax without taking the scv off the refinery. But, that style does hurt your economy and this has been a good reminder of it's silly to be that lazy. I would rather take a loss than play-out a game after a gas steal, so I love this build. A+ for original poster.
Reason
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United Kingdom2770 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 20:08:49
March 01 2010 19:02 GMT
#65
I hate large posts in a thread!
+ Show Spoiler +
Some people seem to think this is going to cost you 1-2 seconds somewhere. It does not. It costs you virtually nothing.
There are two ways to do it. Both ways you use the scv closest to the gas to do it. Depending on how many minerals you have compared with what point this particular scv is at [in the given mining/returning cargo cycle] one will be infintesimally better than the other.

Option 1
He mines, returns the mineral, then you select him, move to gas, create gas, hit 'esc' and back to mining.
Option 2
He mines, then you select him, move to gas, create gas, hit 'esc' then 'c'.


You can't even say you have lost 8 minerals because this miniscule detour takes nowhere near as long as it takes an scv to mine... around 1/4 to 1/2 of the time. Also because you do not even have 1 scv per mineral the trip time must also be added to how long it takes an scv to mine.(another scv cannot be mining this mineral, or rather does not need to be)

So basically at the cost of having 8 of your precious minerals delayed by a meagre fraction of how long it takes an scv to travel from cc to the mineral, start mining, turn around then return to cc and drop off cargo (around 5-7 secs) you gaurantee no gas steal.

Even if the 8 minerals went up in a puff of fucking smoke you're talking about losing a fraction of a second on any of your timings, and it doesn't, so we are talking about a fraction of a fraction. Jack shit.

Show nested quote +
On February 27 2010 13:51 obesechicken13 wrote:
On February 26 2010 04:49 niteReloaded wrote:


On February 25 2010 11:56 obesechicken13 wrote:
I think this was discussed before on a thread about gas steal alternatives. Everyone yelled at the OP in that thread to just have better reactions and to just lay down your refinery by canceling scvs or other things.

The reason was something about a late factory or something.
Ah here's a thread on the topic
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105306


DO A SEARCH PLS

edit: added some people's quotes
"I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps."

Others say that it's possible to defend against 2 gate on HBR. Try it for yourself before you get to us because the topic has been discussed ad nauseum.

The factory is not delayed. If you're gonna patronize me, at least read the OP and use your own thoughts behind what you write.


Oh, wow sorry, I don't know how I missed the Esc part. Sounds fine. It may delay your rax a few seconds (2/3) from your one missed trip. But otherwise sounds good compared to building both at the same time.

I thought you were one of those lower post count guys (glass house) complaining about how to counter 4 pool or something that was already discussed and probably skipped that. heh..heh... -_-


I think it's fine but I think the gas also comes way later than just getting your rax when you have 150 minerals.

Since now you have to spend 100 minerals on a refinery and then save up 150 for a barracks. I always went rax before refinery. Not both at the same time. I think it may be a better idea to just build your rax before your refinery and just to cancel a scv(if needed) to get enough minerals to build your refinery as soon as you see a probe coming. You should see the probe if you sent your 9 scv to your ramp to build a supply depot. It's certainly safer.

This post makes me want to smash my head off a wall.
Hey there's an emoticon for this !

You even say oh wow sorry don't know how I missed the Esc part and then [i]continue to claim it will delay by two to three seconds
This won't even delay it half a second.
Then you say it's fine but the gas comes "way later" than just .... let me stop you there. The gas does not come way later than anything. You are talking out of your anus.
You then propose that the real solution is to build rax at normal time and cancel the 12th (I'm assuming you are referring to standard play and thus this is the timing you are speaking of)
scv which is fine if you see it coming which you don't always which is the whole point of this build it eliminates the need for cat-like reflexes and the chance that he might hide until the perfect moment then cruise in faster than you could react to anyway.
On February 25 2010 09:24 ninazerg wrote:
I think that's an absolutely fantastic idea for anyone playing TvP on a 2-player map. Very hot.

But not on a three player map? Care to explain why? Even on a four player map it's not 100% impossible to be gas rushed so why bother specifying 2 player maps as if certain conditions exist in them which make this strategy viable that are not present in larger maps? This is not the case.

Show nested quote +
On February 27 2010 10:21 Sadist wrote:
On February 26 2010 19:54 niteReloaded wrote:
On February 26 2010 10:04 duckett wrote:
your rax is later so you will be weaker to proxy gate
might already have been said /shrug

it's not later, I wouldn't have made the thread if it had such an obvious flaw.

On February 26 2010 14:07 il0seonpurpose wrote:
I'm not sure how many times you get your gas stolen, but when I see a probe coming and my refinery's not being built, I cancel my 12th scv being made and go directly to refinery, works well.

If the protoss is good, and your gas is exposed, you don't have time to do it so this argument is invalid.
On February 26 2010 14:50 Sadist wrote:
if you gas before rax vs proxy gate its autoloss -_-

Let me ask you something, when you scout the proxy, is your normal barracks already building? if yes, it's going to be the same in this build.
If no, and you NEED to build it BUT you don't have minerals, just cancel the damned refinery and make barracks.
You people make silly arguments which makes me think rarely anyone thoroughly read the OP.



try it vs proxy 7 gate on desti and lets see how it works

Seriously? You ask a question, he answers it perfectly for you but you still make this comment? In case you genuinely didn't understand, it makes no difference at all, that is the whole point of this thread; you can prevent gas steal at no cost... so it will work just as well as standard play vs 7 proxy gate on desti.

On February 27 2010 01:25 Catch]22 wrote:
I never saw any reason to actually save up to 250 minerals, I build the rax when I can afford it, and then build the refinery when I can afford it, and if you do it this way, then yes the rax IS a little bit delayed (yeah, I know I could have mined 8 more minerals if I waited another trip, but 8 is not going to win or lose me the game at my level.

Am I underestimating the lost minerals?

I think you mean yes the fact IS a little bit delayed, not the rax.
May I answer your question with a question? Oops too late... hehe
No but really... is there any point in sacrificing minerals for no reason just because you can't be bothered doing it ? That is essentially your question, and the answer is unsurprisingly no.

Side note though
On February 26 2010 03:13 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2010 12:27 Fontong wrote:
Ingenious strategy, but not recommended for Idra.

Underrated post.

hehehehehehe

NiteReloaded did you watch Idra cancel his CC?
Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end of speech is not ostentation, but to be understood.
3FFA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States3931 Posts
March 04 2010 02:57 GMT
#66
best forum topic ever made in strat forum right here lol.
"As long as it comes from a pure place and from a honest place, you know, you can write whatever you want."
TriniMasta
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1323 Posts
March 04 2010 03:43 GMT
#67
lol getting your gas build doesn't hurt you, well technically. It hurts the protoss as well.
sigh always explaining this...
Game 1 OSL Finals FlaSh vs Movie
FlaSh doesn't care if his gas gets stolen, he can still transition into it.
Either switch to bionic (which I dont prefer...) or just fast expand
2-3 scvs is the reasonable amount of scvs you use to attack an assimilator
정명훈 FIGHTING!!! Play both T and P.
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