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I played some ICC today on HBR and Protosses play extremely cheesy and if nothing else, they will steal the gas. They even do that sneeky move Nony made against Idra, where they don't go near other terran buildings, so you can't possibly react in time. (this happens on 9 o'clock on HBR, while on 3 o'clock, the gas is on a silver plate)
So after getting annoyed unnecessarily, I came up with a solid solution that requires almost no sacrifice, and honestly I'm surprised noone popularized this build sooner.
I'm not one of the players that learns their BO to the letter, but as far as I know, almost all standard TvP openings have the same beginning:
9supply
11barracks 11 gas (when you have 250 minerals, you build them at the same time)
If you're a terran player, you know that:
1) there's a period of around 1-2 seconds where you're supply blocked while you're waiting for the first supply to finish
2) you have quite a few minerals in the bank before you start making the Barracks + Refinery
The alternation I made is making the Refinery at 10. The key is to NOT queue the 11th SCV until the supply finishes, you're going to need those 50minerals and the SCV isn't going to start building anyway due to the mentioned supply block. You'll see that you can make the Refinery without any problems at 10 supply. What next? Right after the Refinery starts building, you press ESC while your SCV is still selected and send it to the minerals right away. That way you don't lose the important mining time which is the usual downside of protecting the gas like this. Your supply should finish in the next few seconds, and you produce the 11th SCV normally.
When you get the next 150 minerals, build the Barracks and resume the Refinery construction. Remember not to get carried away and make the 12th SCV before the barracks coz then the build is not the same as the original 11rax11gas anymore.
RESULTS:
- gas is protected relatively early, I'm pretty sure it's safe against normal scout after 1st pylon on a map like HBR
- almost no mining time is lost, at most 1 round of mining of 1 SCV(8minerals)
Is this the next standard opening?
I wonder what TL terrans think, both newbies and experienced guys. So, your comments?
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some plays 10 rax 10 gas. not standard whatsoever because gas before rax is kinda really bad vs proxy play. i would say get use to getting your gas stolen and baracks expand which puts you ahead.
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You didn't read the post. If you do it the way I said, it's almost identical to 11rax11gas. read!
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I always go 11/11 and just take the gas at 100 then take the SCV off it and use it to attack the probe if I see it coming in really early for the gayness.
Yeah, exactly this, been doing it for quite some time ^^
On February 25 2010 09:11 foppa wrote:
some plays 10 rax 10 gas. not standard whatsoever because gas before rax is kinda really bad vs proxy play. i would say get use to getting your gas stolen and baracks expand which puts you ahead.
Except it's really gay when you have to sit there repairing your bunker forever against mad goons while waiting for your tank to come out.
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This sounds feasible.. just a lil extra micro.. i dont see why not =p
good job!
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I think that's an absolutely fantastic idea for anyone playing TvP on a 2-player map. Very hot.
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This is definitely pretty solid, especially since you'd be getting the refinery soon anyway.
I can see this being a good play if you anticipate you're opponent doing some sort of cheese, which is preceeded by a gas steal, but if you don't scout any kind of cheese or proxy rush, expanding after a gas steal is still better because it puts your opponent behind, whereas your idea keeps you and you opponent basically even.
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On February 25 2010 09:18 jello_biafra wrote:
Yeah, exactly this, been doing it for quite some time ^^
I started doing it every TvP just today.
usually, I'd get my gas early only if I see the probe, and I'd feel all guilty and pwned coz he forced me to mess up my build.
This way, you get an equilibrium solution and you frankly don't give a fuck if he's going for the steal or not, it doesn't cost you anything.
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On February 25 2010 09:33 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 09:18 jello_biafra wrote:
Yeah, exactly this, been doing it for quite some time ^^ I started doing it every TvP just today. usually, I'd get my gas early only if I see the probe, and I'd feel all guilty and pwned coz he forced me to mess up my build. This way, you get an equilibrium solution and you frankly don't give a fuck if he's going for the steal or not, it doesn't cost you anything.
Indeed, it is an excellent solution, my friend does it every TvP regardless now, I sometimes do it just in case but generally I'll only do it when I see the probe appear, gotta be quick though ^^
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Common sense is ground breaking stuff. I hope that most Terrans that don't want to play a game after a gas steal play similar to this or else that's kinda sad.
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Nice trick.
It would be more useful in destination I suppose. In HBR you can actually wall your entrance as early as the supply finished.
If you notice a probe passing by the supply you get a gas first, no sweat.
Awesome finding, though 
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I don't really agree with this strategy. Even if it's just 8 minerals, it's 1-2 seconds sooner of a tank you are missing out on if your opponent does not attempt a gas steal. I'd say this is a solid strategy if you happen to spot a probe, but otherwise, optimize optimize optimize!
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2 things:
if you know gas steal is coming, of course you do this. there's no reason to do it otherwise. assuming you're walling, you'll see it in time...
you generally want to gas on 12, not 11 (or at least for an economical build)
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My solution on hbr is just to wall? You can't miss the probe then, and you can do 11rax12gas or 12/12 if you are so enclined. This seems good if you are going to 11/11 but I don't 
Maybe I should stop doing 12/12? I don't really pay attention to the early-early game at high levels.
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You don't have to block, you can just make a supply depot that gives you vision of your entrance so you can react in time to take your geyser.
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On February 25 2010 09:56 huameng wrote:My solution on hbr is just to wall? You can't miss the probe then, and you can do 11rax12gas or 12/12 if you are so enclined. This seems good if you are going to 11/11 but I don't Maybe I should stop doing 12/12? I don't really pay attention to the early-early game at high levels.
This is pretty much my opinion, except more confident that I'd rather go 12/12.
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On February 25 2010 09:55 love1another wrote:
I don't really agree with this strategy. Even if it's just 8 minerals, it's 1-2 seconds sooner of a tank you are missing out on if your opponent does not attempt a gas steal. I'd say this is a solid strategy if you happen to spot a probe, but otherwise, optimize optimize optimize!
I can't imagine 1-2 seconds determining very many games at the D/C levels.
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On February 25 2010 09:56 Pokebunny wrote:
you generally want to gas on 12, not 11 (or at least for an economical build)
That's why you delay the rax and make it at the same time as the refinery at 250 minerals, for SUPREME economical build you want 12/12 at 250.
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On February 25 2010 09:55 love1another wrote:
I don't really agree with this strategy. Even if it's just 8 minerals, it's 1-2 seconds sooner of a tank you are missing out on if your opponent does not attempt a gas steal. I'd say this is a solid strategy if you happen to spot a probe, but otherwise, optimize optimize optimize!
Heh, I actually did try to optimize optimize optimize, but then in all that optimization, you realize that you could've fared much better over a course of 100 games if you did this build every time. Playing on the very edge is never good(unless you're playing vs a superior player and going all-in or something). This build is like 99.90% optimized, and if you go for a 100% optimized build, and you lose the gas, suddenly you're at 65% lol
This is the Nash Equilibrium of early TvP gas battle.
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how does this time out against a 7-probe gas steal? btw-
some plays 10 rax 10 gas. not standard whatsoever because gas before rax is kinda really bad vs proxy play. i would say get use to getting your gas stolen and baracks expand which puts you ahead.
except on heartbreak ridge when I 10/15 (obviously very slightly delayed cos i gas stole you) and mine out your back and run straight past your funny little bunker with 5 dragoons =).
Seriously, all protoss players, if u want free wins vs terran on heartbreak ridge:
7 send probe to gas steal them
8 pylon
10 gas steallllls!
then with constant probe production till 15 (cant remember timings exactly)
gate
assim
core
15 gate (cut probes and send this probe to back entry mineral patch of terran)
goon + goon range
pylon
from here just build dragoons, if he does some silly marine all-in you have a really good build to defend it incredibly easily, pretty much his only other option is to bunker expand, sit there sniping at bunker while probe is mining minerals, after minerals are about to be mined out send goons around (you should have 5 or so there at this point), and it seems to work out really well that it's just as the first tank is getting to his choke. keep rallied dragoons just attacking the bunker (right now he's freaking the fuck out and it will die due to no repair), and unless you have the worst dragoon micro in the world you should have no trouble winning.
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wow, never thought of this, i always just went 12/12 and prayed to the gods for a late scout or an unlucky scout
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If the protoss cheeses, then it'll screw up your build a bit, but I don't think this will block a 4-gas like what stork did v flash one hbr I thinkk.
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I think this was discussed before on a thread about gas steal alternatives. Everyone yelled at the OP in that thread to just have better reactions and to just lay down your refinery by canceling scvs or other things.
The reason was something about a late factory or something.
Ah here's a thread on the topic
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105306
DO A SEARCH PLS
edit: added some people's quotes
"I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps."
Others say that it's possible to defend against 2 gate on HBR. Try it for yourself before you get to us because the topic has been discussed ad nauseum.
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Ingenious strategy, but not recommended for Idra.
Gas steals are so popular are 2 players maps, especially since they rock against D level terrans hehee. Definitely ought to help out at least a bit.
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Good OP. I've been doing this for some time now, I saw that in a VOD once and I thought it was genius - P cant steal and T dont lose mining time (like 8 ou 16 minerals?). No more 2mins games rage quit.
Also, the same thing can be done with the wall-in. What I do is simply take my scv off the barracks, start a depot, let it have some HP(75-100 is good enough) so the scouting probe doesnt destroy it in 3hits, then remove the scv from depot and put it back on the barracks. This way you can wall faster without using more minerals / SCV, and you leave protoss in the dark.
It's a very simple and useful trick, but T has to be careful while pressing ESC
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I love being gas stolen. Either go bio rush on their ass or early cc ftw. EZ win.
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Who says you have to prevent it? FlaSh style is I dont give a f*** and I'm just going to expand without a wall. 2 SCVs is the viable number to attack a building gas. Either fast expand with a bunker or go into bionic. However, best go into bionic if the protoss is proxy gatewaying, which is unlikely they will take your gas if so. So FE all the way
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yeah i agree some iccup people play extremely cheesy
even when i play my friends one of them nearly always gas steals and manner pylon at the same time
my counter,map depending, i will either get gas before rax or 11gas and rax simultaneously
maps like hbr with a long walking distance, 11 gas is fine unless they send the probe out at around 7 ish, then they definitely intended to cheese you from the start and it may come with a free package of proxy gateways= =
currently, im asking my p buddies to train with me on the cheesiest things like 2 gate aggro and gas steal+manner pylon everything adding together and im still working on how to defend myself
also is 1 rax cc + bunker a viable counter to gas steal and/or manner pylon? because i've been doing that everytime there's a gas steal and it worked like charm. only more marines than usual and a delayed factory
a risky move involves taking a 3rd extremely early because of the min surplus + insufficient gas
i did it once with a friend and it worked nicely. our game lasted for almost 45 minutes and although I lost in the end, I still think i reacted correctly to the gas steal+manner pylon.
*edit:by early i mean sometime between nat cc and/or first factory is done
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Gas in combination with 10/15 gates = win.
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On February 25 2010 21:05 BallKicker wrote:
Gas in combination with 10/15 gates = win.
Gas-steal in combination with 10/15 = terran wins
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I've played a few PvTs on HBR where I've had my gas stolen, yes that's me as the protoss.
It actually works quite nicely as anti-cheese, since the early SCV can see if the pylon isn't in the main, and the toss tech will be slow because of slow gas or if he pulls probes to attack it immediately he'll lose minerals.
The only downside is if he has proxied, then even though you know it's coming you may not survive since sending the early SCV delays your barracks quite a lot.
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How much better econ is a 11/11 compared to a 12/12?
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On February 25 2010 10:41 Ftrunkz wrote:how does this time out against a 7-probe gas steal? btw- Show nested quote +some plays 10 rax 10 gas. not standard whatsoever because gas before rax is kinda really bad vs proxy play. i would say get use to getting your gas stolen and baracks expand which puts you ahead. except on heartbreak ridge when I 10/15 (obviously very slightly delayed cos i gas stole you) and mine out your back and run straight past your funny little bunker with 5 dragoons =). Seriously, all protoss players, if u want free wins vs terran on heartbreak ridge: 7 send probe to gas steal them 8 pylon 10 gas steallllls! then with constant probe production till 15 (cant remember timings exactly) gate assim core 15 gate (cut probes and send this probe to back entry mineral patch of terran) goon + goon range pylon from here just build dragoons, if he does some silly marine all-in you have a really good build to defend it incredibly easily, pretty much his only other option is to bunker expand, sit there sniping at bunker while probe is mining minerals, after minerals are about to be mined out send goons around (you should have 5 or so there at this point), and it seems to work out really well that it's just as the first tank is getting to his choke. keep rallied dragoons just attacking the bunker (right now he's freaking the fuck out and it will die due to no repair), and unless you have the worst dragoon micro in the world you should have no trouble winning.
mine out the back? lol, i check that with one marine and im fine. than i get two factories and produce tanks and youre way far behind.
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Not really understanding this, is the argument against this strategy that you get to behind against a goon push? As the op said this is about one round of minerals for one scv. Pretty sure it's fine.
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On February 25 2010 09:08 niteReloaded wrote:
I played some ICC today on HBR and Protosses play extremely cheesy and if nothing else, they will steal the gas. They even do that sneeky move Nony made against Idra, where they don't go near other terran buildings, so you can't possibly react in time. (this happens on 9 o'clock on HBR, while on 3 o'clock, the gas is on a silver plate)
So after getting annoyed unnecessarily, I came up with a solid solution that requires almost no sacrifice, and honestly I'm surprised noone popularized this build sooner.
I'm not one of the players that learns their BO to the letter, but as far as I know, almost all standard TvP openings have the same beginning:
9supply
11barracks 11 gas (when you have 250 minerals, you build them at the same time)
If you're a terran player, you know that:
1) there's a period of around 1-2 seconds where you're supply blocked while you're waiting for the first supply to finish
2) you have quite a few minerals in the bank before you start making the Barracks + Refinery
The alternation I made is making the Refinery at 10. The key is to NOT queue the 11th SCV until the supply finishes, you're going to need those 50minerals and the SCV isn't going to start building anyway due to the mentioned supply block. You'll see that you can make the Refinery without any problems at 10 supply. What next? Right after the Refinery starts building, you press ESC while your SCV is still selected and send it to the minerals right away. That way you don't lose the important mining time which is the usual downside of protecting the gas like this. Your supply should finish in the next few seconds, and you produce the 11th SCV normally.
When you get the next 150 minerals, build the Barracks and resume the Refinery construction. Remember not to get carried away and make the 12th SCV before the barracks coz then the build is not the same as the original 11rax11gas anymore.
RESULTS:
- gas is protected relatively early, I'm pretty sure it's safe against normal scout after 1st pylon on a map like HBR
- almost no mining time is lost, at most 1 round of mining of 1 SCV(8minerals)
Is this the next standard opening?
I wonder what TL terrans think, both newbies and experienced guys. So, your comments?
if you keep building the gas at 10, you can get your factory ~8-10 seconds faster than 11 gas, and 10-15 seconds faster than 12 gas. very nice if you want to do early 1 fac aggression.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 25 2010 12:27 Fontong wrote:
Ingenious strategy, but not recommended for Idra.
Underrated post.
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a nash equilibrium is where all players have no incentive to deviate even knowing others' actions. Since you wouldn't do this you knew toss wasn't going to gas steal, it isn't nash.
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On February 25 2010 15:16 neobowman wrote:
I love being gas stolen. Either go bio rush on their ass or early cc ftw. EZ win.
If this were true, then you could just choose to not take your gas and do the same thing. Why don't you?
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On February 26 2010 03:23 nodule wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 15:16 neobowman wrote:
I love being gas stolen. Either go bio rush on their ass or early cc ftw. EZ win. If this were true, then you could just choose to not take your gas and do the same thing. Why don't you?
Because a gas steal forces P to invest resources early on, before adding a core or a 2nd gate. It slows him down and gives you more time to expand adn get an army up, isn't this obvious?
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Good thinking niteReloaded
Too bad I am a toss player
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On February 26 2010 03:13 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 12:27 Fontong wrote:
Ingenious strategy, but not recommended for Idra. Underrated post.
Actually I disagree.
The only reason this wouldn't be recommended for Idra, is if he thinks Gas-steal is a good thing now that Flash found a cute counter to it. If he still feels better playing the standard way, I think it's reckless to NOT use this build.
I PMed him about it, and I'm looking forward to see what he has to say.
This is VERY similar to a certain other move that harms you(even tho what I described in the OP doesn't harm you almost at all) but ultimately brings you more good: the now standard scouting of your own main on maps like Desti and HBR. You lose the mining time, but if you don't do it, you'll auto lose to every in-base proxy.
This situation is a mild version of THE SAME principle.
Like I said, the only good argument is that you are actually welcoming the gas-steal. If that's the true, and taking the terran's gas hurts the protoss more, then I think we won't be seeing a single gas steal in a pro game in the future.
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On February 26 2010 03:03 OMin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 09:08 niteReloaded wrote:
I played some ICC today on HBR and Protosses play extremely cheesy and if nothing else, they will steal the gas. They even do that sneeky move Nony made against Idra, where they don't go near other terran buildings, so you can't possibly react in time. (this happens on 9 o'clock on HBR, while on 3 o'clock, the gas is on a silver plate)
So after getting annoyed unnecessarily, I came up with a solid solution that requires almost no sacrifice, and honestly I'm surprised noone popularized this build sooner.
I'm not one of the players that learns their BO to the letter, but as far as I know, almost all standard TvP openings have the same beginning:
9supply
11barracks 11 gas (when you have 250 minerals, you build them at the same time)
If you're a terran player, you know that:
1) there's a period of around 1-2 seconds where you're supply blocked while you're waiting for the first supply to finish
2) you have quite a few minerals in the bank before you start making the Barracks + Refinery
The alternation I made is making the Refinery at 10. The key is to NOT queue the 11th SCV until the supply finishes, you're going to need those 50minerals and the SCV isn't going to start building anyway due to the mentioned supply block. You'll see that you can make the Refinery without any problems at 10 supply. What next? Right after the Refinery starts building, you press ESC while your SCV is still selected and send it to the minerals right away. That way you don't lose the important mining time which is the usual downside of protecting the gas like this. Your supply should finish in the next few seconds, and you produce the 11th SCV normally.
When you get the next 150 minerals, build the Barracks and resume the Refinery construction. Remember not to get carried away and make the 12th SCV before the barracks coz then the build is not the same as the original 11rax11gas anymore.
RESULTS:
- gas is protected relatively early, I'm pretty sure it's safe against normal scout after 1st pylon on a map like HBR
- almost no mining time is lost, at most 1 round of mining of 1 SCV(8minerals)
Is this the next standard opening?
I wonder what TL terrans think, both newbies and experienced guys. So, your comments? if you keep building the gas at 10, you can get your factory ~8-10 seconds faster than 11 gas, and 10-15 seconds faster than 12 gas. very nice if you want to do early 1 fac aggression.
yes, but that requires cutting SCVs and is an entirely different topic. As a matter of fact, I have a pretty cute build based on that, might write something about it one day.
On February 26 2010 03:21 nodule wrote:
a nash equilibrium is where all players have no incentive to deviate even knowing others' actions. Since you wouldn't do this you knew toss wasn't going to gas steal, it isn't nash.
Ur ruining my illusions and spoiling my fun. :p
On February 25 2010 11:56 obesechicken13 wrote:I think this was discussed before on a thread about gas steal alternatives. Everyone yelled at the OP in that thread to just have better reactions and to just lay down your refinery by canceling scvs or other things. The reason was something about a late factory or something. Ah here's a thread on the topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105306DO A SEARCH PLSedit: added some people's quotes "I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps." Others say that it's possible to defend against 2 gate on HBR. Try it for yourself before you get to us because the topic has been discussed ad nauseum.
The factory is not delayed. If you're gonna patronize me, at least read the OP and use your own thoughts behind what you write.
On February 25 2010 23:27 Catch]22 wrote:
How much better econ is a 11/11 compared to a 12/12?
It's the other way around, 12/12 is better than 11/11 economically because you pump pure SCVs longer, but it's usually wiser to go 11/11 because of the danger of early dragoon pressure.
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United States3824 Posts
I 11 gas, do a non Idra cancel and then 12 rax and start building the Gas again. This delays my Barracks a little and you only need to do it if it looks like you are going to get gas stolen.
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As a Protoss user, the cleverest counter I've seen in HBR vs gas steal is to wall off with:
9 supply
10 barrack (not queuing the 11th SCV, so basically the 11th SCV is delayed by 1-2 seconds)
This denies the probe from entering the base altogether, even if it's a quick scout.
On February 25 2010 10:41 Ftrunkz wrote:how does this time out against a 7-probe gas steal? btw- Show nested quote +some plays 10 rax 10 gas. not standard whatsoever because gas before rax is kinda really bad vs proxy play. i would say get use to getting your gas stolen and baracks expand which puts you ahead. except on heartbreak ridge when I 10/15 (obviously very slightly delayed cos i gas stole you) and mine out your back and run straight past your funny little bunker with 5 dragoons =). Seriously, all protoss players, if u want free wins vs terran on heartbreak ridge: 7 send probe to gas steal them 8 pylon 10 gas steallllls! then with constant probe production till 15 (cant remember timings exactly) gate assim core 15 gate (cut probes and send this probe to back entry mineral patch of terran) goon + goon range pylon from here just build dragoons, if he does some silly marine all-in you have a really good build to defend it incredibly easily, pretty much his only other option is to bunker expand, sit there sniping at bunker while probe is mining minerals, after minerals are about to be mined out send goons around (you should have 5 or so there at this point), and it seems to work out really well that it's just as the first tank is getting to his choke. keep rallied dragoons just attacking the bunker (right now he's freaking the fuck out and it will die due to no repair), and unless you have the worst dragoon micro in the world you should have no trouble winning.
Haha, I know this is meant to be a joke, but it has so much truth 
But if you're going for the standard Protoss build and you just happen to take his gas and notice he is expanding without factory, then you can punish him with 2 gates. What I find to give the best result is to get goon range before the first goon since you won't be able to push his bunker defense without goon range anyways.
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Yeah, It was a typo, niteReloaded, what I'm asking is how big of a difference it actually makes. I prefer to do the 11/11 variation because In my mind it gets me my stuff just a tad bit earlier which is key to getting a good FD push, or getting out before DTs etc.. But just how much do I actually lose on this?
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On February 26 2010 06:16 Catch]22 wrote:
Yeah, It was a typo, niteReloaded, what I'm asking is how big of a difference it actually makes. I prefer to do the 11/11 variation because In my mind it gets me my stuff just a tad bit earlier which is key to getting a good FD push, or getting out before DTs etc.. But just how much do I actually lose on this?
Go do it in a game, and count the seconds where you don't build any SCVs when going 11/11. That's the only difference, 12/12 allows constant SCV production, while 11/11 delays the 12th SCV for a few seconds. A few seconds of mining time are nothing when compared to those same seconds of Dragoons banging at your wall while you wait for the tank.
That's the answer I can give, I don't have the numbers you may be looking for.
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On February 25 2010 10:41 Ftrunkz wrote:
how does this time out against a 7-probe gas steal?
Not sure if you mean 7th probe, or the 6th (when the 6th get born, the population say 7 coz one more is in production)
I tested it vs the 6th probe.
- the refinery gets taken at 1:17 and the probe arrives just around that time, slightly later, maybe a second.
So if you actually meant the 7th probe, then yes, it's safe.
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I prefer to scout early on 2 player maps and go 1 rax cc (with early refinery at the nat) if they gas rush you. Seems to set toss behind quite a bit from what I've seen. Of course this would work too. But 12/12 and getting the gas first is pretty common and its the same idea.
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This is a good trick, and I have seen Flash use it several times. He definitely got sick of toss cheese every single game he played against them xD
Edit: I'm not sure of the timing he makes the Refinery at... but just that he makes it to stop gas steal and puts the SCV back on minerals.
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your rax is later so you will be weaker to proxy gate
might already have been said /shrug
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I'm not sure how many times you get your gas stolen, but when I see a probe coming and my refinery's not being built, I cancel my 12th scv being made and go directly to refinery, works well.
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its definitely a nice trick.. i have used a few times with good results in 2 base maps before, not in the exactly way, but i think OP build its better than me.
i think its a good trick for low/mid users at least... for pros i dont know, maybe styish or something else could enlightened us
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if you gas before rax vs proxy gate its autoloss -_-
its the reason people have to allow the gas to be stolen in the first place. You have to honor the proxy gate.
This sounds interesting but i dont really see it being any better vs proxy gate
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Honestly, I figured 100% of Terrans have tried this exact same build at one point or another. To hear that is not the case is surprising. If toss proxy gates, you make a bunker -- the key is simply being aware.
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On February 26 2010 10:04 duckett wrote:
your rax is later so you will be weaker to proxy gate
might already have been said /shrug
it's not later, I wouldn't have made the thread if it had such an obvious flaw.
On February 26 2010 14:07 il0seonpurpose wrote:
I'm not sure how many times you get your gas stolen, but when I see a probe coming and my refinery's not being built, I cancel my 12th scv being made and go directly to refinery, works well.
If the protoss is good, and your gas is exposed, you don't have time to do it so this argument is invalid.
On February 26 2010 14:50 Sadist wrote:
if you gas before rax vs proxy gate its autoloss -_-
Let me ask you something, when you scout the proxy, is your normal barracks already building? if yes, it's going to be the same in this build.
If no, and you NEED to build it BUT you don't have minerals, just cancel the damned refinery and make barracks.
You people make silly arguments which makes me think rarely anyone thoroughly read the OP.
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11 rax 12 gas is a very standard tvp opening.
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I never saw any reason to actually save up to 250 minerals, I build the rax when I can afford it, and then build the refinery when I can afford it, and if you do it this way, then yes the rax IS a little bit delayed (yeah, I know I could have mined 8 more minerals if I waited another trip, but 8 is not going to win or lose me the game at my level.
Am I underestimating the lost minerals?
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On February 26 2010 19:54 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 10:04 duckett wrote:
your rax is later so you will be weaker to proxy gate
might already have been said /shrug it's not later, I wouldn't have made the thread if it had such an obvious flaw. Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 14:07 il0seonpurpose wrote:
I'm not sure how many times you get your gas stolen, but when I see a probe coming and my refinery's not being built, I cancel my 12th scv being made and go directly to refinery, works well. If the protoss is good, and your gas is exposed, you don't have time to do it so this argument is invalid. Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 14:50 Sadist wrote:
if you gas before rax vs proxy gate its autoloss -_-
Let me ask you something, when you scout the proxy, is your normal barracks already building? if yes, it's going to be the same in this build. If no, and you NEED to build it BUT you don't have minerals, just cancel the damned refinery and make barracks. You people make silly arguments which makes me think rarely anyone thoroughly read the OP.
try it vs proxy 7 gate on desti and lets see how it works
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On February 27 2010 10:21 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 19:54 niteReloaded wrote:On February 26 2010 10:04 duckett wrote:
your rax is later so you will be weaker to proxy gate
might already have been said /shrug it's not later, I wouldn't have made the thread if it had such an obvious flaw. On February 26 2010 14:07 il0seonpurpose wrote:
I'm not sure how many times you get your gas stolen, but when I see a probe coming and my refinery's not being built, I cancel my 12th scv being made and go directly to refinery, works well. If the protoss is good, and your gas is exposed, you don't have time to do it so this argument is invalid. On February 26 2010 14:50 Sadist wrote:
if you gas before rax vs proxy gate its autoloss -_-
Let me ask you something, when you scout the proxy, is your normal barracks already building? if yes, it's going to be the same in this build. If no, and you NEED to build it BUT you don't have minerals, just cancel the damned refinery and make barracks. You people make silly arguments which makes me think rarely anyone thoroughly read the OP. try it vs proxy 7 gate on desti and lets see how it works
Dont need much more than a depot+rax maze to beat horror gates...
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I though horror gates werein base, in the mineral line and from manner pylons...
7 gate in desti isnt beaten by a "maze", cause that works vs 1 zealots, once your opponent has 2 zealots vs 2-3 of your marines you cant micro up and down the crack; and he can just go for your mineral line/scvs building factory and kill them.
U will probably need a bunker or sick micro to defend, also toss gets goons pretty fast with that build (like after 3-4 zeals), so you need to get control of your main before u have zealots + goons picking stuff.
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On February 27 2010 11:31 nicoaldo wrote:
i though horror base were in the mineral line from manner pylons...
7 gate in desti isnt beaten by a "maze", cause that works vs 1 zealots, once your opponent has 2 zealots vs 2-3 of your marines you cant micro up and down the crack; and he can just go for your mineral line/scvs building factory and kill them.
Sounds like some pretty bad maze-construction right there.
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On February 26 2010 04:49 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 11:56 obesechicken13 wrote:I think this was discussed before on a thread about gas steal alternatives. Everyone yelled at the OP in that thread to just have better reactions and to just lay down your refinery by canceling scvs or other things. The reason was something about a late factory or something. Ah here's a thread on the topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105306DO A SEARCH PLSedit: added some people's quotes "I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps." Others say that it's possible to defend against 2 gate on HBR. Try it for yourself before you get to us because the topic has been discussed ad nauseum. The factory is not delayed. If you're gonna patronize me, at least read the OP and use your own thoughts behind what you write.
Oh, wow sorry, I don't know how I missed the Esc part. Sounds fine. It may delay your rax a few seconds (2/3) from your one missed trip. But otherwise sounds good compared to building both at the same time.
I thought you were one of those lower post count guys (glass house) complaining about how to counter 4 pool or something that was already discussed and probably skipped that. heh..heh... -_-
I think it's fine but I think the gas also comes way later than just getting your rax when you have 150 minerals.
Since now you have to spend 100 minerals on a refinery and then save up 150 for a barracks. I always went rax before refinery. Not both at the same time. I think it may be a better idea to just build your rax before your refinery and just to cancel a scv(if needed) to get enough minerals to build your refinery as soon as you see a probe coming. You should see the probe if you sent your 9 scv to your ramp to build a supply depot. It's certainly safer.
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I'd like to thank the original poster for bringing up this strategy. I used to use this as a standard opening, but the problem was I would always send the scv back to the refinery at random times or too late and my factory timing would be off and I would be hating life, so eventually I just got lazy and went refinery before rax without taking the scv off the refinery. But, that style does hurt your economy and this has been a good reminder of it's silly to be that lazy. I would rather take a loss than play-out a game after a gas steal, so I love this build. A+ for original poster.
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I hate large posts in a thread!
+ Show Spoiler +Some people seem to think this is going to cost you 1-2 seconds somewhere. It does not. It costs you virtually nothing. There are two ways to do it. Both ways you use the scv closest to the gas to do it. Depending on how many minerals you have compared with what point this particular scv is at [in the given mining/returning cargo cycle] one will be infintesimally better than the other. Option 1 He mines, returns the mineral, then you select him, move to gas, create gas, hit 'esc' and back to mining. Option 2 He mines, then you select him, move to gas, create gas, hit 'esc' then 'c'. You can't even say you have lost 8 minerals because this miniscule detour takes nowhere near as long as it takes an scv to mine... around 1/4 to 1/2 of the time. Also because you do not even have 1 scv per mineral the trip time must also be added to how long it takes an scv to mine.(another scv cannot be mining this mineral, or rather does not need to be) So basically at the cost of having 8 of your precious minerals delayed by a meagre fraction of how long it takes an scv to travel from cc to the mineral, start mining, turn around then return to cc and drop off cargo (around 5-7 secs) you gaurantee no gas steal. Even if the 8 minerals went up in a puff of fucking smoke you're talking about losing a fraction of a second on any of your timings, and it doesn't, so we are talking about a fraction of a fraction. Jack shit. Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 13:51 obesechicken13 wrote:On February 26 2010 04:49 niteReloaded wrote:On February 25 2010 11:56 obesechicken13 wrote:I think this was discussed before on a thread about gas steal alternatives. Everyone yelled at the OP in that thread to just have better reactions and to just lay down your refinery by canceling scvs or other things. The reason was something about a late factory or something. Ah here's a thread on the topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105306DO A SEARCH PLSedit: added some people's quotes "I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps." Others say that it's possible to defend against 2 gate on HBR. Try it for yourself before you get to us because the topic has been discussed ad nauseum. The factory is not delayed. If you're gonna patronize me, at least read the OP and use your own thoughts behind what you write. Oh, wow sorry, I don't know how I missed the Esc part. Sounds fine. It may delay your rax a few seconds (2/3) from your one missed trip. But otherwise sounds good compared to building both at the same time. I thought you were one of those lower post count guys (glass house) complaining about how to counter 4 pool or something that was already discussed and probably skipped that. heh..heh... -_- I think it's fine but I think the gas also comes way later than just getting your rax when you have 150 minerals. Since now you have to spend 100 minerals on a refinery and then save up 150 for a barracks. I always went rax before refinery. Not both at the same time. I think it may be a better idea to just build your rax before your refinery and just to cancel a scv(if needed) to get enough minerals to build your refinery as soon as you see a probe coming. You should see the probe if you sent your 9 scv to your ramp to build a supply depot. It's certainly safer. This post makes me want to smash my head off a wall. Hey there's an emoticon for this !  You even say oh wow sorry don't know how I missed the Esc part and then [i]continue to claim it will delay by two to three seconds This won't even delay it half a second. Then you say it's fine but the gas comes "way later" than just .... let me stop you there. The gas does not come way later than anything. You are talking out of your anus. You then propose that the real solution is to build rax at normal time and cancel the 12th (I'm assuming you are referring to standard play and thus this is the timing you are speaking of) scv which is fine if you see it coming which you don't always which is the whole point of this build it eliminates the need for cat-like reflexes and the chance that he might hide until the perfect moment then cruise in faster than you could react to anyway. On February 25 2010 09:24 ninazerg wrote:
I think that's an absolutely fantastic idea for anyone playing TvP on a 2-player map. Very hot. But not on a three player map? Care to explain why? Even on a four player map it's not 100% impossible to be gas rushed so why bother specifying 2 player maps as if certain conditions exist in them which make this strategy viable that are not present in larger maps? This is not the case. Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 10:21 Sadist wrote:On February 26 2010 19:54 niteReloaded wrote:On February 26 2010 10:04 duckett wrote:
your rax is later so you will be weaker to proxy gate
might already have been said /shrug it's not later, I wouldn't have made the thread if it had such an obvious flaw. On February 26 2010 14:07 il0seonpurpose wrote:
I'm not sure how many times you get your gas stolen, but when I see a probe coming and my refinery's not being built, I cancel my 12th scv being made and go directly to refinery, works well. If the protoss is good, and your gas is exposed, you don't have time to do it so this argument is invalid. On February 26 2010 14:50 Sadist wrote:
if you gas before rax vs proxy gate its autoloss -_-
Let me ask you something, when you scout the proxy, is your normal barracks already building? if yes, it's going to be the same in this build. If no, and you NEED to build it BUT you don't have minerals, just cancel the damned refinery and make barracks. You people make silly arguments which makes me think rarely anyone thoroughly read the OP. try it vs proxy 7 gate on desti and lets see how it works Seriously? You ask a question, he answers it perfectly for you but you still make this comment? In case you genuinely didn't understand, it makes no difference at all, that is the whole point of this thread; you can prevent gas steal at no cost... so it will work just as well as standard play vs 7 proxy gate on desti. On February 27 2010 01:25 Catch]22 wrote:
I never saw any reason to actually save up to 250 minerals, I build the rax when I can afford it, and then build the refinery when I can afford it, and if you do it this way, then yes the rax IS a little bit delayed (yeah, I know I could have mined 8 more minerals if I waited another trip, but 8 is not going to win or lose me the game at my level.
Am I underestimating the lost minerals? I think you mean yes the fact IS a little bit delayed, not the rax. May I answer your question with a question? Oops too late... hehe No but really... is there any point in sacrificing minerals for no reason just because you can't be bothered doing it ? That is essentially your question, and the answer is unsurprisingly no.
Side note though
On February 26 2010 03:13 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 12:27 Fontong wrote:
Ingenious strategy, but not recommended for Idra. Underrated post.
hehehehehehe
NiteReloaded did you watch Idra cancel his CC?
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best forum topic ever made in strat forum right here lol.
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lol getting your gas build doesn't hurt you, well technically. It hurts the protoss as well.
sigh always explaining this...
Game 1 OSL Finals FlaSh vs Movie
FlaSh doesn't care if his gas gets stolen, he can still transition into it.
Either switch to bionic (which I dont prefer...) or just fast expand
2-3 scvs is the reasonable amount of scvs you use to attack an assimilator
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EPT
