EPTToo bad I am a toss player
[G] Elegant prevention of Gas Steal in TvP - Page 3
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
prosatan
Romania8931 Posts
Too bad I am a toss player | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
Actually I disagree. The only reason this wouldn't be recommended for Idra, is if he thinks Gas-steal is a good thing now that Flash found a cute counter to it. If he still feels better playing the standard way, I think it's reckless to NOT use this build. I PMed him about it, and I'm looking forward to see what he has to say. This is VERY similar to a certain other move that harms you(even tho what I described in the OP doesn't harm you almost at all) but ultimately brings you more good: the now standard scouting of your own main on maps like Desti and HBR. You lose the mining time, but if you don't do it, you'll auto lose to every in-base proxy. This situation is a mild version of THE SAME principle. Like I said, the only good argument is that you are actually welcoming the gas-steal. If that's the true, and taking the terran's gas hurts the protoss more, then I think we won't be seeing a single gas steal in a pro game in the future. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On February 26 2010 03:03 OMin wrote: if you keep building the gas at 10, you can get your factory ~8-10 seconds faster than 11 gas, and 10-15 seconds faster than 12 gas. very nice if you want to do early 1 fac aggression. yes, but that requires cutting SCVs and is an entirely different topic. As a matter of fact, I have a pretty cute build based on that, might write something about it one day. On February 26 2010 03:21 nodule wrote: a nash equilibrium is where all players have no incentive to deviate even knowing others' actions. Since you wouldn't do this you knew toss wasn't going to gas steal, it isn't nash. Ur ruining my illusions and spoiling my fun. :p On February 25 2010 11:56 obesechicken13 wrote: I think this was discussed before on a thread about gas steal alternatives. Everyone yelled at the OP in that thread to just have better reactions and to just lay down your refinery by canceling scvs or other things. The reason was something about a late factory or something. Ah here's a thread on the topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105306 DO A SEARCH PLS edit: added some people's quotes "I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps." Others say that it's possible to defend against 2 gate on HBR. Try it for yourself before you get to us because the topic has been discussed ad nauseum. The factory is not delayed. If you're gonna patronize me, at least read the OP and use your own thoughts behind what you write. On February 25 2010 23:27 Catch]22 wrote: How much better econ is a 11/11 compared to a 12/12? It's the other way around, 12/12 is better than 11/11 economically because you pump pure SCVs longer, but it's usually wiser to go 11/11 because of the danger of early dragoon pressure. | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
| ||
|
Kuri
Canada88 Posts
9 supply 10 barrack (not queuing the 11th SCV, so basically the 11th SCV is delayed by 1-2 seconds) This denies the probe from entering the base altogether, even if it's a quick scout. On February 25 2010 10:41 Ftrunkz wrote: how does this time out against a 7-probe gas steal? btw- except on heartbreak ridge when I 10/15 (obviously very slightly delayed cos i gas stole you) and mine out your back and run straight past your funny little bunker with 5 dragoons =). Seriously, all protoss players, if u want free wins vs terran on heartbreak ridge: 7 send probe to gas steal them 8 pylon 10 gas steallllls! then with constant probe production till 15 (cant remember timings exactly) gate assim core 15 gate (cut probes and send this probe to back entry mineral patch of terran) goon + goon range pylon from here just build dragoons, if he does some silly marine all-in you have a really good build to defend it incredibly easily, pretty much his only other option is to bunker expand, sit there sniping at bunker while probe is mining minerals, after minerals are about to be mined out send goons around (you should have 5 or so there at this point), and it seems to work out really well that it's just as the first tank is getting to his choke. keep rallied dragoons just attacking the bunker (right now he's freaking the fuck out and it will die due to no repair), and unless you have the worst dragoon micro in the world you should have no trouble winning. Haha, I know this is meant to be a joke, but it has so much truth  But if you're going for the standard Protoss build and you just happen to take his gas and notice he is expanding without factory, then you can punish him with 2 gates. What I find to give the best result is to get goon range before the first goon since you won't be able to push his bunker defense without goon range anyways. | ||
|
Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
| ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On February 26 2010 06:16 Catch]22 wrote: Yeah, It was a typo, niteReloaded, what I'm asking is how big of a difference it actually makes. I prefer to do the 11/11 variation because In my mind it gets me my stuff just a tad bit earlier which is key to getting a good FD push, or getting out before DTs etc.. But just how much do I actually lose on this? Go do it in a game, and count the seconds where you don't build any SCVs when going 11/11. That's the only difference, 12/12 allows constant SCV production, while 11/11 delays the 12th SCV for a few seconds. A few seconds of mining time are nothing when compared to those same seconds of Dragoons banging at your wall while you wait for the tank. That's the answer I can give, I don't have the numbers you may be looking for. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On February 25 2010 10:41 Ftrunkz wrote: how does this time out against a 7-probe gas steal? Not sure if you mean 7th probe, or the 6th (when the 6th get born, the population say 7 coz one more is in production) I tested it vs the 6th probe. - the refinery gets taken at 1:17 and the probe arrives just around that time, slightly later, maybe a second. So if you actually meant the 7th probe, then yes, it's safe. | ||
|
Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
| ||
|
ToeJam
United States282 Posts
Edit: I'm not sure of the timing he makes the Refinery at... but just that he makes it to stop gas steal and puts the SCV back on minerals. | ||
|
duckett
United States589 Posts
might already have been said /shrug | ||
|
il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
| ||
|
No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
i think its a good trick for low/mid users at least... for pros i dont know, maybe styish or something else could enlightened us | ||
|
Sadist
United States7328 Posts
its the reason people have to allow the gas to be stolen in the first place. You have to honor the proxy gate. This sounds interesting but i dont really see it being any better vs proxy gate | ||
|
machinehead..
412 Posts
| ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On February 26 2010 10:04 duckett wrote: your rax is later so you will be weaker to proxy gate might already have been said /shrug it's not later, I wouldn't have made the thread if it had such an obvious flaw. On February 26 2010 14:07 il0seonpurpose wrote: I'm not sure how many times you get your gas stolen, but when I see a probe coming and my refinery's not being built, I cancel my 12th scv being made and go directly to refinery, works well. If the protoss is good, and your gas is exposed, you don't have time to do it so this argument is invalid. On February 26 2010 14:50 Sadist wrote: if you gas before rax vs proxy gate its autoloss -_- Let me ask you something, when you scout the proxy, is your normal barracks already building? if yes, it's going to be the same in this build. If no, and you NEED to build it BUT you don't have minerals, just cancel the damned refinery and make barracks. You people make silly arguments which makes me think rarely anyone thoroughly read the OP. | ||
|
Scarecrow
Korea (South)9174 Posts
| ||
|
Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
Am I underestimating the lost minerals? | ||
|
Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On February 26 2010 19:54 niteReloaded wrote: it's not later, I wouldn't have made the thread if it had such an obvious flaw. If the protoss is good, and your gas is exposed, you don't have time to do it so this argument is invalid. Let me ask you something, when you scout the proxy, is your normal barracks already building? if yes, it's going to be the same in this build. If no, and you NEED to build it BUT you don't have minerals, just cancel the damned refinery and make barracks. You people make silly arguments which makes me think rarely anyone thoroughly read the OP. try it vs proxy 7 gate on desti and lets see how it works | ||
|
Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
On February 27 2010 10:21 Sadist wrote: try it vs proxy 7 gate on desti and lets see how it works Dont need much more than a depot+rax maze to beat horror gates... | ||
| ||
