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how does this time out against a 7-probe gas steal? btw-
some plays 10 rax 10 gas. not standard whatsoever because gas before rax is kinda really bad vs proxy play. i would say get use to getting your gas stolen and baracks expand which puts you ahead.
except on heartbreak ridge when I 10/15 (obviously very slightly delayed cos i gas stole you) and mine out your back and run straight past your funny little bunker with 5 dragoons =).
Seriously, all protoss players, if u want free wins vs terran on heartbreak ridge:
7 send probe to gas steal them
8 pylon
10 gas steallllls!
then with constant probe production till 15 (cant remember timings exactly)
gate
assim
core
15 gate (cut probes and send this probe to back entry mineral patch of terran)
goon + goon range
pylon
from here just build dragoons, if he does some silly marine all-in you have a really good build to defend it incredibly easily, pretty much his only other option is to bunker expand, sit there sniping at bunker while probe is mining minerals, after minerals are about to be mined out send goons around (you should have 5 or so there at this point), and it seems to work out really well that it's just as the first tank is getting to his choke. keep rallied dragoons just attacking the bunker (right now he's freaking the fuck out and it will die due to no repair), and unless you have the worst dragoon micro in the world you should have no trouble winning.
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wow, never thought of this, i always just went 12/12 and prayed to the gods for a late scout or an unlucky scout
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If the protoss cheeses, then it'll screw up your build a bit, but I don't think this will block a 4-gas like what stork did v flash one hbr I thinkk.
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I think this was discussed before on a thread about gas steal alternatives. Everyone yelled at the OP in that thread to just have better reactions and to just lay down your refinery by canceling scvs or other things.
The reason was something about a late factory or something.
Ah here's a thread on the topic
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105306
DO A SEARCH PLS
edit: added some people's quotes
"I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps."
Others say that it's possible to defend against 2 gate on HBR. Try it for yourself before you get to us because the topic has been discussed ad nauseum.
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Ingenious strategy, but not recommended for Idra.
Gas steals are so popular are 2 players maps, especially since they rock against D level terrans hehee. Definitely ought to help out at least a bit.
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Good OP. I've been doing this for some time now, I saw that in a VOD once and I thought it was genius - P cant steal and T dont lose mining time (like 8 ou 16 minerals?). No more 2mins games rage quit.
Also, the same thing can be done with the wall-in. What I do is simply take my scv off the barracks, start a depot, let it have some HP(75-100 is good enough) so the scouting probe doesnt destroy it in 3hits, then remove the scv from depot and put it back on the barracks. This way you can wall faster without using more minerals / SCV, and you leave protoss in the dark.
It's a very simple and useful trick, but T has to be careful while pressing ESC 
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I love being gas stolen. Either go bio rush on their ass or early cc ftw. EZ win.
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Who says you have to prevent it? FlaSh style is I dont give a f*** and I'm just going to expand without a wall. 2 SCVs is the viable number to attack a building gas. Either fast expand with a bunker or go into bionic. However, best go into bionic if the protoss is proxy gatewaying, which is unlikely they will take your gas if so. So FE all the way
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yeah i agree some iccup people play extremely cheesy
even when i play my friends one of them nearly always gas steals and manner pylon at the same time
my counter,map depending, i will either get gas before rax or 11gas and rax simultaneously
maps like hbr with a long walking distance, 11 gas is fine unless they send the probe out at around 7 ish, then they definitely intended to cheese you from the start and it may come with a free package of proxy gateways= =
currently, im asking my p buddies to train with me on the cheesiest things like 2 gate aggro and gas steal+manner pylon everything adding together and im still working on how to defend myself
also is 1 rax cc + bunker a viable counter to gas steal and/or manner pylon? because i've been doing that everytime there's a gas steal and it worked like charm. only more marines than usual and a delayed factory
a risky move involves taking a 3rd extremely early because of the min surplus + insufficient gas
i did it once with a friend and it worked nicely. our game lasted for almost 45 minutes and although I lost in the end, I still think i reacted correctly to the gas steal+manner pylon.
*edit:by early i mean sometime between nat cc and/or first factory is done
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Gas in combination with 10/15 gates = win.
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On February 25 2010 21:05 BallKicker wrote:
Gas in combination with 10/15 gates = win.
Gas-steal in combination with 10/15 = terran wins
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I've played a few PvTs on HBR where I've had my gas stolen, yes that's me as the protoss.
It actually works quite nicely as anti-cheese, since the early SCV can see if the pylon isn't in the main, and the toss tech will be slow because of slow gas or if he pulls probes to attack it immediately he'll lose minerals.
The only downside is if he has proxied, then even though you know it's coming you may not survive since sending the early SCV delays your barracks quite a lot.
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How much better econ is a 11/11 compared to a 12/12?
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On February 25 2010 10:41 Ftrunkz wrote:how does this time out against a 7-probe gas steal? btw- Show nested quote +some plays 10 rax 10 gas. not standard whatsoever because gas before rax is kinda really bad vs proxy play. i would say get use to getting your gas stolen and baracks expand which puts you ahead. except on heartbreak ridge when I 10/15 (obviously very slightly delayed cos i gas stole you) and mine out your back and run straight past your funny little bunker with 5 dragoons =). Seriously, all protoss players, if u want free wins vs terran on heartbreak ridge: 7 send probe to gas steal them 8 pylon 10 gas steallllls! then with constant probe production till 15 (cant remember timings exactly) gate assim core 15 gate (cut probes and send this probe to back entry mineral patch of terran) goon + goon range pylon from here just build dragoons, if he does some silly marine all-in you have a really good build to defend it incredibly easily, pretty much his only other option is to bunker expand, sit there sniping at bunker while probe is mining minerals, after minerals are about to be mined out send goons around (you should have 5 or so there at this point), and it seems to work out really well that it's just as the first tank is getting to his choke. keep rallied dragoons just attacking the bunker (right now he's freaking the fuck out and it will die due to no repair), and unless you have the worst dragoon micro in the world you should have no trouble winning.
mine out the back? lol, i check that with one marine and im fine. than i get two factories and produce tanks and youre way far behind.
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Not really understanding this, is the argument against this strategy that you get to behind against a goon push? As the op said this is about one round of minerals for one scv. Pretty sure it's fine.
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On February 25 2010 09:08 niteReloaded wrote:
I played some ICC today on HBR and Protosses play extremely cheesy and if nothing else, they will steal the gas. They even do that sneeky move Nony made against Idra, where they don't go near other terran buildings, so you can't possibly react in time. (this happens on 9 o'clock on HBR, while on 3 o'clock, the gas is on a silver plate)
So after getting annoyed unnecessarily, I came up with a solid solution that requires almost no sacrifice, and honestly I'm surprised noone popularized this build sooner.
I'm not one of the players that learns their BO to the letter, but as far as I know, almost all standard TvP openings have the same beginning:
9supply
11barracks 11 gas (when you have 250 minerals, you build them at the same time)
If you're a terran player, you know that:
1) there's a period of around 1-2 seconds where you're supply blocked while you're waiting for the first supply to finish
2) you have quite a few minerals in the bank before you start making the Barracks + Refinery
The alternation I made is making the Refinery at 10. The key is to NOT queue the 11th SCV until the supply finishes, you're going to need those 50minerals and the SCV isn't going to start building anyway due to the mentioned supply block. You'll see that you can make the Refinery without any problems at 10 supply. What next? Right after the Refinery starts building, you press ESC while your SCV is still selected and send it to the minerals right away. That way you don't lose the important mining time which is the usual downside of protecting the gas like this. Your supply should finish in the next few seconds, and you produce the 11th SCV normally.
When you get the next 150 minerals, build the Barracks and resume the Refinery construction. Remember not to get carried away and make the 12th SCV before the barracks coz then the build is not the same as the original 11rax11gas anymore.
RESULTS:
- gas is protected relatively early, I'm pretty sure it's safe against normal scout after 1st pylon on a map like HBR
- almost no mining time is lost, at most 1 round of mining of 1 SCV(8minerals)
Is this the next standard opening?
I wonder what TL terrans think, both newbies and experienced guys. So, your comments?
if you keep building the gas at 10, you can get your factory ~8-10 seconds faster than 11 gas, and 10-15 seconds faster than 12 gas. very nice if you want to do early 1 fac aggression.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 25 2010 12:27 Fontong wrote:
Ingenious strategy, but not recommended for Idra.
Underrated post.
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a nash equilibrium is where all players have no incentive to deviate even knowing others' actions. Since you wouldn't do this you knew toss wasn't going to gas steal, it isn't nash.
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On February 25 2010 15:16 neobowman wrote:
I love being gas stolen. Either go bio rush on their ass or early cc ftw. EZ win.
If this were true, then you could just choose to not take your gas and do the same thing. Why don't you?
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On February 26 2010 03:23 nodule wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 15:16 neobowman wrote:
I love being gas stolen. Either go bio rush on their ass or early cc ftw. EZ win. If this were true, then you could just choose to not take your gas and do the same thing. Why don't you?
Because a gas steal forces P to invest resources early on, before adding a core or a 2nd gate. It slows him down and gives you more time to expand adn get an army up, isn't this obvious?
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EPT
