| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
I've been browsing through most topics and quite a few are already answered so stick in questions you'd like answered (first zvt, tvt, zvz person to post i will kill... painfully!) and i'll do a write up for it. I'd prefer more specific style questions rather then general thanks. IE Good Question to ask LOL; Why do my probes die 1v1 vs ultras. Bad Questions to ask LOL; How do i play protoss? All answers are gauranteed to be answered within 1/10 of a teamliquidian week! | ||
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ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
Good question? ~_~ Thanks   | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
What "trump card" strategies do you head to (past saying "gg") when you're pinned down as Toss (essentially how do you come back from a disadvantage of resources and macro)? | ||
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amat
United States1788 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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Schwarzenegger 08
343 Posts
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
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Schwarzenegger 08
343 Posts
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Mydnyte
3306 Posts
On February 17 2004 09:26 Commander[SB] wrote: LOL: Does my penis size determain my skill at BW? rofl  | ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On February 17 2004 09:26 Commander[SB] wrote: LOL: Does my penis size determain my skill at BW? Are black people the best StarCraft players? | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
On February 17 2004 09:26 Commander[SB] wrote: LOL: Does my penis size determain my skill at BW? No, it is the size of your left foot. | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
On February 18 2004 21:23 Klogon wrote: Are black people the best StarCraft players? No, only green people are superior in BW...  | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On February 16 2004 18:59 ApollyoN wrote: LOL; Please explain the basis of the 10 gate/12 gas/ core later build vs Zerg, both the sair and templar techs, such as what to look for in terms of zerg reactions to the build and how to counter those reaction, like describing how you would decide whether to add more gates and put on the pressure as opposed to taking your natural expo or teching up a different tree. Good question? ~_~ Thanks Ouch! thats a fairly general question involving a lot of thinking for all of the tech strategies for toss T_T I might hide from this until next time unless you can make an aspect on that you want me to focus on. | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On February 16 2004 19:46 naventus wrote: LOL: Could you give some pointers to what a Toss should be doing if their opening, whether conservative or aggressive, failed and they are now contained within their base against Terran? I.e. I screwed up my Goon/obs opening and when I busted out of the contain, it basically cost most of my units; Terran can now take natural and soon min only without pressure and overrun me. What "trump card" strategies do you head to (past saying "gg") when you're pinned down as Toss (essentially how do you come back from a disadvantage of resources and macro)? LOL #1 This situation (like most in starcraft) depends greatly on what the opponent has outside your base as well as what buildings he has in his base. I'm presuming it is really early and they haven't expanded yet. Since you dont have the production base to bust out vs terrans superior static defence. The most obvious solution is to regain mobility, since you cant move out of your base you need shuttle/s. On top of that you need to know exactly what his doing in his base so always stick an observer there so you can counter more effectively (if only 1 addon get more goons, if 3 addons get more zeals etc). Generally theres 3 things you must do. The first problem and usually most serious, is that your going to be running low on minerals soon. (Generally speaking) The options available to you are. If they have gone 2/3 fact rush without expansion you can just expand straight to the island to live off that for a while. If they have 2 facts and or are adding on a starport to counter this the best option might be to just drop off at another main base build a pylon 2 gates, ferry some men across and expand there. This works as they are running off 1 base so can't increase their attacking ability greatly. So if they break off their attack from containment to deal with your new expansion you should have enough to break out. If they dont you will be able to produce enough to stop whatever they build from their main. The main reason it works so well (thinking LT here of course) is because ramps are so damn good for defense, add a shuttle with zealots and goons shooting from highground they are going to need a much superior force to take it on. (a force which they will not have without leaving an opening for you to exploit) Second problem is you need to slow them down in some way, Reaver drops are great, storm drops are great, dt harass is great, anything that can be hell annoying and make him worry about turtling up more then pressuring you. If he has turrents around and you went reaver just run away and attack some supply depos, or if he has 1/2 tanks under the turrents look to see if you can drop them inbetween them without dying and take out 2 free tanks as well as scvs etc etc) if you went templars just stick them on the cliff and stop him mining (if you do templar option make sure you have a dt scouting other spots as his winning his just going to try and macro to victory, his main is running out if you suddenly stop his other income his going to be worried and less intent on finishing you off. OR on he might get frustrated and attack your main/exp (if you took the land option) and lose heaps to your better defence thus giving you the advantage) If their containment all happened at a later stage in the game (ie after their first expansion) OR you were being rather aggressive early on this aspect is much more important. (and much more fun for gay players like me!) Third problem is you will eventually need to break out of your choke and put containment on him. With this in mind once your new income is starting to take effect, add some more gateways and mass speed zeals with goons and temps. Find out exactly what he has at your choke and build to counter accordingly. Once you've massed enough, look at how you can attack it best, as the defence is mostly aimed at keeping you out of the middle ? so can you drop men down in a valley? run them around? attack from multiple directions is always best. Are some tanks just below the cliff that you can goon and storm from while your zeals run in from below? This situation is greatly improved by how well you managed to harass him in return. If his changed his rally points from your choke back to his base and is using men on base defence vs a very few harrassing units it greatly increases the liklihood that you can break out. Of course theres a number of other options you could take, for example if you had the standard 2 gates ob opening and put on another 2 in expectation of your increased income from a new exp which was cancelled/destroyed etc. You could just opt to mass speed zeals/goons and ferry (preferrably with 2 shuttles) down to the low ground in preperation to attack their base or hold off until they have spent unit money on a new expansion (or you could attack their containment from thereverse side but usually they have most of their men there so if it fails your dead (thats why its key to know what they have and where they have it) If you take the island option its best to not suicide your shuttle (ie dropping in between 2 tanks under a turrent to get scv/tank kills) unless your certain you can get another one to protect your island in time from their dropship. Also if your storm drop/reaver drop whatever did a lot of scv damage you can always do a giyom and stick up some stargates for carriers (preferrable if you take the other island to do this as you will no longer have the land power to do anything mildly aggresive) If you've slowed them down some but you still dont have enough to break out or you think its too risky, theres always the option of the other island! Then just be creative and stick some probes around the map and do hidden gateways somewhere so when your main attack comes you can have a sizeable force from both sides. Also with hidden gates its very easy to do harass on other expansions around the map with dragoons to take out mines, zeals to take out turrents, dts do annoy, storm to kill, archons to pillage, probes to laugh gleefully at the carnage! The world is your oyster young fisherman, go harvest your wealth! Hmmm hope this is understandable, and it helps some, dont know how well i did this up, should i proof read it? hmmm wow.. look at those pretty flowers! time to stop this and go write some poetry or something! | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
Edit: Just read it more thouroughly, fucking incredible! | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On February 17 2004 06:34 Schwarzenegger 08 wrote: LOL; how often do you use storm in PvT? Depends on the mood i'm in, often i'm just plodding along having a merry old time and realize i'm starting to lose so i go into gaybo mode and throw in some templar drops to slow him down. Other times if i find i have lots of gas then i add a few in to the army, or if i've managed to get in a containment then storm is great as when they come out of their base theres going to be so many nicely grouped units begging to be stormed into oblivion! On February 17 2004 09:26 Commander[SB] wrote: LOL: Does my penis size determain my skill at BW? Yes. Why do you think asians are so damn good at this game. (shit i just realized i made fun of myself and every good player!) | ||
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Schwarzenegger 08
343 Posts
On February 18 2004 21:23 Klogon wrote: Are black people the best StarCraft players? they are the worst and koreans are the best, so it's inversely related ~_~ | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
We want RWAs from more players who know what they're talking about. I think the best options would be you, with your undoubtedly fantastic australian accent, and Giyom. If you could A) Make an RWA or two and B) Somehow get in touch with / convince Giyom to do the same.. Well everyone would be good and happy! | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
The knowledge that ground PvZ is more of a I-might-as-well-say-gg-when-I-build-first-probe is widespread. I've never beated a zerg unless he is below my level or I got extremely lucky. My questions is: Do you take a risk and defend against one possible strategy (i.e assume he will go lurkers and plan accordingly, completely disregarding the aspect of mutalisks etc.) or is there a way to play conservatively and not get owned by zerg's 7:2 base ratio? (which will happen if you plan against everything and never actually strike against the zerg) There is just so many things that zerg can do after owning your rush -mutas -lurks -2/3hatch hydra -slow lurk drop -mass drop -hydraling -mutaling -lurkling -1base muta -1base lurker -3hatch ling -.... -.... Oh god, just listing them makes numerous losses flash before my eyes... Help me LOL! (oh yeah, is it true that you know oG)Fury_au?) | ||
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ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
On February 19 2004 05:37 Legionnaire wrote: Ouch! thats a fairly general question involving a lot of thinking for all of the tech strategies for toss T_T I might hide from this until next time unless you can make an aspect on that you want me to focus on. kk in that case I would like a focus on the templar tech aspect and how to use that most effectively. | ||
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
On February 19 2004 14:21 JeeJee wrote: LOL: The knowledge that ground PvZ is more of a I-might-as-well-say-gg-when-I-build-first-probe is widespread. I've never beated a zerg unless he is below my level or I got extremely lucky. My questions is: Do you take a risk and defend against one possible strategy (i.e assume he will go lurkers and plan accordingly, completely disregarding the aspect of mutalisks etc.) or is there a way to play conservatively and not get owned by zerg's 7:2 base ratio? (which will happen if you plan against everything and never actually strike against the zerg) There is just so many things that zerg can do after owning your rush -mutas -lurks -2/3hatch hydra -slow lurk drop -mass drop -hydraling -mutaling -lurkling -1base muta -1base lurker -3hatch ling -.... -.... Oh god, just listing them makes numerous losses flash before my eyes... Help me LOL! (oh yeah, is it true that you know oG)Fury_au?) If you really think pvz is that unbalanced your too much of a newb for LOL (Or anyone else for that matter) to help you. Its unbalanced, not impossible. And its even far less unbalanced when playing the average WGT zerg, because most average zergs have no clue how to exploit the zvp inbalance, or simply aren't good enough to make the balance seem unfair. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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Brown
Afghanistan367 Posts
On February 20 2004 08:12 -_- wrote: My eyes burn from "unbalanced", everyone says that! It's imbalanced! Your mom is unbalanced when I'm holding a leg up so I can get better access. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
On February 20 2004 08:20 Brown wrote: Your mom is unbalanced when I'm holding a leg up so I can get better access. show some respect -_- | ||
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JudasT
Spain2226 Posts
On February 20 2004 08:20 Brown wrote: Your mom is unbalanced when I'm holding a leg up so I can get better access. WOW Do you hate him ?? LMAO | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On February 19 2004 19:30 Commander[SB] wrote If you really think pvz is that unbalanced your too much of a newb for LOL (Or anyone else for that matter) to help you. Its unbalanced, not impossible. And its even far less unbalanced when playing the average WGT zerg, because most average zergs have no clue how to exploit the zvp inbalance, or simply aren't good enough to make the balance seem unfair. Obviously your feeble brain is yet to realize that it was a mere exaggeration and that the real question was Do you take a risk and defend against one possible strategy (i.e assume he will go lurkers and plan accordingly, completely disregarding the aspect of mutalisks etc.) or is there a way to play conservatively? I challenge your statement that most zergs on WGT do not exploit it. They do exploit it otherwise they wouldn't kill me. Perhaps moving past the c6 mark could help you realize that. And I was not aware that there existed a level of newbishness that could not be helped. A person who has never played SC could still be helped, wouldn't you agree?  | ||
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Highlander
4 Posts
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On February 19 2004 12:55 FakeSteve)307 wrote: Peter This has nothing to do with strategy but you will see it if i post it here: We want RWAs from more players who know what they're talking about. I think the best options would be you, with your undoubtedly fantastic australian accent, and Giyom. If you could A) Make an RWA or two and B) Somehow get in touch with / convince Giyom to do the same.. Well everyone would be good and happy! if i move and i can speak into a microphone without anyone around (so i dont feel like a retard) then i might try to do some. and i'll tell elky to bash up giyom and make him do some rwa's | ||
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 20 2004 23:27 Legionnaire wrote: if i move and i can speak into a microphone without anyone around (so i dont feel like a retard) then i might try to do some. and i'll tell elky to bash up giyom and make him do some rwa's A) You just went up like 12 points on the Awesome scale B) if you want to play some fuck-around games, ken is having some 3v3 or 4v4 or racewars or something after tourney.. channel FNT on europe | ||
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
On February 20 2004 13:08 JeeJee wrote: I challenge your statement that most zergs on WGT do not exploit it. They do exploit it otherwise they wouldn't kill me. Perhaps moving past the c6 mark could help you realize that. And I was not aware that there existed a level of newbishness that could not be helped. A person who has never played SC could still be helped, wouldn't you agree? They kill you because you suck, not because they know how to exploit zvp on land maps (mostly temple). Not many C level zergs know how to exploit a lurker contain with scourges. Not many know how to make sudden tech switches in safe situations. Not many know how to take islands while teching to hive to have fast crack/ultra without having to use much ground control. Not many can just mass expand and keep the expoes up while both lurker containing, dropping, and keeping the toss on his toes. And yes, a person can be 'too newbie' for written advice to be of any help, perhaps your not good enough to realize this. Go look at some of the 'need help' posts on wgtour and try to answer them. You'll often come across questions such as "How should I micro zerglings?" or "How should I play zerg?" - Those people are far too newbie to help =/ | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
They kill you because you suck, not because they know how to exploit zvp on land maps (mostly temple). Not many C level zergs know how to exploit a lurker contain with scourges. Not many know how to make sudden tech switches in safe situations. Not many know how to take islands while teching to hive to have fast crack/ultra without having to use much ground control. Not many can just mass expand and keep the expoes up while both lurker containing, dropping, and keeping the toss on his toes. And yes, a person can be 'too newbie' for written advice to be of any help, perhaps your not good enough to realize this. Go look at some of the 'need help' posts on wgtour and try to answer them. You'll often come across questions such as "How should I micro zerglings?" or "How should I play zerg?" - Those people are far too newbie to help =/ They kill me because they exploit the zerg's strength. Just because they're c6 doesn't make them newbs. They might just be starting out. Example: I've been owned by cambio[shlt] who later went 10-0 and stopped playing. I agree going 10-0 is nothing because I went 16-1 myself. Relatively I suck of course when compared to the Greats On about c2 level, after I went 16-1 vs the noobie terrans and tosses they got on WGT, zergs did EXACTLY that to me. Contain with lurk/ol/scourge is quite popular. Opening with a mutaling and switching into a lurk drop to own your probes at both your bases (or vice versa) isn't rare either. Sunk/lurk abuse while taking both islands and pumping mass ultra/lings is so popular, I've been owned by it this week. Your last sentence applies to cambio[shlt] who did exactly that. He had the map in under 17 minutes and there was nothing that I could do about that because he switched techs and I had to turtle even more Plus, nobody on WGT posts "how should I play <race>". They mostly ask about build orders or some micro tips in certain situations. Moreover, everyone is a newb at some point and unless they ask questions and put in some hardcore practice, they won't get better very fast. | ||
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
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radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
Leg, make another one >.< | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
The Legions had Legates, not lords! | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
The world is called Legion, and i am its lord. | ||
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amat
United States1788 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
2) gaema gowon perfect balance pvz k O_o | ||
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Eclips[e]
Canada3 Posts
, and which of these strategies should be used to react to each specific general protoss build. | ||
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SF)Refreshe
United States3 Posts
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HorsementalitY
United States1159 Posts
On February 18 2004 21:23 Klogon wrote: Are black people the best StarCraft players? Nope they are not...take hovz for example!! like Kelso would say BURNNNNNNNN~~~ offcourse not all black ppl are hung, example: Mr hovz, so we'll have to blame his newbieness on somethin else. Makes u wonder just how small Nada's peepee must be. | ||
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SF)Refreshe
United States3 Posts
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HorsementalitY
United States1159 Posts
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SF)Refreshe
United States3 Posts
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HorsementalitY
United States1159 Posts
no offense but ar eu really american? were u born here? i kow theres a sterotype of americans not being smart but we know how to punctuate at least. | ||
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DevAzTaYtA
Oman2005 Posts
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
-_-; | ||
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RushTHElarvA
449 Posts
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Kacas
Brazil3143 Posts
On February 24 2004 11:23 HorsementalitY wrote: Leg : since ur in Korea and u've seen most progamers, which ones would u say are capable of physically beatin the shit out of anyone if it came down to it. i know nada's tiny in stature so hes automatically out. who are the tallest and huge and shit. Any of them look like they pump iron??? ilovoov? | ||
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Jim
Sweden1965 Posts
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DJEtterStyle
United States2766 Posts
On February 22 2004 11:44 FrozenArbiter wrote: 1) PvZ LT is just barely imbalanced.. Nothing serious at all really.. -_- 2) gaema gowon perfect balance pvz k O_o That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. | ||
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
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WickeD
Slovakia789 Posts
I have trouble in TvP (me T) with this situation: I go a usual build involving 2 fact vulture rush, or a straightforward push, or a 2 tank drop which is ok except aI blow it. Toss takes minimal damage to units and economy and I lost most of my attack force (vultures, my push, dropship). This is a very shitty situation, I am contained I barley get my natural but I can't breakout and he is taking the map... What can I do? | ||
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Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
Im pretty nervous when i play this matchup and does things just to make sure. One of the dumbest things was, making observers because i thought he was doing lurks, which of course wasn't that useful against Mutalisk harrass. I don't like building Corsair, i think it's a waste of gas. So i tend to scout with a probe which dies quickly by Lings or his chock sunkens. My question/s is, what do you when you're not positive what the zerg is doing? Do you have some personal tricks, things you look after when you scout. Or conclusions you'll take when you see his early build. If you teched Templars, and you see zerg coming with 5 lurkers and some hydra/lings. You have about two templars with storm and only Zealots, of course also a cannon overlooking your ramp. How do you go from there? I have difficultys getting out of early contain. | ||
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Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
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Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
I can post a replay if you want^^ | ||
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
On February 25 2004 01:50 WickeD wrote: LOL I need ur advice! I have trouble in TvP (me T) with this situation: I go a usual build involving 2 fact vulture rush, or a straightforward push, or a 2 tank drop which is ok except aI blow it. Toss takes minimal damage to units and economy and I lost most of my attack force (vultures, my push, dropship). This is a very shitty situation, I am contained I barley get my natural but I can't breakout and he is taking the map... What can I do? I think I can answer that. If you go 2 fact vult rush, or 1 fact starport build, you HAVE to cause more damage to the toss then the losses you take, otherwise it will slow you down to much to win in the long run. this isn't always the case, but if the toss is a good enough player he will just outplay you if your initial harass fails. A good thing to do if you suck at harass is just go 2 fact tank build, take nat asap, and make only tanks for the first 10~ mins of the game, and just push out asap while taking your min only nat and taking center. On temple basically its usually who takes the center wins. If the terran takes the center he will usually win because he can take the other 2 gases, but if the toss denies terran of taking center he will usually win because he can just outplay the terran. It can go much more in depth, depending on how good you and your opponent are, but thats a pretty conventional tvp game. | ||
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Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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z7-TranCe
Canada3158 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
i guess if the guy is goin insane w/ lings ill just quickly switch to reaver, exp then grab corsair and play it island style.... eh | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
You should stop posting newbs questions | ||
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rEliaX
Sweden78 Posts
PvZ: What on earth am I supposed to do if I (to late), realize the zerg has two islands all deffend with 5-6 sunkens and 2-3 spores, and hes going for adrelings/ultras. I loose to it so many times T_T PvT:I could use any tips about what im supposed to do when a terran fast expos | ||
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Adamthegreat
Sweden1179 Posts
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
On February 26 2004 11:35 FreeZEternal wrote: stupid comments? wtf? You should stop posting newbs questions Seems like even you have problems answering them. | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On February 24 2004 12:19 ret wrote: what is the best way to micro your units in PvZ , Goon / Zeal / Temp / obs Vs a Lurker / Scourge contain or a Sunken Lurker Spore colony defense? -_-; LOL #2 (okay i've been really busy working on things at the moment so i've picked a nice easy one for you all(*cough* for me), to tide me over until the easy times come again and i can waste many hours talking about the wonders of the sexy overlord underbelly!) - I've done up some of it (i just cut and pasted the header into this), and i'll finish it off tommorrow after the finals match. Its sort of similar to the last one, just talkign about the different styles you can do it etc etc. Of course before then, if you have any questions within this topic just ask before tommorrow and i'll cover that as well. (i'll just edit this post for my final one) cheers | ||
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Vietnam_Oi
Vietnam120 Posts
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Commander{+}
United States2878 Posts
Macro/micro has little to do with being a good player, but it surely helps! | ||
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Schwarzenegger 08
343 Posts
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On February 27 2004 18:05 Schwarzenegger 08 wrote: leg is the only player whose style i can pick out of a group of other players you havent seen many replays | ||
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Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
1) How do you counter 1 base zerg? Like if I scout a 1 base what should I do? I've seen 1 base terrans, I've seen drops, they both work but they both fail when I try them :o. 2) How do you beat a zerg who masses mutas, then goes hive tech guards? (masses mutas being like 30 mutas) I just got owned by some WGT zerg who went 1 base, then expoed and went mass mutas. kinda sucks to lose to someone like that, but meh :o | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
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x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
On February 28 2004 19:08 Sliggy wrote: LOL; i have 2 questions for TvZ. 1) How do you counter 1 base zerg? Like if I scout a 1 base what should I do? I've seen 1 base terrans, I've seen drops, they both work but they both fail when I try them :o. 2) How do you beat a zerg who masses mutas, then goes hive tech guards? (masses mutas being like 30 mutas) I just got owned by some WGT zerg who went 1 base, then expoed and went mass mutas. kinda sucks to lose to someone like that, but meh :o Legionnaire might not answer this, but I'll try and help: 1) When Zerg goes 1 Base you must ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS assume that he is going to make 3 Lurkers and a crap load of Zerglings VERY fast. First off, if you went anything other than 2 Rax against a player who has any clue what he's doing you are dead, so just leave. If you have gone 2 Rax (who doesn't?) then it's a matter of style. The two strategies you mentioned are really the only two options, if you can't do them you're screwed. If you wanna go drops go 2 Rax, Fact, Acad, Port, Control Tower and get a dropship. Make sure you get a Bunker around the time your Acadamy finishes, because your Medics will come out about when his Lurkers arrive (remember to research Stim). Remember to keep your Marines back so they don't get owned by Lurkers, their purpose is to kill Zerglings that attack your Bunker, the Bunker is for Lurkers. Also, remember to build a Turret so if he tries to get too far up your Bunker can kill the Lurker without wasting a scan. When your Dropship is done you SHOULD have enough Marines and Medics to defend any attack he attempts without the 7 Marines/1 Medic that you'll load into the Dropship. By the time your Dropships gets to his base he'll either be expanding or trying to expand, and you can give him a really hard time because it will be hard for him to defend. Remember to keep Macroing and Microing or else this strategy simply won't work. One base Terran is pretty much the same, except that you skip the Dropship. Since you are going Two Rax (again, if you aren't leave the game) get a Factory, Engineering Bay, and an Academy in whatever order (since you aren't getting Dropship you can get Academy first if you want). For this strategy though since you don't aren't trying to get Dropships early make a Tank and Seigemode. Remember to build a Turret for the reasons above. If he attacks use the defense methods above, it should be even easier though because you will have a tank soon. Once you have 1 or two tanks you need to start getting a Science Vessel. Also somewhere in here YOU NEED TO GET +1 ATTACK MARINES!!! Wether or not you want 1/1 is your choice, but you NEED +1 attack at least. Once you have your Science Vessel and you should either start building an expansion Command Center or have one building. You should be able to break out with Two control groups of Marines/a few Medics/2-3 Tanks/1 Science Vessel. Gas is critical here, so skimp on Medics as much as you can, this of course means you can't carelessly loose Marines, I would try to use only 3 and maybe four, any more than that and you are wasting gas. Once you break that containment camp in your base a bit longer so you can set up/protect you expansion, also, you should be able to send SCVs out to scout now for any expansions other than his natural. Some general tips, make sure you get your third rax at some point in both of these builds for more Marines. Also, keep up scouting the whole time to see if he tries to go for Hive or something. If he goes Mutas at any point he loses if you scout it, because he won't have enough Lurkers when you break out, but if you're caught off gaurd your dead because he will thin your SCV count by a decent amount. EDIT: One other thing, if you went 1 rax vs One base Zerg and don't want to leave not all hope is lost, I guess. The key is taking advantage of your faster gas and getting Firebats/Tanks quicker. I still think that its best to leave and save yourself the time because it's nearly impossible to have enough Marines to defend unless you are really good. Also remember that there is some info in for each strategy that needs to be used in the other. MORE CRAP TO ADD IN CASE ANYONE READS THIS: FroZ helped someone with this in another topic and he says its possible to defend 1 Base Zerg with 1 rax/1fact. I suck so I can't, but maybe if your Marine control is good you can. Also, keep one Marine Patrolling the edge of your base at all times for drops, if one comes pull bag as few Marines as possible to kill it and don't screw up you micro. Remember that any Lurkers dropped are Lurkers he can't attack your front with. 2) I suck vs this, the key thing is to make sure you scout this so you can start getting cloacked Wraiths (2-3 is usually good). No matter what you do though this is still very hard to beat. Since he will have no ground strength you can patrol around the map with Marines for expansions while keeping enough Anti-Muta defense in your main. I suck vs Gaurd rushes though (as many in this forum know) so really you should try what you think works, although these tips can help. I hope all of that helped ^^. | ||
ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
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YoMeR
United States263 Posts
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x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
On February 29 2004 10:27 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: cant you just build 3-4 valks and back them up with some rines vs the mass muta? They work well too, I forgot about them. I just suck vs Gaurd rushes period so I didn't put much into that part. | ||
Liquid`RaSZi
Netherlands2766 Posts
On February 18 2004 18:04 Schwarzenegger 08 wrote: LOL; Reaver/shuttle upgrades in PvP LT? you can die you cocksucking faggot.. neither one of your questions will ever be useful, except for the best ways to kill yourself. | ||
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Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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MineralS[oO]
Canada1 Post
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hellkind26
1 Post
I've played many protoss vs zerg in WGTour. I have 2 strategies i use for zerg. 1. I make 1 gate, gas, then zealot, pylon, cyber, stargate, forge, upgrade +1, then zealot speed upgrade. While my corsair is killing 1~3 overlords, I make only zealot until i get mass zealot with speed/+1 upgraded, then rush him, unless he has mass sunkens. Sometimes, i fail to finihs his base, because of mutals/or zerglings with hydras. What should i do next?? 2. I like to rush with early fast zealot, 9/10 gate, and what do i do if i fail? zerg is already expanding with mass drones, and i went 9/10gate, so has no mineral left. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
for number 2...hmm..i lost 90% of the games when that happened -_-;; cuz zerg always 3hatch hydra -_-; really fast if i fail my 9/10 gate>< | ||
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On February 24 2004 12:19 ret wrote: what is the best way to micro your units in PvZ , Goon / Zeal / Temp / obs Vs a Lurker / Scourge contain or a Sunken Lurker Spore colony defense? -_-; LOL #2 (okay i've been really busy working on things at the moment so i've picked a nice easy one for you all to tide me over until the easy times come again and i can waste many hours talking about the wonders of the sexy overlord underbelly!) Once again (as is all things starcraft) it's highly dependant on what you have, ie has the robo even started? is it half done? how many units do you have, which type? etc etc) compared to what they have. So its very hard to write specific killer anti lurker containment strats but i'll write up the main way that it is done along with some of the basics and some ideas that might help you in your endevours. To answer your question. in this situation toss usually already has an exp and 6 or so gates, while zerg has 2-3 exps along with proper containment, with lots of lurkers and 1-2 groups of hydra/lings and or scourge with overlords to pick off the obs. In most situations like this many people tend to make the mistake to use all of their men, and often can not control them all well enough to be truly effective, therefor i give you the answer to your dilemma, the Terato style. Hotkey 1: Dragoons Hotkey 2: Obs (with speed or sight preferable) Hotkey 3: Templars (with storm optional ^_^) With this, its best to attack with your goons with the obs running back and fowards above, and the templars just behind ready to storm any mass hydras or lings that come in. (All of your other men can just sit back and admire the pretty flowers while awaiting you to either break out or to replace wounded/manaless units.) Also dont forget to keep building units while your doing the following, including more observers as you usually lose a couple! The attack: The main key here is to firstly protect your observers from getting attacked, so whenever the hydras run in run them back then quickly storm, or if you see scourge, then keep them running forwards and backwards so that the goons can protect them. Secondly, you must protect your dragoons from dying to the usual mass hydra or zergling, thus keep your stormers close by and as soon as you see them running in, target either the front one (if your quick so that they run all run into it, along with the dragoon fire. Its okay if they run back and you dont storm much as your main goal is killing the lurkers, the other units are just an annoyance.) or the middle (if your slow so that the same thing happens) Don't worry if they push you back the first time as this process usually takes a while, and normally involves a few pushes forwards and backwards. So just take advantage of the backward movements and recycle your units, so if your templars are getting low on juice, replace them with others, also with the dragoons, if one has been hurt replace it with healthy men so that while your busy microing they can recharge for the full breakout. Once you've managed to push the zerg back and the first row or two of lurkers have died, before you decide to do the front on charge, you should suicide an observer just to make sure he hasn't put up 50 rows of lurkers! If not, just group all of your men up and charge out. Make sure you have some templars up close to the front so they dont fall too far back for when you need to storm. When you have engaged the enemy make sure your observers split up so they can cover the remaining area to pick off the last few lurkers, if you can also run zealots past so the following troops get protected. At this point leave your men to fend for themselves and jsut focus completely on storming the groups of men that are coming in. It may take some practice before you get used to controlling the original 3 hotkeys well enough to succeed but stick with it. Other things to note is, a lot of zergs go mass lings to counter the mass dragoons so if you dont see any hydra his most likely doing upgraded crack lings, so counter according (ie stop producing goons when you realize you have enough to break out!) and use your storms to good effect. You have a few choices, either head off and do some expansion killing or try and push up to his main, expansions are usually the safer option, but observers would have told you the easiest position to attack. And finally once you've broken out try and set up another expansion while the zerg is forced to focus on the group of men rampaging across the map. That way if your defeated you still end up with an even stronger position to fight from. (canons and storm for defence to stop the counters!) Now for some extras. Frankly i normally use a hell of a lot of zealots instead of dragoons, normally because i waste so much gas on harass i have none left for goons. So here is some other tips for zealot only warfare. Scenario 1: There will be times when you are on the defensive and you really need to save all your units without any losses, you have very little gas trying to save it for the mighty zerg killing templars. Thus it comes about that the game hinges on you winning the final fight (well not really but it sounds better this way!) Now you have an ob and 3-4-5 speedy zealots vs 3-4-5 lurkers. Now 1 on 1 a zealot is a good match vs a lurker, but as the numbers grow the poor little zeals start dying faster then lemmings. Now a nice little trick is, you rush your zealots out with one slightly ahead and to the side, and run it around the lurkers. This is so that 1 zealot takes all the fire (and since its running AROUND, most of the shots acutally miss) while this happens the other zeals split up slightly and begin attacking (so if he notices they dont all get attacked and die in 1 go) Now if he doesn't notice (thus changing the control of the lurkers) they will keep attacking the 1 zealot that did the run-a-round. Now if you run it back and fowards on the far side of the attack the lurkers will keep shooting but missing and you will end up killing all of the lurkers for zero losses! Even if he notices, its generally not straight off so you can get a few hits in and since your already attacking and mildly split up you still have a good chance of gaining a victory. I haven't really seen anyone else use this but it is quite a nice move which has saved me a few times. Scenario 2: When its early on and they only have a few lurkers which they did a rush with and a canon forced them back and they are digging nice little holes in preperation for their evil containment antics .If they only have a few lurkers and not many other unts, its usual for you to just have a few speedy zealots. Now (as stated above) depending on what you have it might be best to just wait it out and and get obs or storms to clear a path out) but a favoured strat is to just run your zealots straight past and cut off reinforcements from coming and to annoy them until you get observers, (generally they only have lurkers and lings, if you have ling killer (+1) you can just hit the lings and run through making him follow you around his base with his lurkers buying time etc) this way they can't set up a full containment and also if your zealots live long enough, when the obs arrive they can help to flank the containment lurkers from both sides thus cutting down on the damage received by a great margin. Scenario 3: Its not used very often, mainly because reavers aren't used as much as other units, and also theres much easier ways to deal with the situation, but desperation through adversity is the creator of ingenuity, and there will just be times when you have to do things like this! 1 reaver, 1 other unit, 1 shuttle vs 1 burrowed lurker. Now if you drop the reaver out of range, then fly shuttle to the lurker drop the unit, make the reaver attack the unit then pick up the unit. The splash can hit the lurker without the unit taking damage. Or you can just do it the normal way and run the zealot over and use the splash to kill it the normal way, but thats not quite as sexy! Scenario 4: Scenario 3; reaver --; archon ++; Run the zealot over the top of the pesky lurker and stick it on hold position(make sure its on the exact spot where the lurker is otherwise the only way you will kill the lurker is from it dying of laughter), run the archon up to the zealot and attack the poor hapless zealot. This is normally best in cases where you dont have observers and the lurker is already almost dead from canons, goons, storm etc. Other general tips with zealots vs mass lurker, is to just run them straight past the lurkers and break them all up so that it minimizes the splash damage received. Or more preferrable just surround the group of lurkers and attack, that way the lurkers all attack outwards and only hit 1 line of zealots. I hope that covers most of it. hf | ||
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radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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Mydnyte
3306 Posts
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GroT
Belgium3003 Posts
LOL#2: Did you watch the rwa of our game? How hard did it rock your world? thanks for all the help | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
Yes i saw the rwa, it rocked my world. | ||
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Born)Slippy
Norway1904 Posts
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
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GroT
Belgium3003 Posts
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iT.Doki
United Kingdom2 Posts
also, can you describe in detail where the imbalance in zvp exists. and what is your oppinion of ogogo ? thanks a lot, Dave. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
if you went fact-port make a wraith if you went fact-fact, just spread your tanks out, get siege and start putting up turrets. if you went fact-cc, pray to the lord that his micro sucks | ||
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StoneR
Spain1252 Posts
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
these are the most effective in my opinion, compared with lurk/muta rushes which i find often tired and overused. | ||
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x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
On March 06 2004 20:45 BigBalls wrote: reaper... if you went fact-port make a wraith if you went fact-fact, just spread your tanks out, get siege and start putting up turrets. if you went fact-cc, pray to the lord that his micro sucks I never go Fact-CC because I don't like it, so I guess I'm not totally screwed. Thanks! | ||
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Pacifist
Israel1683 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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TreY
United States997 Posts
In a PvZ game, what is the best early expansion build, if there is any... | ||
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On March 07 2004 19:10 TreY wrote: LOL or anyone else that isn't a complete idiot-- In a PvZ game, what is the best early expansion build, if there is any... positional + map dependant, be more specific | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 07 2004 19:10 TreY wrote: LOL or anyone else that isn't a complete idiot-- In a PvZ game, what is the best early expansion build, if there is any... refer to kiwi vs nazgul 3v9 LT | ||
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TreY
United States997 Posts
On March 07 2004 22:03 SoMuchBetter wrote: positional + map dependant, be more specific Okay.. we'll say 3v9 on LT, or any other distant starting spots on any other map | ||
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x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
On March 08 2004 03:29 TreY wrote: Okay.. we'll say 3v9 on LT, or any other distant starting spots on any other map If the spots are far enough (that's not bad) go 12 or 14 Nexus, then Forge, then a couple cannons. | ||
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TreY
United States997 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
http://www.wgtour.com/member.php?datab=broodwar&id=94597 | ||
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
i think it is universal that 2 gate zeal then pylon is the most suitable. on non ramp maps u might want a earlish forge (old school tossers used to like 1 gate forge, i still use it in team games!) and after u put up that pylon use some intuition. if u think ull need more zeals (hes goin 4 ling mania) then make more, otherwise put up a assimilator at 21 or so supply and start harvesting, putting cyber up asap. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
(and my name sounds like cock, so it's so much cooler!) | ||
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StaSiS
United States147 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
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x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
On March 09 2004 08:27 TreY wrote: Thanks Reaper. What about if the positions are closer? 12 v 3 - Don't do it, Zerg will realize what's going on too quickly and go for a lot of units. 12 v 9 - Worth a shot, their Drone might get there a little quick though. 12 vs 6 - Very good spots to do this. 12 vs anything - Remember that the choke point at this spot makes for good early expo cannon placement. 3 vs 12 - Don't to it. Zerg's Overlord will see and many many units will come. 3 vs 9 - Good spots. 3 vs 6 - Zerg's scouting Drone will get to you quickly, but these aren't totally terrible spots. 6 vs 12 - Great spots. 6 vs 3 - Pretty good. 6 vs 9 - Their Overlord might see but there is distance between spots to compensate. 9 vs 12 - Zerg's Drone may or may not get there early. Decent spots to try it. 9 vs 3 - Scouts won't reach here for a while, far away, good to try it. 9 vs 6 - Overlord will probably see, but there is distance between the bases to compensate. 9 vs anything - 9 is so good for defending, remember that. There you go. | ||
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Dang-it
United States557 Posts
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On March 13 2004 11:56 x[ReaPeR]x wrote: 12 v 3 - Don't do it, Zerg will realize what's going on too quickly and go for a lot of units. 12 v 9 - Worth a shot, their Drone might get there a little quick though. 12 vs 6 - Very good spots to do this. 12 vs anything - Remember that the choke point at this spot makes for good early expo cannon placement. 3 vs 12 - Don't to it. Zerg's Overlord will see and many many units will come. 3 vs 9 - Good spots. 3 vs 6 - Zerg's scouting Drone will get to you quickly, but these aren't totally terrible spots. 6 vs 12 - Great spots. 6 vs 3 - Pretty good. 6 vs 9 - Their Overlord might see but there is distance between spots to compensate. 9 vs 12 - Zerg's Drone may or may not get there early. Decent spots to try it. 9 vs 3 - Scouts won't reach here for a while, far away, good to try it. 9 vs 6 - Overlord will probably see, but there is distance between the bases to compensate. 9 vs anything - 9 is so good for defending, remember that. There you go. as a conclusion 9 and 6 are almost always good spots to this and at 12 or 3 i'd scout 9 from 12 and 6 from 3 then if he isn't there and no ovi cancel ur gate(s) and xp if ovi has come or he is there then don't xp... | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
I'm curious if either of our resident Protoss experts (Legion? Rek?) would be kind enough to offer their bountiful wisdom and valuable time to make a few since PvZ and PvT seem to be popular matchups for discussion. Maybe someone who knows TvP or ZvP really well could do a RWA while making some comments from the perspective of someone who's facing P as either T or Z (PvP is lame and not worth RWAing in my opinion  ) | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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JoObS
United States18 Posts
but what do you suggest to someone who is just starting to play protoss (im pissed with newbie zerg...ok not newbie, but im american, and not fast enough to be good w/ them ) | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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Yarertz
Djibouti1891 Posts
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UrASofty
Canada772 Posts
this is my build order vs it i 9/10 gate and etc and expo around 8 minutes with speed lots and a couple of temps what should i do ? HLEP ME!@#@!#!@# | ||
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 21 2004 13:24 ApollyoN wrote: LOL: How do you micro your units PvT against a set up push (this is assuming unit count is almost = of course) Right well you send a few of your zealots out with the goons. Reason being they draw tank fire and mines to some degree. The goons need to be taking out the mines and vults as fast as possible. Send your other zealots in fairly quickly, and have them run straight for the tanks. If there aren't many vultures left, that's perfect. Just micro your zealots so they're about 2-3 per tank. once they kill a tank send them to another. If the terran is bad and clumps his tanks in one big blob, templar are crazy . If they blob up their tanks, they're easy prey for zealots.If your zealots all die and he still has 5-6 tanks to your goons.. Run away. You'll lose too many goons. Basically the attack on the push is kind of over once the zealots have done their job, so make sure to kill as many vultures as possible before the vultures can deplete your zealot count | ||
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ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
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Pacifist
Israel1683 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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Born)Slippy
Norway1904 Posts
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Dang-it
United States557 Posts
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Born)Slippy
Norway1904 Posts
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sliggdogg
Australia178 Posts
In TvT, how do you stop a wraith rush followed by tanks? I've lost to this strategy from the same newbie twice in TvT. Wraith rush delay my factory, then tank kill me. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
He has to make a whole other building, just like you do. But armory comes quicker. You'll have goliaths to defend in time.. After that it should be easy, you dont need very many to keep wraiths out of your hair.. | ||
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
1. either start cannoning up and wait for him to drop his shit (have couple of cannons and hts on standby) when he drops his stuff he will have lots of troubles due to hts and his metal will all be clumped perfect for storm. this also is basically what u do on island pvt, same army format (goon/zeal but add in more HT) or 2. go for a stargate and grab sairs. if u want to take the dropships down faster and u have cash go scouts with movement upgrade (this is also the oldschool l337 cool way ) or grab carriers. if hes using dropships often he will make a couple wraith for support (snipe HTs before land etc?) in that case dont forget to rally ur robfac to ur carriers/scouts/sairs so u have a ready supply of detection. note that this is a much more micro/intelligent build cuz if u miss the dropships en route to destination u got a bunch of sair/scout which dont do anything major except dweb.erhm when u said 12/9 i assume u mean he cant force his way onto u early game (like in 6/9) and that he can abuse ur cliff for both ur natural and min only?? then drop goons, or probe and a couple cannons on ur cliff, or patrol with the aforesaid air. if u wanna be classy use DA's to mindcontrol his dropships, mobile terran harass force scouts are also cool to see floating about seeing many people dont make them. and KEEP HIM OFF ISLANDS, or else the game will drag 20-30 more minutes than it should.edit: one more thing u can play it tvt style and counter drop him with zeal/dt in speed shuttle. works well but it wont take down his dropships, and often if ur not onto it fast they can cripple ur economy and do large amounts of damage by the time uve countered. | ||
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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littlechava
United States7218 Posts
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sliggdogg
Australia178 Posts
On April 11 2004 00:46 Rt-S.FakeSteve wrote: uh.. go straight to gol? once his investment in wraiths fails brutally, rape him. He has to make a whole other building, just like you do. But armory comes quicker. You'll have goliaths to defend in time.. After that it should be easy, you dont need very many to keep wraiths out of your hair.. And what about the tanks that follow up? What about investing in detection? | ||
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
after he gets his ports, he has to build factories, which you already have. you should be ahead if you hold off his wraith with little to no losses | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
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Refrain[FriZ]
Canada4337 Posts
MAKE NEW THREAD IF WANT TO CONTINUE THIS! KEEP MAKING NEW THREADS SO EASY TO BROWSE THROUGH YOUR GOSU EXPLANATIONS =] | ||
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ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
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Tricky
China752 Posts
On February 17 2004 09:26 Commander[SB] wrote: LOL: Does my penis size determain my skill at BW? not many good female players in this game right? why? cos they aint got a penis? | ||
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Zerius[TPR]
Canada1633 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On March 26 2004 05:57 -_- wrote: You know we should have some question thread, where anybody (or just other pro's) can answer it. It would be like LOL thread but more answers! Of course you have to make it prestigious so people want to get it .This was meant to have been in the works (which is one reason why i stopped doing new ones) but i dont think anything is happening with it anymore so maybe i should restart doing this. Other reason i stopped doing posts is because of the transfering troubles i had from moving from POS to Dream Team. Occured at the same time i had all the leagues to practice for so i was very low on time (considering i had done none for the 2-3 weeks before i left POS and all the prelims were 1 week after T_T) so i had lots of catching up to do. Anyway i'll read through the last topic and see what i can drag up as an idea or just post from now and i'll do one after our team league on saturday. | ||
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
Just expand a lot, build cannons, keep your guys at nexuses instead of middle (or closer, so u can still break his to-be push) and expand at mineral onlys and mains, and get carrier. Corsair is pretty good though as an anti-dropship. | ||
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
i assume (cuz u didnt make it clear at all) that u want scouts as anti-dropship, and in that role they fuckin rule. find the possible "insertion point" and patrol them. end of dropship problem. or u could just do what the rest of the community does and plonk a goon and 2 zeals on ur ledges. | ||
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Chaddums
United States42 Posts
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ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
On May 20 2004 22:29 Chaddums wrote: 'Another question, for either LOL or someone else: How the FUCK do you stop vulture rush 12v3 TvT? Thank you -_- Ever tried a wallin? or counter with your own vultures. Wtf, any unit beats a vulture rush. | ||
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