EPTPoll: Is Arbiter use in PvZ Somewhat OK?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
[H] Arbiters vs Zerg. PvZ and Breaking in.
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BlissX1
United States328 Posts
Poll: Is Arbiter use in PvZ Somewhat OK? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No | ||
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leejas
United States440 Posts
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
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BlissX1
United States328 Posts
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selboN
United States2523 Posts
On January 30 2010 01:52 Bl1ss wrote: is this build viable thoug? should it possibly become a top priority in this matchup? or should we just focus on a death march raidig the zerg expos? This isn't a "build", it's a late game tactic. If you have excess gas late game and don't mind cutting a few archons to get an arbiter, do it. | ||
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BlissX1
United States328 Posts
On January 30 2010 02:01 selboN wrote: This isn't a "build", it's a late game tactic. If you have excess gas late game and don't mind cutting a few archons to get an arbiter, do it. aww eggs sorry about the wording...i'm just really tired. u are rite. it's not a build., but a tact. | ||
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
On January 30 2010 01:52 Bl1ss wrote: is this build viable thoug? should it possibly become a top priority in this matchup? or should we just focus on a death march raidig the zerg expos? While I think that it could possibly become a viable alternative along the lines of a mid-late game strategy I would think that the arbiter would be very vulnerable unless you commit heavily to sairs. Arbiters cost 100m/350g while for 2 scourge its ~25m/75g. So for 75m/225g the zerg can get enough scourge to probably even penetrate the sair defense and pick off the arbiter. Also seems to really take away the gas you have for templars. In otherwords I feel its very situational and you probably shouldn't commit to more then 1 or 2 arbs. edit-wowfail i suck at remembering unit names. | ||
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
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bluegoo
United States141 Posts
otherwise, just get better at standard. | ||
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Tuke
Finland1666 Posts
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Splendour
Bulgaria129 Posts
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5529 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25996 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
It isn't something you should really focus on as a staple of your PvZ. | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
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piratebay
United States399 Posts
he was on ult ling, ahead of bases, vs my 3 base toss i threw in an arbiter without him knowing for big army clash supported by reavers + ground it turned the tide of the game. quite epic. works at lower ranks. | ||
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Neo7
United States922 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Wouldn't it be safer and more solid to commit more to the archon/reaver than spending gas on arbiter tech though? | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On January 30 2010 03:51 koreasilver wrote: Arbiters can be extremely annoying to deal with, especially if you committed yourself to an ultraling composition in the late game. Wouldn't it be safer and more solid to commit more to the archon/reaver than spending gas on arbiter tech though? An arbiter with stasis is 2 less archons in resources, but the same supply as 1 archon. So if your army size is 200/200 and you have 3-4 bases it's no huge investment and can help to make your army ridiculously better. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On January 30 2010 03:34 piratebay wrote: i just won a 45 minute game in d-rank cuz of arbiters. he was on ult ling, ahead of bases, vs my 3 base toss i threw in an arbiter without him knowing for big army clash supported by reavers + ground it turned the tide of the game. quite epic. works at lower ranks. This is the kind of situation they seem to be viable in. Late, late game, the kind of game after you have both maxed and are clashing armies and working on dividing up the map. It lets you do some nasty tricks and makes it (slightly) more annoying for zerg to deal with. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On January 30 2010 04:05 koreasilver wrote: Yeah, I guess if you're maxed out and the map is split or something it wouldn't be too bad. My very lategame pvz is dark archon/archon/arbiter. I actually use the dark archon's for feedback over maelstrom almost always(I HATE dark swarm and will do anything to stop it. The only exception is for doom drops/lategame zerg air). It lets me get away with having non-existent reaver micro skills. Using arbiters just fills in the extra niche of controlling zerg movement. edit : I guess what I am trying to say is that I think Arbiters aren't quite as effective when used in conjunction with reavers because of how immobile reavers tend to be, even when placed in shuttles. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13074 Posts
I still prefere 4-6 reavers with my normal army as a late game unit of choice. Reavers are the best unit in pvz i never use sair as late game or arbiters tech. If you get to the point of 4-5 gas and got like 2-3 robos at different expo locations your win is secured. Only situation that i would make an arbiters is to maybe humiliate oponent when im like more bases than him and i know i win in any other situations its just not worth it unless you got like 10 sairs to guard it but then your ground army is weak and you are doomed anyway | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 30 2010 04:23 Nevuk wrote: My very lategame pvz is dark archon/archon/arbiter. I actually use the dark archon's for feedback over maelstrom almost always(I HATE dark swarm and will do anything to stop it. The only exception is for doom drops/lategame zerg air). It lets me get away with having non-existent reaver micro skills. Using arbiters just fills in the extra niche of controlling zerg movement. edit : I guess what I am trying to say is that I think Arbiters aren't quite as effective when used in conjunction with reavers because of how immobile reavers tend to be, even when placed in shuttles. I'm assuming that you only compose an army composition like that if the Zerg isn't doing a hydra heavy game plan, right? I dunno. I've always had trouble when Protoss players begin to incorporate reavers into their moving army from their defense as reavers are seriously good against everything, and later when the archon count grows, you can't snipe reavers with mutalisks. Reavers can take more hits than templars to begin with anyway. I can see that your DA/archon/arbiter composition would be easier to control and have more mobility, but it seems like an easier composition to beat in a fight archon/reaver. | ||
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s[O]rry
Canada398 Posts
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KnightOfNi
United States1508 Posts
On January 30 2010 05:05 SkelA wrote: Its really risky to pull this off in a normal game whenever i see arbiter i just make 6-8 scourge and snipe it. Its just too much gas to waste on a arbiter when you desperately need mass ht archons and other gas heavy units. I still prefere 4-6 reavers with my normal army as a late game unit of choice. Reavers are the best unit in pvz i never use sair as late game or arbiters tech. If you get to the point of 4-5 gas and got like 2-3 robos at different expo locations your win is secured. Only situation that i would make an arbiters is to maybe humiliate oponent when im like more bases than him and i know i win in any other situations its just not worth it unless you got like 10 sairs to guard it but then your ground army is weak and you are doomed anyway The thing is, if the protoss player is smart and keeps units with his arbiter and that 8 scourge snipe attempt fails, you just lost a lot more gas than the protoss player did and you handed him a nice advantage seeing as how thats 2 less cows he will have to fight against in the next battle. 4 gas protoss is really fucking scary cuz he can have corsairs (5-6) with his arbiter which makes your scourge 100% useless, and when he's done making sairs he can make a massive archon/reaver army that will basically lolrape you. This doesn't even begin to mention the spellcasting of the arbiter... don't mess with it. I love seeing dark archons and arbiters in PvZs (not when they are against me though rofl) - its the reason PvZ lategame is so much fun :D. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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leejas
United States440 Posts
On January 30 2010 10:54 Xiphos wrote: Well if you guys look at it, Arbiters can be used for Cloak too, if you can get like a decent amount of them, and then Overlord is trying to come in, kill it with Scourge and then rape the hell of Zerg's army. It was pointed out earlier though that if you have a couple of Overlords and went mass hydralurk, that Arbiter is one big fat target. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
But if they go a more mobile army, the recall can be easier destroyed, would cause more losses for the P, and no way to retreat. Sure you can kill the exp, but you could loose a lot more. When they dont go for that big turtle style their defenses would be a lot more spread out and then head on battles and sneaky attacks would be more efficient imo. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On January 30 2010 05:13 koreasilver wrote: I'm assuming that you only compose an army composition like that if the Zerg isn't doing a hydra heavy game plan, right? I dunno. I've always had trouble when Protoss players begin to incorporate reavers into their moving army from their defense as reavers are seriously good against everything, and later when the archon count grows, you can't snipe reavers with mutalisks. Reavers can take more hits than templars to begin with anyway. I can see that your DA/archon/arbiter composition would be easier to control and have more mobility, but it seems like an easier composition to beat in a fight archon/reaver. I have more ht than is usual in a lategame mix, like 3-5 instead of 1 or 2. Mass lings/mass hydra are both pretty hard to deal with, at that point I maelstrom and pray. Both are also very good at defense; not very surprising for the reavers, but arbiters are almost as good behind cannons due to zerg's need for overlords and the amount of hits any zerg army takes trying to snipe them in that formation. The real difference in my experience is the amount of time needed to be focused on the 2 armies - if the zerg runs in and tries to snipe a reaver sitting on the ground, the reaver still gets a shot off and kills a few hydras. If they're in a ball of 6 or 7 just x6 the dead hydras. However, this is not true of my composition so I have to spend more time watching my army in case of an attack. Mael a group of hydras running in to snipe something and then storming it has the same end effect for fewer minerals cost, but requires more focus. Maelstrom/stasis/storm are all frighteningly powerful lategame abilities, on par with reavers lategame, I would say, but most protoss don't like having to watch their army that much. Also, it transitions into the true lategame of pvz more effectively (IE, the starving the zerg to death by stealing their units one at a time phase) and shuts down all zerg air entirely. Ever watch any zerg player ever try and go guardians against a dark archon heavy p army? It's an amazing sight. (Reach vs Chojja iirc?). The composition has a later critical mass than does reaver/archon, but there still exists one. My point, though, was mostly that arbiters and reavers don't compliment each other very well, because by the time you unload reavers and they get a shot off the zerg will have moved an overlord or detection into the area. | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I remember there was a game played by Stork where he used arbiter's recall to very great effect. | ||
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Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
I just thought having a cloaked army, lategame against ultraling would be really strong. Thoughts? | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On January 31 2010 05:33 Saturnize wrote: Just because you haven't seen it in a pro-game doesn't mean its bad. Well, pro gamers do use arbiters in PvZ. There's not many, but there's a good number of them. | ||
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Tuke
Finland1666 Posts
On January 31 2010 05:33 Saturnize wrote: Just because you haven't seen it in a pro-game doesn't mean its bad. Gosl[Flying] vs Effort Day[9] did analyse it too. | ||
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HeartOfTofu
United States308 Posts
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