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Are corsairs viable in a PvT build or are they only useful as a surprise/weirdo build?
the only time i have seen them is in the OSL Ro16 in a  Pusan vs gogo in a game where they were already blocked from advancing, but the corsairs
A) blocked dropship use (useful on maps like outsider and el nino)
B) Disruption Web on tanks can severely limit their use
my argument for why these could be used is that since in most PvT games heavy arbiter use is what is being used but stasis field is limited because as seen in many games most notably best vs  Flash when so many tanks are in stasis it is hard to kill them after they are out and they can be rescued and put to use again
however if disruption web is used for some of the tanks they can be killed with goons no prob and then only half the number of tanks remain to be killed/stasised
basically even though the arbitrer production would be slowed by corsairs the corsairs using their own energy would allow the lower number of arbs to do even more damage as well as leaving possibly even enough energy for recalls
in addition this would mean science vessels would be under attack by the corsairs harassing the Terran even more
but as always this is pure theorycrafting please comment especially those who know Protoss build orders and can add intelligence to this topic
also i dont know why gogo and best did not TLPDise sorry maybe someone can PM me and tell me why 
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theyre not used cos fleet beacon is fucking expensive, you need research, and you need the actual corsair. wtf use is a corsair when a terran army is shelling your natural expansion? you cast a web and then the terran lols and moves his tanks 3 matrixes to the right and its useless. theyre a joke in pvt
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On January 27 2010 21:36 lazz wrote:
theyre not used cos fleet beacon is fucking expensive, you need research, and you need the actual corsair. wtf use is a corsair when a terran army is shelling your natural expansion? you cast a web and then the terran lols and moves his tanks 3 matrixes to the right and its useless. theyre a joke in pvt
Do you know how much it annoys me to unsiege tanks, move them and siege them again? So many ways to get slaughtered while doing that.
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Corsairs are not viable in PvT.
If you don't belive me try using them with someone in your skill range. (above D-)
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On January 27 2010 21:43 disco wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2010 21:36 lazz wrote:
theyre not used cos fleet beacon is fucking expensive, you need research, and you need the actual corsair. wtf use is a corsair when a terran army is shelling your natural expansion? you cast a web and then the terran lols and moves his tanks 3 matrixes to the right and its useless. theyre a joke in pvt Do you know how much it annoys me to unsiege tanks, move them and siege them again? So many ways to get slaughtered while doing that.
Yes, that's all they are, an annoyance. there is no danger of being "slaughtered" if the protoss user has built corsairs. by building corsairs it means hes missing about 20 supply worth of units because resources have been spent in the fleet beacon sairs stargate(s) research etc. instead
fleet beacon : 300m/200g
stargate: 150/150
corsair: 150/100 each
web research: 150/100
say you build 5 corsairs off of one stargate. that's 1350 minerals and 950 gas. Fuck that. Id rather have 6 zealots 6 goons and gas left over for actually useful tech (arbiter/carrier/templar)
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also its very useful to have more energy as a fully energised sair can put down 2 webs.
So add to the cost analysis the argus jewel 100 min 100 gas.
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What you need is to build the fleet bacon really early - so you can have 125 in energy when its needed. This can mean that you wont have observers when you want them and observers is a must in pvt due to mines which can just crush your army like one big tsunami.
I would say the biggest no-go to corsairs is that it can screw up the observer timing.
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Also in the "try your ideas..." thread made by random korean or something, there he made a corsair build in a pvt and he won with it.
useful link (project 2):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108490
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I've won with this build before. It's more micro intensive and I haven't tested it but if your on 3 bases u could probably support storm as well with this build which would be incredible. This build is viable, just not used most likely due to cost effectiveness, the extra amount of micro required, and later tech.
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It can work in the early-midgame, but you have to deny the Terran scouting it or else he'll just add 8 gols to his army and your 'Sairs will instantly die. If he scans your Fleet Beacon, he will assume Carriers most likely and add Goliaths to his army anyways.
Generally speaking, it's a weaker alternative to the other tech options the Protoss has (at the time they would be viable). As mentioned, you need things like Observers and eventually some kind of 'real' air tech like Arbs or Carriers.
Pre-nerf D-web made it a lot more usable, but today's version is too short duration to be of much use, especially if the Terran is patient and micros his army well.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
It's a fun build imo, it has its moments and can catch unsuspecting terrans off guard. Steve and GTR should have some more reps of corsair vs terran (since i played them with it). Here are two games anyway
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/corsair.rar
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its a fun build, thats about it. not viable in competitive play
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Its not viable because u will be down by 30 supply and average skilled terran will know it. He'll just carry on building tanks and vults and move forward without sieging. Not to mention an early push will kill u. When they scan stargates they will push.
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Why would they delay observers? Thats like saying hey, you shouldnt go arbiters, because that delays observers.
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I'm all for protoss to stop using arbiters for more observers.
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On January 28 2010 01:29 Catch]22 wrote:
Why would they delay observers? Thats like saying hey, you shouldnt go arbiters, because that delays observers.
I guess it doesn't have too, but it's a tech you'd really want to rush to make the most of. It's really gas heavy and takes a long time to build, so unless you're on 3 bases (which imo it's too late, you would have been scouted)- I can't see how you afford both Obs and Corsairs + tech.
For example when I go DT rush into 2 base Arbiter, my obs come out wayyyyyyyyyyy later than any standard build. I would imagine it's the same kind of thing, just a different tech tree.
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Once the lockdown revolution comes, this will be a suitable counter strat. You heard it here first!
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If you are ahead i have to say that even with the use of all those minerals, they become very useful as stasis just stops their army while Web forces them to micro instead of macro to try and dance between webs to do damage in which your army is stronger. If you are not ahead of the terran in minerals, dont do it. But also getting corsairs is with D web is a good excuse to transition into carrier late game. So let's say that your first four dragoons really delay their nat, and you are ahead by a minute or two.... a corsair might e pretty viable here because you are so ahead. Also corsairs can be used to take down buildings like barracks and e bays that extend vision for tanks. They also move pretty fast making them fairly good against Science vessels because they can catchup. The Corsairs are not necessary, but using them can be a huge advantage and a surprise because they are not used so much. But do keep in mind that Web costs 100 energy. An EMP would be deadly...although EMP is deadly to just about every protoss unit. I geuss corsairs when out of energy can also be used as tanks for turrets while sneaking your arbiter in.
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One plus with corsair that I don't think anyone mentioned is that they're not bad at dealing with vessels. They also make great scouts for places your obs are not already at. I guess my point is that it's not JUST d-web. In fact, the d-web costs 125 mp, so you'd have to have quite a few corsair and rotate their use for their d web to be effective more than once or twice in a game.
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I won vs some b- who was using sair/goon. That should say enough
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On January 28 2010 02:09 Sgt.StOiC wrote:
One plus with corsair that I don't think anyone mentioned is that they're not bad at dealing with vessels. They also make great scouts for places your obs are not already at. I guess my point is that it's not JUST d-web. In fact, the d-web costs 125 mp, so you'd have to have quite a few corsair and rotate their use for their d web to be effective more than once or twice in a game.
i did mention about Sci vessels....... sorry if it was a bit long to read =D
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First of all, they are a hella lot of fun to use. I've been using them from time to time in up to D+ level PvT, and you dont even have to be that superior a player to pull it off. (but you sure feel like one after a d-web pushbreak^^)
But I have to think on decent play levels they might only be good for one han-bang-ish surprise timing attack, otherwise you're better off teching to arbs with the same resources and time. (the fleet beacon and web research are pretty costly, and you need to invest into several sairs, actually probably even into energy upgrade if you're serious about it.)
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They'll revolutionize korean PvT before SC2 comes out I think. At lower levels of SC I think there are easier options.
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i got owned by mana on hbr like this. he had like 2 groups of units and 6 corsairs and attacked me lol
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On January 28 2010 03:42 MorroW wrote:
i got owned by mana on hbr like this. he had like 2 groups of units and 6 corsairs and attacked me lol
Is it in your TSL rep pack somewhere? If not, rep pls? It would be nice to see high level replays of this...
edit: browsing through quickly the 8 vs Mana games in your TSL reppack, I couldnt find such a game. Please upload it if you have it somewhere.
btw it was fun to see all the chats and trashtalks you had in those 8 games
+ Show Spoiler [examples] +"- ok how i stop this?
- you terran, not me"
"your mom farted"
"I will kill your dog"
"-I think people will love our chats
-What people?
-Your MOM"
"-gg re?
- no
- then kill my buildings"
"-omg what are my goons doing
-dying
-fuck you"
:D
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I once went Sair/Goon/Zealot in a PvT, got my ass severely owned 1 game out of 4. The other 3 games I won.
But I would rather have 3 zealots and a Dragoon than a sair with Dweb.
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If corsairs had consume then they'd probably be good in conjunction with a constant stream of probes or speed upgraded observers.
Barring a corsair-consume patch, you're gonna have a really hard time using them because they don't deal any damage, and at 125 mana per d-web you're not gonna be getting much milage out of d-web. Plus you've got to target each d-web individually which is a micro nightmare and you'll probably have them in a corsair cloud that would be vulnerable to EMP. Unlike Arbiters, if they are EMP'd they have no redeeming qualities.
The real burden is the opportunity cost in terms of other units as someone else has already mentioned. It boils down to: if you win a game with corsairs, you almost definitely would have won the game without corsairs. The converse is probably not true
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-______- you'd need to build fleet beacon, 2-3 stargates, upgrade web AND energy and pump sairs (150/100).
Why not just put down more gateways and pump arbiters?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 28 2010 07:26 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
-______- you'd need to build fleet beacon, 2-3 stargates, upgrade web AND energy and pump sairs (150/100).
Why not just put down more gateways and pump arbiters?
You don't even need that =/ you need just one stargate. You don't need to rush the fleet beacon either since you need your sairs to charge. I think it's viable on outsider (not optimal though) where you have a lot of easy bases and the natural is so cramped up. Plus dropship play is common and sairs can really neutralise that. You can web the entire natural with like.. 3-4 webs pretty easily and then you can really cause some pain.
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On January 28 2010 01:51 mmp wrote:
Once the lockdown revolution comes, this will be a suitable counter strat. You heard it here first!
I lol'd
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if terran had mutalisks they would be useful T.T
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i like to build my fleet beacon at my main nexus so they scan it. theyll get gols thinking im getting carriers and you dweb tanks and rape the goliaths with dragoons.
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People are saying alot here about how expensive it would be... Complaining about buying the research and upgrades, but don't you have to do that for arbiters too?
D-web has about the same AoE. The only disadvantage in my opinion is that zealots won't be able to attack and that you don't have recalls.
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It won't last long enough in late game PvT. It's cute. That's about it. It used to work before blizz shortened the dweb time.
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On January 28 2010 03:49 538 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 03:42 MorroW wrote:
i got owned by mana on hbr like this. he had like 2 groups of units and 6 corsairs and attacked me lol Is it in your TSL rep pack somewhere? If not, rep pls? It would be nice to see high level replays of this... edit: browsing through quickly the 8 vs Mana games in your TSL reppack, I couldnt find such a game. Please upload it if you have it somewhere. btw it was fun to see all the chats and trashtalks you had in those 8 games + Show Spoiler [examples] +"- ok how i stop this?
- you terran, not me"
"your mom farted"
"I will kill your dog"
"-I think people will love our chats
-What people?
-Your MOM"
"-gg re?
- no
- then kill my buildings"
"-omg what are my goons doing
-dying
-fuck you"
:D
heres the replay http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=29932
i hope u enjoy it as much as mana did :D i wouldnt really call this game "high level" tho XD
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On January 28 2010 08:13 laLAlA[uC] wrote:
People are saying alot here about how expensive it would be... Complaining about buying the research and upgrades, but don't you have to do that for arbiters too?
D-web has about the same AoE. The only disadvantage in my opinion is that zealots won't be able to attack and that you don't have recalls.
Except you know that huge AOE cloak they provide and the fact that stasis is way way better than dweb
And I might add that having recall is so fucking gamebreaking it's not even a decision between the two
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Legend did it against Puma (?) in that chinese event on Medusa. I don't think it's bad at all, the main problem is if terran pushes out before your energy is up. And if he scans it and spread his tanks well it's difficult to attack.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The negativity in this topic is depressing. I don't think anyone considers sair/goon a viable, competitive, high-level Serious Strategy. But if you believe, like I do, that the point of playing Starcraft is to have fun, then who cares if it's not a Bisu-approved Perfect PvT Build? It's incredibly enjoyable, and a completely different approach to an otherwise fairly boring matchup. Sure, it's suboptimal, but it's not a stupid strategy (e.g. devourers ZvT), and certainly a viable one.
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Chill has already proven on his stream that mass corsairs (and a mass hallucinated archon army) is incredibly imba and overpowered.
+ Show Spoiler +especially when you go mass hallucinated archons-> mass corsairs -> dark archon mind control -> mass tanks
pretty strong build in Pv(->Tv)T
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Corsairs are doable, but not viable as a standard of play. D-Web might be comparable to stasis, but other than that one spell the Arbiter holds a huge advantage over sairs in utility, as well as cost efficiency.
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This is all you need to know: After go.go beat Pusan in his interview he said "as soon as I saw the corsairs I knew I had won".
edit: it is a joke build you can use to have fun or humiliate lesser opponents.
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I only use them at all to pick off dropships that are hiding in an unreachable corner from the dragoons.
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Beep! Beep! Not enough energy.
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meh as long as you protect your sairs from EMP, unleashing two webs per sair is VERY VERY VERY effective in PvT
its like stasis field, except it doesn't work on the vessels, so you probably will get EMP'd at some point and then its GG4U
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The real answer is to spend all this money and gas on a couple more gateways and high templars. Good protossing.
edit -- I'm not saying this sarcastically at all. With a shuttle and a few HTs, for a little more APM you end up with something that doesn't stall terrans from attacking, but outright kills their units with brutal efficiency. If you're worried about mobility, then all these costs for corsairs, beacons, and stargates can easily afford you shuttle speed.
IT's a fun idea but protoss has such an awesome arsenal that the money is better used elsewhere. Not a weakness so much as protoss has better strengths.
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This one guy used Sairs against me in a TvP it was annoying as hell. Then again I am not very good.
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Arbiters serve the same purpose + do more.
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i have won Pusan before.
And imo corsair isn't worth it, use stasis instead. D-web is horrible vs t
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As far as I can tell, there's no economic incentive for Corsairs with Dweb over Arbiters unless you're planning to get carriers, and not planning to get templar tech. Some kind of Dragoon/Carrier build (with or without Reaver) with corsairs snuck into the build cycle (two while the Fleet Beacon builds, for example, or with the Stargate placed early to get more than that) sounds like the most reasonable way to incorporate Corsairs into a PvT build.
Do stuff like only getting a couple observers to detect mines (corsairs can easily scout factory/armory count) and maaaaybe you could justify corsairs. I predict you'll end up ahead if the opponent goes for drop play, and behind against anything else, but my PvT is bollocks so I guess I'll try it out.
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I might be wrong here, but if my memory serves me right, Pusan still had a chance to advance when he played this game so this build wasn't a fun build but an attempt to win in the manliest fashion possible.
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There is an old game of Boxer vs I don't remember who in the hall of fame, on a blue map that I don't remember neither (very precise, I know), where his opponent break his tank contain in the middle of the map with DWeb.
Well... It was in 2001 or something.
I think that's viable when you have a huge lead and want to have fun. Otherwise why don't you just storm him to death a la Jangbi? That's just way more efficient for that much gas.
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It is so viable that when it succeeds it becomes pimpest play as in F0rU vs Sync 2002/03 if i remember correctly!
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On January 30 2010 19:28 NiGoL wrote:
i have won Pusan before.
On January 30 2010 19:28 NiGoL wrote:
i have won Pusan before.
On January 30 2010 19:28 NiGoL wrote:
i have won Pusan before.
On January 30 2010 19:28 NiGoL wrote:
i have won Pusan before.
-_-
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well, i think corsair is more useful than arbiter in some maps like lost temple, python but some large maps is better use arbiters... i actually play against terran with corsair +goons and i win easily, when they come with goliaths i just use disruption web on them too (of course when that happen you have 8+ corsairs and a lot of goons).
The key with this strategy is to push just with goons and try to delay the terran army as much as you can because when your 3-4 corsairs will be ready with d-web, your opponent will have a lot of trouble. And remember: corsair is fast and is easily to remake if destroy than arbiter, cost less and d-web uses less energy. And in late games you could make carriers easily and annoying the terran's goliaths with d-web and with some ability destroy the vessel with corsairs too.
Just try for yourselves to see the difference.
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Yeah, D-web totally costs less energy than stasis, good point
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Strange, everyone seems to think d-web lasts 20 seconds. It lasts 8. Also, stasis doesn't last 60 seconds, it lasts 30. I think using d-web is viable if you have fast handspeed and know how to manage your units, I've used them in high ranked games successfully, but arbiters are obviously cheaper and immediately useful, plus the tech you need for arbiters should already be part of your tech tree, without counting the stargate  The choice between the two should be pretty obvious, but going mass corsairs is a lot of fun :D
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I did this a couple of times.
I use it as a late game strategy or when i get my third up and running. But I have also learned that its better to spend the money on recalls or carriers.
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not economically efficient enough in late-game non-carrier games imo
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Fleet beacons too expensive and there's barely anything for them to shoot, old say even a scout would be more useful =/
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EPT
