[G]Cheese Builds - Page 9

On December 28 2009 14:10 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:


Yes, it does. A D+ understands the game better than a D. This is fact. I don't see how you could ever hope to refute this.

On December 28 2009 14:48 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:


You still can't claim to understand the game better than a B/A ranked player and only be D..I mean, sure you can probably get to C- on just macroing well, but after that you need to understand the game to get any further.

I can tell you that Jaedong and Flash understand the game better than anyone. I'm sure we can agree on this. I can also tell you that Jaedong's destruction of the ZvZ match-up not too long ago was based on his UNDERSTANDING of the match-up, not just some coin-flip. Sure, someone like Calm can beat him in a series with tricky builds, but Jaedong is better because he understands.

On December 28 2009 15:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
you dont even need 100 to get out of d

On December 28 2009 15:49 FabledIntegral wrote:


This is not a fact and potentially one of the most easily refutable posts in this thread so far.



You can get to C- easily with absolute horrible macro and good understanding, and you can also get there mechanically with little idea what you're doing. Your examples are pretty bad. You can't say shit about Jaedong and Flash understanding the game better than anyone. Many progamers are also limited by their APM, for example Boxer/Stork/Savior are all relatively slow (well Stork claims he is very slow in comparison to Bisu). Nor can you blindly claim Jaedong's ZvZ had anything to do with his understanding of the matchup when it is one of the easier matchups to understand, and instead comes strictly down to micro wars. Am I saying it is easy to understand? No, but the limited number of options of what you can actually DO in the matchup means that his dominance most likely is not attributed to what you are saying.

- Did you prepare your strategy today?
▲ It was ad-libbed. I only prepared the build order, and I played accordingly as the game went. Firefist started out with such a safe build, so I thought that I would win as long as I didn’t make mistakes.

- After your overlord scout, did you find the timing for zergling push?
▲ When I saw my opponent’s zergling count, I knew he went lair first. If he saw me rushing, he would have put down a colony as well as a spire, so I knew he wouldn’t have enough resources for additional lings. When I pushed my first 8 lings, it was good for me to let just a few survive, but because all of them survived luckily, the game was in favor of me.

On December 28 2009 07:54 MuffinDude wrote:

Seriously. You are nerd raging right here. I made this not for shine v stork, but more for jaedong v flash. If you just want to come here and talk about how stupid this is, then just leave.

On December 28 2009 18:24 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:


I can agree with the rest of your post, but this part stands out to me, just because I don't think it's true that ZvZ is based entirely on micro wars. There are so many timing quirks in the matchup that are so hard to pick up on.



From his recent MSL game against Firefist. The second part especially is just a small insight into the things that someone like Jaedong can understand and use to his advantage, while someone else, regardless of APM limitations, will most likely not.

Keep in mind that this is just an example, there are undoubtedly more precise timings and other fine details that he's not going to tell the interviewer, just because the less people know about him, the better Jaedong's chances.

On December 14 2009 06:52 genericname92 wrote:
cheese is an excuse greedy players use when they lose cause they powered too hard

On December 17 2009 10:09 Severedevil wrote:

Yes.

Coupled with the realization that insufficient scouting is a form of economic greed, and that teching is a form of powering.

On December 20 2009 02:29 Ricjames wrote:
What the hell is cheese. Some retarded player invented the word for people that outsmarted him with some tricky play...It is all brood war and no matter how you play, you play how you want. If you play risky, good player punishes you and bad player get his ass "cheesed" and cry.

On December 28 2009 15:03 MuffinDude wrote:

I'm not sure if jaedong knows better calm, I don't think anyone but the progamers could actually say any progamers understand the game better than the other, but I could also say that jaedong has better mutalisk control than calm and that's a huge factor in his victories. But seriously, the reason why I can't get out of D is because I keep running into mines and other things. High ranks might know how to play better than I do, but it doesn't mean they understand the mechanics better.

Take jaehoon for example. He isn't great, but he comes out with great builds that stork and jangbi use to win. Jaehoon understands the game but he just doesn't have the apm needed to win with it. I think you are completely ignoring the fact that I don't have 300+ APM, or even 200+ APM, to work with and that is whats holding me back mostly.


I provided evidence from stork v best vod that stork wasn't able to keep up constant probe production even though he made a cybernetics and that he didn't have too big of a econ advantage after the gateways fell.

On December 28 2009 22:20 RaptorX wrote:
After reading Kwark's posts I came to understand what some of the guys said on a thread I made about 2gate ...here are the quotes:







I think I retreat my vote. 2gate proxy is not "cheese"... there is no such thing as cheese in BW, it is just a risky build as any other.

A "safe" build is that one in which you micro less knowing that you can stop any early aggression but even on those builds you have risks... 2gate robo > reaver for example risks the fact that your opponent goes 4gate goon, and a 4gate goon guy is risking that you go 1gate > Dt, but that one risks that you go 2gate mass zealot and attack early....

So basically proxy gates are just another type of build order in which you have to micro more.

Actually even if your proxy went bad you can come back fairly easy. It is as Kwark said. You build an economic advantage which will bring you ahead in the long run, and yes 3 probes make a difference in PvP...

On December 28 2009 19:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:

You must be kidding me?

When did I raged? You raged when you posted a whole post full of "FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK" after Flash roflstomped Jaedong. :-)

My point is perfectly valid, and you didn't bother to discuss it. This discussion doesn't hold any interest as long as use a word which is pejorative, as long as you put a negative value on the idea of cheesing. Everything is legit in starcraft, if not it would be a bad game.

Now, you will make your thread, deciding that 4 pool is a cheese, that cheese is """gay""" and everybody who will get 4 pool will have good reasons to rage because his opponent is gay, it's written now. I say that it is a bad idea, and that you should rather discuss why on earth is there anything bad to open 4 pool, or BBS, or to drone drill your opponent on Troy, or to win a whole serie by bunker rushing your opponent (if he's ad enough not to be able to stop it).

Make a neutral discussion, not the same day that nerd raging over Jaedong being kicked out by Flash who completely outsmarted him, and you'll may have more success. Maybe.

On December 28 2009 22:20 RaptorX wrote:
Actually even if your proxy went bad you can come back fairly easy. It is as Kwark said. You build an economic advantage which will bring you ahead in the long run, and yes 3 probes make a difference in PvP...

On December 29 2009 05:28 MuffinDude wrote:
Seriously. You are nerd raging right here. I made this not for shine v stork, but more for jaedong v flash. If you just want to come here and talk about how stupid this is, then just leave.

On December 29 2009 05:28 MuffinDude wrote:
Sigh. Check back and you'll see that I nerd raged over shine beating stork, not flash cheesing jaedong out of osl. Dumbass. Seriously. Just get out, nobody wants you here. You're clearly having no success here.

On December 29 2009 05:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:




HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Sure man. I am the jackass here. :-)

On December 29 2009 05:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:




HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Sure man. I am the jackass here. :-)

On December 29 2009 06:16 RaptorX wrote:
@Fontong

Actually I was talking about proxy gate in the opponents base made with the method that Kwark described and I would say that you could make a hard counter to a safe build after scouting it, thats how 4gate goon works.

I do agree that A safe build can rarely be hard countered by an opponent who hasn't scouted it yet, but i dont think an aggressive build is designed to win right there right now, it is designed to give you a slight advantage at the beginning of the game in which you will build on.

The problem is that lesser skilled players use these aggressive builds just to win at the first try and usually they succeed but when their first attack fails they usually lose and thats why i believe people call it cheese. On the other hand, if a pro-gamer gets his hands on an aggressive build like 4pool while his opponent went 9pool (which they say is a hard counter) I am pretty sure he will have a way to come back out of it, which simply makes me say: "then it is not a cheese build, is just a very aggressive build"

@MuffinDude

I am just a D+/C- player and I can tell you, if your opponent has more zealot than you but he cant kill you with them AND he cant produce at the same pace than you then you have a HUGE advantage, it doesnt seem much to your eyes but as many have said just building constant probes gets you to the C ranks... 3 probes more than your opponent means that you can lay down an extra gate and make zealots faster than him or you can tech quicker than him which is what Kwark tried to explain you.

Just because you are down 2 gates 1 pylon and some zealots doesnt mean you lost, when your gates and pylon where going down you already build gates on your main again, he has 4 zealots and you have 2, but he cant kill you and you have 3 probes more than him and you keep it that way...you are in an advantage, simple as that.

I think builds like that are meant to give you a slight advantage. The problem is that lower ranks use those builds as a "win now" strategy and when it fails they have no clue of what to do next. Thats the reason they lose. Not because the build is all-in but because they really have no idea how to continue and then they really think it is cheese when somebody else do it because on their own experience "that build doesnt work"

I used to think that 2gate vs Zerg was cheese until I started using it, now i see that if the first attack fails that doesnt mean i lost. I can transition fine. I just thought that 2gate proxy was also cheese, but now that I understand the plan then I understand that the strategy is not to win in the first attack and that you can transition fine if you know what you are doing.

edit:
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lol OWNED....
Im sorry but i agree with biff in everything he said... who said that "he is not wanted here"?

Then it seems even all the sudden doesn't it?

On December 29 2009 06:36 KwarK wrote:
MuffinDude.

You can't simply say "he is spending on economy". That's not how the PvP economy works. Zerg can do that because they can force their opponent to make zerglings while droning themselves in ZvZ but that doesn't happen in PvP. There is almost no flexibility in economic investment. You're both making probes. As for a faster expansion, the army advantage he gains in defending a twin horror gate is insufficient to stop you expanding at the same time. Travel time is a huge factor and it really doesn't take any time at all for the mineral losses to be recouped by a stronger probe count and the disruption to his mining.

Everything you have said in this topic is theorycrafting. I keep countering it with my experience of the game and you say it doesn't make sense to you or you don't understand why it'd work like that. As I tried to explain last night, it doesn't matter that you don't understand why a Protoss can throw away 2 gateways as part of an economic opening and come out ahead if he outmicros his opponent. You don't play Starcraft. You don't have to know things like that. It'd be impressive if you did. But please, please stop arguing. You're not bringing anything new to the table. You're just raising the same theorycrafted bullshit over and over and all it's doing is wasting the time of people who actually do this stuff in actual games.

On December 29 2009 06:40 RaptorX wrote:


and thats all what Kwark tried to tell you in about 15 posts...

Now... think about it... just stop and think about it.... first you have an advantage which you should build upon, right? is not an all-in strategy cause you can continue playing even if it failed.

The bad thing that can happen is that he goes econ and matches your economy making the game EVEN... how is that possibly a "cheese"? how is that an all-in???

The worst that can happen is that he outplayed you, out-macroed you or out-microed you... and you know what? that can happen even if you both play the safest build.

Therefore after understanding the information that a B player gave me I came to the conclusion that horror gating is not cheese. Sending 4 rines + almost all your SVCs is "cheese" or "all in" or whatever you want to call it...

That is a win or die strategy even at the highest levels. Not even pro-gamers can come back from that if it fails... do you understand now what Kwark was talking about?