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KwarK
United States42773 Posts
That much should be self evident lol. The point, that I have made countless times now, is that with competent micro, that shouldn't happen. Obviously if it fails you're at a disadvantage. Did I really need to spell that out for you? I was hoping you could work that out for yourself. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:37 KwarK wrote: You have enough minerals to make probes and pylons. Your probe production never stops and therefore you maintain your probe difference. And over time that is far, far more valuable than lost pylons and gateways. You're phrasing your theorycrafting as questions. The answer is yes, the build can keep up with it. Remember he's allowed to have around 3 more zealots than you without you being in any trouble, just from travel time. More if you have a ramp secured. With a secure ramp you have 3 zealots at the top attacking 2 of his you can hold for ages. And ages + better probe count = better zealot count. I just watched the stork v best game and @6:03 when the attack ended, I counted about 10 probes in best's base. @6:18, I counted about 12 probes+1 probe on its way to best's base in stork's base. 3 probe difference, thats not much of an advantage is it? Now I know that stork went core so he had to stop probe production to build the core, but adding about 2 more probes, which is about how much you can make in the time needed to save up mineral to make a core. So total you can get about 5 probe advantage, but then I would like to subtract about 2 more probe's worth to remake the gateway. So in total you get about 3 probe advantage when it works. Now if best had better control and let 3 more probes live, then suddenly its about even, or you can say that stork would be behind because he has less zealot count and one less gateway. On December 28 2009 11:39 KwarK wrote: I don't see how I'm dodging the "what happens if it fails question". If you don't kill any probes then when you lose control of his base and fall back to yours, as planned, he has the economic advantage rather than you. He then establishes a contain and you are at a disadvantage. That much should be self evident lol. The point, that I have made countless times now, is that with competent micro, that shouldn't happen. Obviously if it fails you're at a disadvantage. Did I really need to spell that out for you? I was hoping you could work that out for yourself. Which leads to the question how often does it fail? | ||
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KwarK
United States42773 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:49 MuffinDude wrote: Which leads to the question how often does it fail? About as often as I play A- korean Protoss players. They have good micro. | ||
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ToN
Canada245 Posts
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:49 MuffinDude wrote: Which leads to the question how often does it fail? Well since you won't take the opinion of Kwark, who is definitely qualified to talk about this, about the viability of the build, just look at the video of Best vs Stork on plasma. Do you think Stork, an S class player, would have used the build if he didn't think he could deal significant economic damage, versus someone who, at the time, was an S class PvPer? | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 28 2009 11:54 Fontong wrote: Well since you won't take the opinion of Kwark, who is definitely qualified to talk about this, about the viability of the build, just look at the video of Best vs Stork on plasma. Do you think Stork, an S class player, would have used the build if he didn't think he could deal significant economic damage, versus someone who, at the time, was an S class PvPer? In that video, stork's game plan was to get a tech advantage over best, which is why stork followed through with the gas steal. He wasn't that economically ahead. And its not that I won't take the opinion of kwark, its more like I want to hear on about how far behind you will be if it doesn't work. Besides saying it will work it will work, he is just stating the obvious by saying it if doesn't work, it fails. I want to know how much it fails by and all. The only thing he convinced me was that there is much more depth to this and if it works, it works, the latter being pretty obvious. On December 28 2009 11:52 ToN wrote: If you screw up your zealot micro? What this really boils down to is the same as any strategy you preform. If you go 2gate reaver and screw up your reaver micro and get it kill. That is how that build would fail right? If you say it this way, won't all build that has been classified as cheese be not cheese then? Because you know, if you don't do enough damage with these cheese then its fail? | ||
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ToN
Canada245 Posts
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KwarK
United States42773 Posts
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ToN
Canada245 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:13 KwarK wrote: If you're doing it in the middle of their base and it's a question of whether they know the correct response and can execute it rather than any luck then it can't be cheese. Cheese relies on chance. If they know what you're doing then they don't have to get lucky to block it, they just have to get smart. So your definition of cheese is the element of luck. Proxy 2 gate can reach very similar results as horror 2 gate, yet proxy 2 gate is counted as cheese. Any explanation to this? On December 28 2009 12:16 ToN wrote: There is a higher probability of losing when cheesing. The reason it works is when the enemy does not know how to properly negate it because if its rarity. I believe this is what kwark said just said restated. Under this definition I believe this build can be defined as not cheese unless otherwise proven inviable somehow. All builds are viable to some point, you should remember that. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:18 MuffinDude wrote: So your definition of cheese is the element of luck. Proxy 2 gate can reach very similar results as horror 2 gate, yet proxy 2 gate is counted as cheese. Any explanation to this? Horror gate isn't a blind build, as Kwark explained to you many times. | ||
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ToN
Canada245 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 28 2009 12:21 Fontong wrote: Horror gate isn't a blind build, as Kwark explained to you many times. Yes, it isn't a blind build, but just because it isn't a blind build, does this suddenly make the build not a cheese? Proxy 2 gate in the natural is easily as scoutable as this horror 2 gate, yet that is still considered as a cheese. I think this is a cheese build mainly because its a high risk build that determines the flow of the game. On December 28 2009 12:24 ToN wrote: I suppose the definition of viable would basically that there isn't really one exploitative tactic that would give a player of relative skill a high percentage of winning which this build so far has proven not to have. If you guys have already agreed on it being cheese (I don't remember you 2 agree on this but I don't want to reread the entire thread) the reason kwark had stated earlier at least is that if known the build would if known be beaten because of the considerably slower arrival time of zealots. We have not set a standard definition of cheese. This is probably the main reason why our ideas conflict, but I sort of wanted to avoid the "define cheese" discussion because it will take a long time to come to a certain definition. On December 28 2009 12:28 ToN wrote: I think Kwark addressed this earlier as I mentioned in my above post because of the significantly slower zealots it is relatively easy to defend and thus fail. edit: but is this not another build for another week? =P Well if I'm the only one who thinks this is a cheese, I might as well start the poll early to see if people think it is a cheese or not. | ||
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ToN
Canada245 Posts
edit: but is this not another build for another week? =P | ||
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ToN
Canada245 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On December 28 2009 09:58 MuffinDude wrote: You seem to bring in rank to this matter. You know higher rank doesn't mean you understand the game better, but maybe you just can perform better? Yes, it does. A D+ understands the game better than a D. This is fact. I don't see how you could ever hope to refute this. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 28 2009 14:10 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Yes, it does. A D+ understands the game better than a D. This is fact. I don't see how you could ever hope to refute this. No, Nal_Ra understands the game better than most people, even more than people like upmagic, lomo, great, and others, but he will probably be lower rank than them on iccup. Another way of looking at this is an avid sports fan might understand the sport very well, better than some other players, but will lose to them when they actually play the sport. There I just refuted it. Understanding the game is part of it. Performing is another. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On December 28 2009 14:17 MuffinDude wrote: No, Nal_Ra understands the game better than most people, even more than people like upmagic, lomo, great, and others, but he will probably be lower rank than them on iccup. Another way of looking at this is an avid sports fan might understand the sport very well, better than some other players, but will lose to them when they actually play the sport. There I just refuted it. Understanding the game is part of it. Performing is another. You still can't claim to understand the game better than a B/A ranked player and only be D..I mean, sure you can probably get to C- on just macroing well, but after that you need to understand the game to get any further. I can tell you that Jaedong and Flash understand the game better than anyone. I'm sure we can agree on this. I can also tell you that Jaedong's destruction of the ZvZ match-up not too long ago was based on his UNDERSTANDING of the match-up, not just some coin-flip. Sure, someone like Calm can beat him in a series with tricky builds, but Jaedong is better because he understands. | ||
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ToN
Canada245 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 28 2009 14:48 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: You still can't claim to understand the game better than a B/A ranked player and only be D..I mean, sure you can probably get to C- on just macroing well, but after that you need to understand the game to get any further. I can tell you that Jaedong and Flash understand the game better than anyone. I'm sure we can agree on this. I can also tell you that Jaedong's destruction of the ZvZ match-up not too long ago was based on his UNDERSTANDING of the match-up, not just some coin-flip. Sure, someone like Calm can beat him in a series with tricky builds, but Jaedong is better because he understands. I'm not sure if jaedong knows better calm, I don't think anyone but the progamers could actually say any progamers understand the game better than the other, but I could also say that jaedong has better mutalisk control than calm and that's a huge factor in his victories. But seriously, the reason why I can't get out of D is because I keep running into mines and other things. High ranks might know how to play better than I do, but it doesn't mean they understand the mechanics better. Take jaehoon for example. He isn't great, but he comes out with great builds that stork and jangbi use to win. Jaehoon understands the game but he just doesn't have the apm needed to win with it. I think you are completely ignoring the fact that I don't have 300+ APM, or even 200+ APM, to work with and that is whats holding me back mostly. On December 28 2009 14:48 ToN wrote: Well that may vary well be true you need evidence to support your claims. Being B rank on iccup imo is better evidence then if someone was d ranked. Also he's done the strat.... and its also the fact he uses it against b ranked players that imo also supports his cause. I provided evidence from stork v best vod that stork wasn't able to keep up constant probe production even though he made a cybernetics and that he didn't have too big of a econ advantage after the gateways fell. | ||
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