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On December 26 2009 15:54 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 15:52 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:39 nebffa wrote:
Sigh. Bunch of retards. I didn't write it properly, but I meant if the 2 gate if fended off then stork would of been fucked on any other map besides plasma. The point of cheese is that if it works you win, and it worked for bisu. Can we get back on track now discussing whether 2 gate is a cheese. Its because of retards like you that we get off track so easily, going what about this. Well what about this. There will always be an exception so live with it.
ooo settle grettel. but guys... come on. TWO gates, PROXIED in your OPPONENTS MAIN. thats cheese. From OP: As for the definition of cheese, I will take the definition of cheese from liquidpedia which is - "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." After this is done, hopefully the list can go into liquidpedia. Proxy gates in minline/main: Highly unconventional: yes Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted easy to defeat if scouted: no so proxy gates right next to the opponent in their own base get a 25% on the cheese definition. That's an F no matter where you are. I refute you here. First of all
Proxy gates in minline/main:
Highly unconventional: yes
Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional
impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted
easy to defeat if scouted: no
A. Thats 3 things you listed and you gave it a 25% based on cheese definition. You can't get 25% with 3 things, maybe 33.33% or 66.67%, but not 25%. B. It is relatively easy to defeat if scouted. PJ v stork in like 2007 WCG i think, stork proxy 2 gate in pj's nat, pj scouted it and won the game. Defending it really depends on the skill. If they're even on skill, I'd say you should be able to win since you got probes and shit on your side. Proxy gates in minline/main: 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted 4easy to defeat if scouted: no i never posted a game with proxy gates in the nat
Ok. I'll admit that proxy in their base is rather weird situation. But lets look at it this way.
1Highly unconventional: yes
2Take opponent by surprise: yes, unconventional, but still yes, I would be surprised as fuck if it happens to me.
3impossible to defeat if not scouted: Not applicable
4easy to defeat if scouted: no
Excluding the NA category, thats a 66%, thats barely passing (maybe not in some places) but its enough for a diplomat in high school.
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On December 26 2009 15:57 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 15:54 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:52 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:39 nebffa wrote:
Sigh. Bunch of retards. I didn't write it properly, but I meant if the 2 gate if fended off then stork would of been fucked on any other map besides plasma. The point of cheese is that if it works you win, and it worked for bisu. Can we get back on track now discussing whether 2 gate is a cheese. Its because of retards like you that we get off track so easily, going what about this. Well what about this. There will always be an exception so live with it.
ooo settle grettel. but guys... come on. TWO gates, PROXIED in your OPPONENTS MAIN. thats cheese. From OP: As for the definition of cheese, I will take the definition of cheese from liquidpedia which is - "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." After this is done, hopefully the list can go into liquidpedia. Proxy gates in minline/main: Highly unconventional: yes Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted easy to defeat if scouted: no so proxy gates right next to the opponent in their own base get a 25% on the cheese definition. That's an F no matter where you are. I refute you here. First of all
Proxy gates in minline/main:
Highly unconventional: yes
Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional
impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted
easy to defeat if scouted: no
A. Thats 3 things you listed and you gave it a 25% based on cheese definition. You can't get 25% with 3 things, maybe 33.33% or 66.67%, but not 25%. B. It is relatively easy to defeat if scouted. PJ v stork in like 2007 WCG i think, stork proxy 2 gate in pj's nat, pj scouted it and won the game. Defending it really depends on the skill. If they're even on skill, I'd say you should be able to win since you got probes and shit on your side. Proxy gates in minline/main: 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted 4easy to defeat if scouted: no i never posted a game with proxy gates in the nat Ok. I'll admit that proxy in their base is rather weird situation. But lets look at it this way. 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: yes, unconventional, but still yes, I would be surprised as fuck if it happens to me. 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: Not applicable 4easy to defeat if scouted: no Excluding the NA category, thats a 66%, thats barely passing (maybe not in some places) but its enough for a diplomat in high school.
So something that fulfills this following statement is cheese?
Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise**. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.
**where the condition of surprising the opponent can be fulfilled by doing everything fully within his vision
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On December 26 2009 16:04 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 15:57 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 15:54 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:52 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:39 nebffa wrote:
Sigh. Bunch of retards. I didn't write it properly, but I meant if the 2 gate if fended off then stork would of been fucked on any other map besides plasma. The point of cheese is that if it works you win, and it worked for bisu. Can we get back on track now discussing whether 2 gate is a cheese. Its because of retards like you that we get off track so easily, going what about this. Well what about this. There will always be an exception so live with it.
ooo settle grettel. but guys... come on. TWO gates, PROXIED in your OPPONENTS MAIN. thats cheese. From OP: As for the definition of cheese, I will take the definition of cheese from liquidpedia which is - "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." After this is done, hopefully the list can go into liquidpedia. Proxy gates in minline/main: Highly unconventional: yes Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted easy to defeat if scouted: no so proxy gates right next to the opponent in their own base get a 25% on the cheese definition. That's an F no matter where you are. I refute you here. First of all
Proxy gates in minline/main:
Highly unconventional: yes
Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional
impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted
easy to defeat if scouted: no
A. Thats 3 things you listed and you gave it a 25% based on cheese definition. You can't get 25% with 3 things, maybe 33.33% or 66.67%, but not 25%. B. It is relatively easy to defeat if scouted. PJ v stork in like 2007 WCG i think, stork proxy 2 gate in pj's nat, pj scouted it and won the game. Defending it really depends on the skill. If they're even on skill, I'd say you should be able to win since you got probes and shit on your side. Proxy gates in minline/main: 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted 4easy to defeat if scouted: no i never posted a game with proxy gates in the nat Ok. I'll admit that proxy in their base is rather weird situation. But lets look at it this way. 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: yes, unconventional, but still yes, I would be surprised as fuck if it happens to me. 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: Not applicable 4easy to defeat if scouted: no Excluding the NA category, thats a 66%, thats barely passing (maybe not in some places) but its enough for a diplomat in high school. So something that fulfills this following statement is cheese? Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise**. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.**where the condition of surprising the opponent can be fulfilled by doing everything fully within his vision
That is why I created this thread. To pick on these little details. Save your argument for now, I'll be more specific by stating not in your opponent's base for the specification.
But you did read why stork would of lost if it wasn't on plasma right?
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On December 26 2009 16:07 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 16:04 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:57 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 15:54 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:52 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:39 nebffa wrote:
Sigh. Bunch of retards. I didn't write it properly, but I meant if the 2 gate if fended off then stork would of been fucked on any other map besides plasma. The point of cheese is that if it works you win, and it worked for bisu. Can we get back on track now discussing whether 2 gate is a cheese. Its because of retards like you that we get off track so easily, going what about this. Well what about this. There will always be an exception so live with it.
ooo settle grettel. but guys... come on. TWO gates, PROXIED in your OPPONENTS MAIN. thats cheese. From OP: As for the definition of cheese, I will take the definition of cheese from liquidpedia which is - "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." After this is done, hopefully the list can go into liquidpedia. Proxy gates in minline/main: Highly unconventional: yes Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted easy to defeat if scouted: no so proxy gates right next to the opponent in their own base get a 25% on the cheese definition. That's an F no matter where you are. I refute you here. First of all
Proxy gates in minline/main:
Highly unconventional: yes
Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional
impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted
easy to defeat if scouted: no
A. Thats 3 things you listed and you gave it a 25% based on cheese definition. You can't get 25% with 3 things, maybe 33.33% or 66.67%, but not 25%. B. It is relatively easy to defeat if scouted. PJ v stork in like 2007 WCG i think, stork proxy 2 gate in pj's nat, pj scouted it and won the game. Defending it really depends on the skill. If they're even on skill, I'd say you should be able to win since you got probes and shit on your side. Proxy gates in minline/main: 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted 4easy to defeat if scouted: no i never posted a game with proxy gates in the nat Ok. I'll admit that proxy in their base is rather weird situation. But lets look at it this way. 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: yes, unconventional, but still yes, I would be surprised as fuck if it happens to me. 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: Not applicable 4easy to defeat if scouted: no Excluding the NA category, thats a 66%, thats barely passing (maybe not in some places) but its enough for a diplomat in high school. So something that fulfills this following statement is cheese? Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise**. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.**where the condition of surprising the opponent can be fulfilled by doing everything fully within his vision That is why I created this thread. To pick on these little details. Save your argument for now, I'll be more specific by stating not in your opponent's base. But you did read why stork would of lost if it wasn't on plasma right?
And I don't agree with you. I think we could come to a satisfactory conclusion with a replay, but since there isn't one available I don't think you can really prove it either way. Not only that, the map without the eggs would be an entire different story anyway.
I agree with you though about the difficulty of defining cheese, which is partially why I argued this.
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On December 26 2009 16:12 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 16:07 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 16:04 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:57 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 15:54 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:52 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote:On December 26 2009 15:39 nebffa wrote:
Sigh. Bunch of retards. I didn't write it properly, but I meant if the 2 gate if fended off then stork would of been fucked on any other map besides plasma. The point of cheese is that if it works you win, and it worked for bisu. Can we get back on track now discussing whether 2 gate is a cheese. Its because of retards like you that we get off track so easily, going what about this. Well what about this. There will always be an exception so live with it.
ooo settle grettel. but guys... come on. TWO gates, PROXIED in your OPPONENTS MAIN. thats cheese. From OP: As for the definition of cheese, I will take the definition of cheese from liquidpedia which is - "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." After this is done, hopefully the list can go into liquidpedia. Proxy gates in minline/main: Highly unconventional: yes Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted easy to defeat if scouted: no so proxy gates right next to the opponent in their own base get a 25% on the cheese definition. That's an F no matter where you are. I refute you here. First of all
Proxy gates in minline/main:
Highly unconventional: yes
Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional
impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted
easy to defeat if scouted: no
A. Thats 3 things you listed and you gave it a 25% based on cheese definition. You can't get 25% with 3 things, maybe 33.33% or 66.67%, but not 25%. B. It is relatively easy to defeat if scouted. PJ v stork in like 2007 WCG i think, stork proxy 2 gate in pj's nat, pj scouted it and won the game. Defending it really depends on the skill. If they're even on skill, I'd say you should be able to win since you got probes and shit on your side. Proxy gates in minline/main: 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted 4easy to defeat if scouted: no i never posted a game with proxy gates in the nat Ok. I'll admit that proxy in their base is rather weird situation. But lets look at it this way. 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: yes, unconventional, but still yes, I would be surprised as fuck if it happens to me. 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: Not applicable 4easy to defeat if scouted: no Excluding the NA category, thats a 66%, thats barely passing (maybe not in some places) but its enough for a diplomat in high school. So something that fulfills this following statement is cheese? Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise**. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.**where the condition of surprising the opponent can be fulfilled by doing everything fully within his vision That is why I created this thread. To pick on these little details. Save your argument for now, I'll be more specific by stating not in your opponent's base. But you did read why stork would of lost if it wasn't on plasma right? And I don't agree with you. I think we could come to a satisfactory conclusion with a replay, but since there isn't one available I don't think you can really prove it either way. Not only that, the map without the eggs would be an entire different story anyway.
Well that build was map specific anyway. Stork with his great builds already planned it all out. If it wasn't on plasma, he would of probably put more into this build. But there must also be a reason why its so rarely used. But as I said, save this for later. Discuss whether proxy 2 gate from halfway and beyond in pvp is a cheese or not.
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I would be surprised if someone could come up with an argument, besides the special case I brought up, as to why proxy gates from halfway and beyond aren't cheese.
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I'm sorry, I think this thread isn't very good...
How about 2gate is cheese if it is proxied ok good? Next topic, perhaps an easier one like 5 pool double sunken rush on a 2 player map?
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Op, you are the one who raged so badly yesterday at OSL Ro8, because Flash and Shine won, one by cheesing, the other one by using a feature of the map?
I can't really take this thread seriously as you consider that cheese is gay and, if I understood correctly almost unlegit.
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On December 26 2009 17:31 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
I'm sorry, I think this thread isn't very good...
How about 2gate is cheese if it is proxied ok good? Next topic, perhaps an easier one like 5 pool double sunken rush on a 2 player map?
The whole object of this thread is to decide when you can nerd rage at your opponent and when you should kinda say gg because he didn't play "gay".
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Save time by honestly just taking some obvious ones as Cheese....
Proxy 2Gate
BBS
4-5 Pool
3 Hatch All-in Mass Ling
2 Hatch Hydra Bust vs Protoss FE
All-in Ling with Drone Drill
ANY 1 Hatch Zerg Build in ZvT or ZvP
Then there are debatable ones. The first list are builds I feel should be considered cheese. The second are builds I think shouldn't be considered cheese. These aren't 100% concrete (although some are pretty damn close) obvious such as a 4pool or BBS but a lot I'm nearly positive the community would vote as Cheese. Why not just set up a massive number of polls for all of these? Think the discussion will help that much?
Ones I Say YES It's Cheese
- Variations of 2 Fact vs Protoss
- DT Rush vs Terran
- DT Drop vs Terran
- Terran Deep 6 vs Protoss
- +1 1 Base Speedlot Timing Attack vs Zerg
- 2 Hatch Muta vs Protoss
- 2 Base Carrier vs Terran (one of my favorite protoss strategies, you have no idea how many times I've been called a fag or someone with no skill because carriers are the most "skill-less" unit in the entire game)
- Sparks Build
- Ayumi Build
- Any proxy facts/robos/hatches etc. Including Proxy Robo to elevator Toss units into Terran main
- 2 Hatch Lurker (and even more so with slow drop)
- 1 Gate Proxy by Protoss
- Protoss Bulldog vs Terran
- Speedling Runby vs Toss
Ones I Say NO It's Not Cheese
- 2 Port Wraith
- Builds like 12 Nex/14 CC/3 hatch before Pool
- +1 Speedlot Timing attack vs Zerg from FE
- Proxy 8 Rax into mech (may or may not bunker rush depending on Zerg BO).
- Manner Pylons
- Bunker rush vs 12 nex accompanied by 3-4 SCVs.
- Fantasy Build (dropship 4 vult in Zerg Main)
- Fake Mech
- 10/15 Gate vs Terran
- ANY Form of Gas Stealing
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On December 26 2009 20:42 FabledIntegral wrote:
Save time by honestly just taking some obvious ones as Cheese....
Proxy 2Gate
BBS
4-5 Pool
3 Hatch All-in Mass Ling
2 Hatch Hydra Bust vs Protoss FE
All-in Ling with Drone Drill
ANY 1 Hatch Zerg Build in ZvT or ZvP
Then there are debatable ones. The first list are builds I feel should be considered cheese. The second are builds I think shouldn't be considered cheese. These aren't 100% concrete (although some are pretty damn close) obvious such as a 4pool or BBS but a lot I'm nearly positive the community would vote as Cheese. Why not just set up a massive number of polls for all of these? Think the discussion will help that much?
Ones I Say YES It's Cheese
- Variations of 2 Fact vs Protoss
- DT Rush vs Terran
- DT Drop vs Terran
- Terran Deep 6 vs Protoss
- +1 1 Base Speedlot Timing Attack vs Zerg
- 2 Hatch Muta vs Protoss
- 2 Base Carrier vs Terran (one of my favorite protoss strategies, you have no idea how many times I've been called a fag or someone with no skill because carriers are the most "skill-less" unit in the entire game)
- Sparks Build
- Ayumi Build
- Any proxy facts/robos/hatches etc. Including Proxy Robo to elevator Toss units into Terran main
- 2 Hatch Lurker (and even more so with slow drop)
- 1 Gate Proxy by Protoss
- Protoss Bulldog vs Terran
- Speedling Runby vs Toss
Ones I Say NO It's Not Cheese
- 2 Port Wraith
- Builds like 12 Nex/14 CC/3 hatch before Pool
- +1 Speedlot Timing attack vs Zerg from FE
- Proxy 8 Rax into mech (may or may not bunker rush depending on Zerg BO).
- Manner Pylons
- Bunker rush vs 12 nex accompanied by 3-4 SCVs.
- Fantasy Build (dropship 4 vult in Zerg Main)
- Fake Mech
- 10/15 Gate vs Terran
- ANY Form of Gas Stealing
As you just saw, there was surprisingly a lot of debate on proxy 2 gate. So lets take this slowly.
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On December 26 2009 20:49 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 20:42 FabledIntegral wrote:
Save time by honestly just taking some obvious ones as Cheese....
Proxy 2Gate
BBS
4-5 Pool
3 Hatch All-in Mass Ling
2 Hatch Hydra Bust vs Protoss FE
All-in Ling with Drone Drill
ANY 1 Hatch Zerg Build in ZvT or ZvP
Then there are debatable ones. The first list are builds I feel should be considered cheese. The second are builds I think shouldn't be considered cheese. These aren't 100% concrete (although some are pretty damn close) obvious such as a 4pool or BBS but a lot I'm nearly positive the community would vote as Cheese. Why not just set up a massive number of polls for all of these? Think the discussion will help that much?
Ones I Say YES It's Cheese
- Variations of 2 Fact vs Protoss
- DT Rush vs Terran
- DT Drop vs Terran
- Terran Deep 6 vs Protoss
- +1 1 Base Speedlot Timing Attack vs Zerg
- 2 Hatch Muta vs Protoss
- 2 Base Carrier vs Terran (one of my favorite protoss strategies, you have no idea how many times I've been called a fag or someone with no skill because carriers are the most "skill-less" unit in the entire game)
- Sparks Build
- Ayumi Build
- Any proxy facts/robos/hatches etc. Including Proxy Robo to elevator Toss units into Terran main
- 2 Hatch Lurker (and even more so with slow drop)
- 1 Gate Proxy by Protoss
- Protoss Bulldog vs Terran
- Speedling Runby vs Toss
Ones I Say NO It's Not Cheese
- 2 Port Wraith
- Builds like 12 Nex/14 CC/3 hatch before Pool
- +1 Speedlot Timing attack vs Zerg from FE
- Proxy 8 Rax into mech (may or may not bunker rush depending on Zerg BO).
- Manner Pylons
- Bunker rush vs 12 nex accompanied by 3-4 SCVs.
- Fantasy Build (dropship 4 vult in Zerg Main)
- Fake Mech
- 10/15 Gate vs Terran
- ANY Form of Gas Stealing As you just saw, there was surprisingly a lot of debate on proxy 2 gate. So lets take this slowly.
Well I read the first page and a half and there was no debate and since the poll so far is 100% yes... I just figured.
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On December 26 2009 21:01 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 20:49 MuffinDude wrote:On December 26 2009 20:42 FabledIntegral wrote:
Save time by honestly just taking some obvious ones as Cheese....
Proxy 2Gate
BBS
4-5 Pool
3 Hatch All-in Mass Ling
2 Hatch Hydra Bust vs Protoss FE
All-in Ling with Drone Drill
ANY 1 Hatch Zerg Build in ZvT or ZvP
Then there are debatable ones. The first list are builds I feel should be considered cheese. The second are builds I think shouldn't be considered cheese. These aren't 100% concrete (although some are pretty damn close) obvious such as a 4pool or BBS but a lot I'm nearly positive the community would vote as Cheese. Why not just set up a massive number of polls for all of these? Think the discussion will help that much?
Ones I Say YES It's Cheese
- Variations of 2 Fact vs Protoss
- DT Rush vs Terran
- DT Drop vs Terran
- Terran Deep 6 vs Protoss
- +1 1 Base Speedlot Timing Attack vs Zerg
- 2 Hatch Muta vs Protoss
- 2 Base Carrier vs Terran (one of my favorite protoss strategies, you have no idea how many times I've been called a fag or someone with no skill because carriers are the most "skill-less" unit in the entire game)
- Sparks Build
- Ayumi Build
- Any proxy facts/robos/hatches etc. Including Proxy Robo to elevator Toss units into Terran main
- 2 Hatch Lurker (and even more so with slow drop)
- 1 Gate Proxy by Protoss
- Protoss Bulldog vs Terran
- Speedling Runby vs Toss
Ones I Say NO It's Not Cheese
- 2 Port Wraith
- Builds like 12 Nex/14 CC/3 hatch before Pool
- +1 Speedlot Timing attack vs Zerg from FE
- Proxy 8 Rax into mech (may or may not bunker rush depending on Zerg BO).
- Manner Pylons
- Bunker rush vs 12 nex accompanied by 3-4 SCVs.
- Fantasy Build (dropship 4 vult in Zerg Main)
- Fake Mech
- 10/15 Gate vs Terran
- ANY Form of Gas Stealing As you just saw, there was surprisingly a lot of debate on proxy 2 gate. So lets take this slowly. Well I read the first page and a half and there was no debate and since the poll so far is 100% yes... I just figured.
Thats because I changed the situation... twice.
Just think of this as a long term project.
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That's almost as silly as the 165465 thread about some jackass being bonjwa or not.
If you listen Koreans pro in interview, they don't talk about "gay cheese", but about "prepared strategies".
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On December 26 2009 21:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That's almost as silly as the 165465 thread about some jackass being bonjwa or not.
If you listen Koreans pro in interview, they don't talk about "gay cheese", but about "prepared strategies".
They're professionals. Maybe they don't call it "gay cheese" because people will look down upon these pros? This is more of a thing to clear up what cheeses are and what isn't, because we tend to have these kinds of arguments often.
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PS the Proxy gates in main is VERY easily countered by not letting your opponent manner pylon you. The entire build relies on manner pylon because it forces the probes to go around and mine from the back... which is where the gates are. Insanely inefficient mining and it allows much easier sniping by zealots.
Best wasn't prepared for hte strat - he blocked the intial manner pylon but didn't block the second attepmt - a very feasible task. He also should have two gated but didn't. He also easily could have taken out the seocnd pylon but went back to mining. It was more inexperience at handling the situation imo than anything else. Just like progamers had a ton of inexperience handling Terran mech when it was repopularized.
PS. Who cares? No one is going to argue it wasn't cheese, are they?
And who the hell is to say the definition on Liquipedia, a friggin' WIKI that anyone can edit, is the accurate description? It also says "in general," which means "not applicable to all circumstances."
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On December 26 2009 21:08 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 21:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That's almost as silly as the 165465 thread about some jackass being bonjwa or not.
If you listen Koreans pro in interview, they don't talk about "gay cheese", but about "prepared strategies". They're professionals. Maybe they don't call it "gay cheese" because people will look down upon these pros? This is more of a thing to clear up what cheeses are and what isn't, because we tend to have these kinds of arguments often.
Giving fuel to nerd rage is not such a noble objective. Imo.
Your thread is judgemental, and therefore doesn't have any value. As little values as all theses discussions about wether Luxury is "cheesy" (means bad and gay) or not when he plays agressive.
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it depends on map and mu.
noobs calls cheese anything that kills them tho.
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On December 26 2009 19:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2009 17:31 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
I'm sorry, I think this thread isn't very good...
How about 2gate is cheese if it is proxied ok good? Next topic, perhaps an easier one like 5 pool double sunken rush on a 2 player map? The whole object of this thread is to decide when you can nerd rage at your opponent and when you should kinda say gg because he didn't play "gay".
lol it's not the cheeser's fault that his opponent can't scout PROPERLY.
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Dictionary: (informal) of a solution to a problem, inelegant, showing no skill
It's not called "cheese" because that sounds similar to cheats xD
I think the following defines cheese:
1) you commit to it before scouting (so it's impossible that you are reacting to the opponent's weakness)
2) easy to stop when scouted, so you rely on surprise
3) all-in, if stopped you lose (you aren't actually doing a viable build)
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EPT
