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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 26 2009 08:24 MorroW[MB] wrote: why is there so much talk about cheese? Agreed. This is pointless semantics. Lets talk about how to pull it off, and how to defend it, not what to call it. We use the word 'cheese' to describe a non-standard opening. Can we not leave it at that? | ||
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Phrujbaz
Netherlands512 Posts
1) Non-standard build 2) that you have to commit to before scouting the opponent 3) and relies on the element of surprise to work (if scouted you are at a huge disadvantage) | ||
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dasanivan
United States532 Posts
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
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itsme
Canada46 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On December 26 2009 08:22 MuffinDude wrote: What how? If it fails you lose a gateway and a pylon. Thats huge. Opponent must cut alot of probes. you dont. you can tech a shitton faster than he can. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 26 2009 13:04 Chen wrote: Opponent must cut alot of probes. you dont. you can tech a shitton faster than he can. And have no gateways to use the tech on? On December 26 2009 09:06 tree.hugger wrote: Agreed. This is pointless semantics. Lets talk about how to pull it off, and how to defend it, not what to call it. We use the word 'cheese' to describe a non-standard opening. Can we not leave it at that? I made this because there is so much dispute over whether the build is actually a cheese or not. Why can't we just sort of identify builds as cheese so the pointless discussion will end. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 26 2009 13:35 MuffinDude wrote: And have no gateways to use the tech on? ok, you clearly haven't watched enough games to say that | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 26 2009 14:11 Fontong wrote: ok, you clearly haven't watched enough games to say that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfJvAQc3dg8& Thats way too map specific. Try that on a map besides plasma and I'll guarantee you'll fail. There will always be an exception to the rules. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 26 2009 14:42 MuffinDude wrote: Thats way too map specific. Try that on a map besides plasma and I'll guarantee you'll fail. There will always be an exception to the rules. yeah bisu failed in this game didnt he | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 26 2009 15:03 Fontong wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIs5HS_oMxU yeah bisu failed in this game didnt he Sigh. Bunch of retards. I didn't write it properly, but I meant if the 2 gate if fended off then stork would of been fucked on any other map besides plasma. The point of cheese is that if it works you win, and it worked for bisu. Can we get back on track now discussing whether 2 gate is a cheese. Its because of retards like you that we get off track so easily, going what about this. Well what about this. There will always be an exception so live with it. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 26 2009 15:18 MuffinDude wrote: Sigh. Bunch of retards. I didn't write it properly, but I meant if the 2 gate if fended off then stork would of been fucked on any other map besides plasma. The point of cheese is that if it works you win, and it worked for bisu. Can we get back on track now discussing whether 2 gate is a cheese. Its because of retards like you that we get off track so easily, going what about this. Well what about this. There will always be an exception so live with it. I see that you have given up defending your position and have instead resorted to calling me a retard. Did you even watch Best vs Stork? Stork already had a gate and zealots in base by the time the cheese had been fended off. He also had a core finished and the robotics going up. Stop pulling shit out of your ass and actually watch the games. | ||
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nebffa
Australia776 Posts
Sigh. Bunch of retards. I didn't write it properly, but I meant if the 2 gate if fended off then stork would of been fucked on any other map besides plasma. The point of cheese is that if it works you win, and it worked for bisu. Can we get back on track now discussing whether 2 gate is a cheese. Its because of retards like you that we get off track so easily, going what about this. Well what about this. There will always be an exception so live with it. ooo settle grettel. but guys... come on. TWO gates, PROXIED in your OPPONENTS MAIN. thats cheese. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 26 2009 15:39 Fontong wrote: I see that you have given up defending your position and have instead resorted to calling me a retard. Did you even watch Best vs Stork? Stork already had a gate and zealots in base by the time the cheese had been fended off. He also had a core finished and the robotics going up. Stop pulling shit out of your ass and actually watch the games. I did watch the game and I can easily determine if the lurker eggs weren't there best would of rolled over stork with a bigger zealot army and a slightly better zealot production. Now I will analyze the game for you since you don't believe me. @5:54, I can easily call this economic disruption as dead. Why? Because stork had one almost dead zealot and no pylons supplying energy to the gateways. Here, best had 4 zealots and stork was just warping in a cybernetics core and a gateway. Now if the lurker eggs weren't there and even if we extend the rushing distance to about HBR's, best can pull off 3 zealot to stork's base, having one zealot chase down that already dead zealot and then proceed to kill the gateways, and stork might be able to make one zealot from the gateway. Best with 3 zealot and 2 gateways to work with would of easily broke into stork's base and rip shit up. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 26 2009 15:39 nebffa wrote: ooo settle grettel. but guys... come on. TWO gates, PROXIED in your OPPONENTS MAIN. thats cheese. From OP: As for the definition of cheese, I will take the definition of cheese from liquidpedia which is - "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." After this is done, hopefully the list can go into liquidpedia. Proxy gates in minline/main: Highly unconventional: yes Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted easy to defeat if scouted: no so proxy gates right next to the opponent in their own base get a 25% on the cheese definition. That's an F no matter where you are. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 26 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote: From OP: As for the definition of cheese, I will take the definition of cheese from liquidpedia which is - "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is nearly impossible to defeat if it is not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted." After this is done, hopefully the list can go into liquidpedia. Proxy gates in minline/main: Highly unconventional: yes Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted easy to defeat if scouted: no so proxy gates right next to the opponent in their own base get a 25% on the cheese definition. That's an F no matter where you are. I refute you here. First of all Proxy gates in minline/main: Highly unconventional: yes Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted easy to defeat if scouted: no A. Thats 3 things you listed and you gave it a 25% based on cheese definition. You can't get 25% with 3 things, maybe 33.33% or 66.67%, but not 25%. B. It is relatively easy to defeat if scouted. PJ v stork in like 2007 WCG i think, stork proxy 2 gate in pj's nat, pj scouted it and won the game. Defending it really depends on the skill. If they're even on skill, I'd say you should be able to win since you got probes and shit on your side. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 26 2009 15:52 MuffinDude wrote: I refute you here. First of all A. Thats 3 things you listed and you gave it a 25% based on cheese definition. You can't get 25% with 3 things, maybe 33.33% or 66.67%, but not 25%. B. It is relatively easy to defeat if scouted. PJ v stork in like 2007 WCG i think, stork proxy 2 gate in pj's nat, pj scouted it and won the game. Defending it really depends on the skill. If they're even on skill, I'd say you should be able to win since you got probes and shit on your side. Proxy gates in minline/main: 1Highly unconventional: yes 2Take opponent by surprise: only because it is unconventional 3impossible to defeat if not scouted: this doesn't even apply for the games i posted 4easy to defeat if scouted: no i never posted a game with proxy gates in the nat | ||
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