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Hmm I think that you scout it with your first pair of scourge as your second pair kills the first corsair and the third pair kills the second corsair if there is one. If you see no citadel and see more than one goon it's pretty obvious. Actually, if you don't see it with your overlord in main you should be getting suspicious. A Dragoon won't be out before a citadel should be built.
Calm reacted vs it pretty well and was able to defend against it quite effortlessly even though he still powered drones for a while longer than actually is necessary for the build. Afterwards he decided to go for mass hydras, yes, but he very well could have decided to go for the third gas, the min only, and made a few rounds of drones instead. That is completely irrelevant if we're talking about being able to defend against this build.
Afterwards, you will have quite a bit of excess gas, so after you make those drones after holding off the attack, I believe that it might be a good idea to go for a double or triple evo hydraling with most of your gas going into scourge to combat the corsairs. The P's HTs will be so late that I have serious doubts about him being able to hold an army of Hydraling off.
Another thing worth noting is that the Zerg should actually go for an early +1 carapace instead of a +1 ranged attack if they scout this build, simply because it transitions so much better into the Hydraling play with quick adrenaline glands. I'm not sure if the Z can scout the P early enough, though. Maybe delay the evo chamber if you see no early citadel, and decide on the upgrade when your scourge arrive at his base? Things to consider.
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It would be nice if you played vs it before talking out your ass about it.
You won't have 18 hydras.
You shouldn't really kill 2/3 of the first sairs or the toss is just dead.
You don't always see a citadel as a lot of good tosses put citadels by natural cannons and zergs like to keep overlords to watch for unit movement in and out (probe denying) rather than exploring every inch of a typical FE.
And a 2nd overlord probably won't be flying to the natural and suiciding. And it's not unusual to see one goon and never see a citadel at all.
Your sim city will (90%+) be built to handle speed zealots of some sort giving misplaced sunkens.
Yeah I know... I'd love to have clairvoyance playing SC too. I bet I'd be real good.
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On December 20 2009 17:19 SuperJongMan wrote:
It would be nice if you played vs it before talking out your ass about it.
You won't have 18 hydras.
You shouldn't really kill 2/3 of the first sairs or the toss is just dead.
You don't always see a citadel as a lot of good tosses put citadels by natural cannons and zergs like to keep overlords to watch for unit movement in and out (probe denying) rather than exploring every inch of a typical FE.
And a 2nd overlord probably won't be flying to the natural and suiciding. And it's not unusual to see one goon and never see a citadel at all.
Your sim city will (90%+) be built to handle speed zealots of some sort giving misplaced sunkens.
Yeah I know... I'd love to have clairvoyance playing SC too. I bet I'd be real good.
Oh I meant right click to the sairs =S you will most likely be able to flank with your scouting scourge if you can patrol properly, so you should kill one.
18 Hydras at 7:40 is actually quite behind the normal, go try it. in a vacuum 1v1 with a computer starting with overpool and getting 12 lings, you have 12 hydras at about 7:10, like 18 at maybe 7:20-25. A few less lings and taking some harrass into account, ta-da. Even if it's not 18 it's close.
Oh they put citadel at nat? Well I don't think that's too common, but even so I'd still be cautious and proceed as stated. Normally I have my overlord in main while my other overlord at nat goes around the FE searching for buildings as my lings deny the probes, although I tend to keep the forge in my vision. I guess other people do it differently. I haven't really encountered citadels in nat like ever, though. Stargates are a lot more common.
Also, well the timing for Citadel is way before a goon. Stargate goes up as soon as core is done, this is also when a Dragoon starts. A citadel is placed way before the goon is done. If it's not placed, I get suspicious. Everyone else should, as well. Seriously, would you scout the P not getting a citadel and go "Oh, it's in his natural min line"?
Sunken placement I agree with, but that will naturally change if the Z adapts.
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In a vacuum vs a comp, you won't lose a single overlord, won't waste any scourges etc... while an actual opponant will already have tried to slow you down a few times by the time the attack is coming. If you can barely squeeze out 15 hydras by 7:30 vs comp, with sairs, harass, etc it's even less likely 15 will be out. Especially with your aggressive scouting overlords, the chances of you losing 2 are even higher and then getting 18 hydras seems incredibly optimistic.
Don't forget the attack timing can be as soon as 3-4 dragoons with 5-6 just popping out.
When the scourges see it (3gate goon), it's already on it's way giving you about 30 seconds to react, enough yes, but probably the reaction will be deviating from your regular management and slow you down. Something not easy for P's nowadays. The defensive reaction poses no immediate threat to the protoss as he now increases his macro and tech and starts to truly ride the double nexus adv.
Citadel is placed at naturals often because that is also where robotics are placed (Hydra D) and we all know robos have to be put upfront to be useful. And yes, this location is hard to scout with cannons and all. And even if you know citadel timing, it takes a certain kind of brave hero toss to simply plop it down right under the overlord showing you the timing. He has pylongs at 2 locations. You have 2 overlords..
Anyways enough for tonight. I'm really stoned and I hope I make sense.
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On December 20 2009 11:54 SuperJongMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 07:58 ProoM wrote:
Looks like ZvP is getting even more imbalanced ;// (seriously, ZvP is so fucking hard >.> ).
Oh wait lol, my +1 speedlot counter build, counters this one perfectly too!! Awsome! How? The two builds have timings over a minute apart... and both require different unit composition.... ... ...or maybe that's why ZvP is hard... ~_~
"- Send out dragoons and sairs, usually around 6 (6:50) or 9 (7:25) goons and 3-4 sairs."
+1 speedlot attack comes out at about 6:50-6:55.
The build I created counters both of these perfectly while having even a better economy than 5 hatch hydra's. Don't really want to talk about it's details yet, because I'm not ready to publish it  .
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6:50 10speedlots +2lots
6:50 2z/6goon +3goon&range
Both no +1, and constant sair.
Now, I am protoss and know these are asap timings from ccnexus start.
But I'm not zerg, and while I know basics dont feel comfortable doing optimized timings, and dont want to speak to exact counts. Nonetheless, until zergs are clear about the builds they are using to achieve what timing, my thoughts are bellow.
I tend to agree that Zerg can have enough ling/sunk, or enough hydra, or your lurk/muta tech fast enough to deal with both kinds of asap attack after sair (speedlot or range goon). But, I think what this means is that you are doing an asap timing build yourself based on build plan of 3hat spire 5hat. Travel distance ends up being a bitch for Protoss. But it should be noted that many zerg don't do asap builds plans, either because of inefficiency and/or wanting to mass, say, >30 drones mining first.
As mentioned, most zergs will not know that you are going for a asap strong attack after sair. If they scout well the best they have are suspicious. This is a case where protoss should be able to get a better read than his opponent. What this means is that zerg is doing their response build a bit blind to what protoss decides to do. Now, sure, they may do a lower eco asap build plan that has enough stuff to deal with these attacks sufficiently that they come out ahead, or they may not.
Because the success of these two asap attacks after sair seem to largely depend on how your zerg opponent decide to play, sadly, it seems that just playing a straight macro long game is the best option now-a-days.
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You'd be surprised how easily Ols can fall if scourges can't get to sairs easily.
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Wow, I'll try this right now.
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i feel like u're trying to sell bullshit with all those exclamation marks, like an internet get rich scheme.
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Why do you guys think this is incapable of getting into a fast 3rd gas smoothly?
Who's actually played it with something to say?
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This guide is fucking amazing, I play zerg and I know for a fact that I would lose to this the first time someone played it against me.
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On December 21 2009 08:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
Why do you guys think this is incapable of getting into a fast 3rd gas smoothly?
Who's actually played it with something to say?
Still waiting on a reply to this before I give this a shot:
On December 20 2009 14:31 Salv wrote:
Interesting guide, always nice to see a [G] post with SuperJongMan. I am tempted to give this a try, but I have been having good success with the speedlot / corsair opening.
SuperJongMan, if a Protoss is having success with the other build, would you suggest switching to this one instead? Is it simply a better/more flexible timing attack? Does this make the previous speed-zeal timing ineffective in comparison? Thanks.
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On December 20 2009 01:45 Knickknack wrote:+ Show Spoiler +8p-scout, 11forge, 14cc, 16nexus, 16gate, 16p, 17assim, 19z, 21core, 22z, 28stargate, goon, 32p, 2ndgas, 34goon, sair,
then 2xgate+range asap as soon as scout is out of range
@7:15 assuming 2gate asap: 2zealot/9goon/4sair ~70psi.
*you could delay deciding to go for range or citadel until sair scouts, but that would add on a good 30seconds, then range would complete a bit after you arrived at zerg base.
*can also go core asap with only 1zealot for bit faster goon.
The timing looks good to me...well its the best that can be expected.
Main thing I see is this is a timing attack, but does not have to deal with the nasty simcity+lings+sunk+drone like zealots due to range.
The second thing is that zerg cant really scout that you are doing this...well they can scout that you have no citadel/robo which is suspicious of course, but many zerg don't stay around so long and sacrifice ovie.
Still, I'm not sure if its worth it.
By 7:15 a well done 5hat spire build should have (go look at mondragon reps for instance) 12speedling, 2sunk, 2creep.
and by the time you arrive 2sunk at each base and 24speedlings.
And how fast they have tech just depends on how much they emphasize it over drones.
Is this force big enough to win over 24 lings, especially when pincered in front of Z's nat?
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Thanks SJM! Now teach us how to lose vs a 12 hatching zerg while going proxy 9/9 gate on dest =D I keeeeed. Nicely written guy. This build has a lot of weaknesses of course but if executed properly and against the right build it can be extremely effective. The key is knowing when to use it(looking for signs/predicting heavy muta commitment).
It has problems switching into a third simply because the commitment of gas to gas heavy units like goons/sairs instead mixing in more zeals mean you will most likely not have enough templar later on,when youre trying to set up your third, to possibly fight against a pumping 3 base 5 hatch zerg. At least in my expierence when I would try a gas heavy 3 gas 4 hatch muta and toss counters with goon/sair heavy build they either destroy me in the first big attack or lose trying to set up their third if I manage to fight it off. If zerg is not going muta and instead is going pure ling/hydra with a lower drone count you made a big mistake trying this build
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Its really tough controlling the sair at the same time as goons T_T
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This has shown up in a few pro games lately. I can't help but point out that if the Zerg forgoes mutas and opts for mass hydra, you're stuck waiting on a 3rd far longer than is affordable with your delayed temp tech 
I've tried this build, as I've tried every build I've seen in pro games, after working out the probe cuts in single player to replicate their timings, and when Z just makes 4 scourge and starts hydra right away, they have more than double your army count before you have storm. Unless they are lazy on watching your third you will not get it when you need it. Being forced into an 8 gate play with your gas spent in a less than optimal way for that style is not pleasant at all.
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SJM, do you have any idea why Kal went +1 Armour after getting +1 Attack? I find this deviation from the standard pattern intriguing and was wondering if that was part of the CoDra build as well.
Also, how does this compare to the Forge FE into 2 Gate SpeedZeal build? Protoss have had some success with that build and I thought it was going to be the future standard PvZ metagame, but after seeing this, I am no longer certain .
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Because +2 attack requires a templar archives, and I don't think his citadel was even started when +1 finished.
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On December 24 2009 14:50 Louder wrote:This has shown up in a few pro games lately. I can't help but point out that if the Zerg forgoes mutas and opts for mass hydra, you're stuck waiting on a 3rd far longer than is affordable with your delayed temp tech I've tried this build, as I've tried every build I've seen in pro games, after working out the probe cuts in single player to replicate their timings, and when Z just makes 4 scourge and starts hydra right away, they have more than double your army count before you have storm. Unless they are lazy on watching your third you will not get it when you need it. Being forced into an 8 gate play with your gas spent in a less than optimal way for that style is not pleasant at all.
protoss with less than optimal Templar numbers
i like this strategy! <3
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damn that Kal game had me wincing when zerg lost hatchery. I was like "oooouuch..."
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EPT
