Crashing through the sky! Comes A fearful cry! CODRA! CODRA!
A look at Corsair Dragoon vs Neo Sauron - Co(rsair) dra(goon)
They adapted past 4gate 2archon. They rediscovered the disgusting overwhelming power of the hydralisk. They had us resort to cheap tricks and quick desperate zealot attempts to stand a chance. They simply laughed and mastered their sim cities. They scourged our shuttles, raped our probes, swarmed our nexuses, plagued our goons... They humiliated us with their mutas, murdered countless templar. Rolled us... buttered us over. But wipe away those protoss tears brothers. Here, have a kleenex. It's payback time.
CODRA~~~ CODRA~~~
It's a pretty good all-purpose build, although like with everything PvZ, once it becomes predicted/predictable you stand 0 chance of winning with it... so be careful and don't let the overlord see too much!! THEN DRAW FIRST BLOOD!!!
ONE! The Opening Build- Meow.
1 - Double Nexus - Core *It is crucial to get the 1st goon asap to clear the overlord. You don't want to wait for your corsair either cuz he has to scouting to do asap. *While zealots are really nice to have in the push, it's better the zerg doesn't know you are gonna goon him... up the butt.
2 - Stargate - Nat Gas - Probe Pause + 2gates - Pylon - Goon Range *You can opt for +1 at the end of this sequence, but do not compromise the dragoon timing in anyway.
3 - Corsair Goon Pump. *Make sure it's steady even at the cost of probes. (!!!) *Prioritize Goon/Sair/Probe in that order until the first group is ready. TWO! The Attack- Corsairs go zewzewzewzew
1 - The corsair will be dictating what your next few steps will be.
*If the Zerg has 24+ speedolings or 4 hatch raw hydrar... GOD! What a bastard. - Rush up a Citadel and Archives and let your corsairs harass and slow him down. - Don't bother being too aggresive with goons at this point. Diverting drone funds is good for us. - Move on with constructing the hanbang
*If the zerg has managed some other way (Paula Dean Zergs!) - Send out dragoons and sairs, usually around 6 (6:50) or 9 (7:25) goons and 3-4 sairs. - Pick apart sim cities!!! This is not an attack force the zerg can easily handle. - You can confidently pressure anything with less than 3 sunkens.
2 - There will always be somewhere zerg is prone at this timing. - Mass Lings can stop the goons but not the sairs. - Mass Hydra - Still enough time before enough hydras gather to do damage somewhere. - When hydras and lings press, take the chance for corsairs to do damage and buy time. THREE! The Post Attack- You must construct additional pylons.
1 - When you feel the zerg has put up adequate and solid D, * Put up a citadel + archives and additional gates (6). * From the gateways, instead of dragoons, pump zealot templar. * Just like ANY PvZ build, lose your first units and lose the game.
2 - Get zealot speed asap and as gas allows, storm and templar. * This is your hanbang composition. Dragoon Zealot Templar, like the old days.
3 - Prepare to fight your way through a sea of hydralisks. * Seas of hydras... Waves and Waves. Nightmarish yes, but it comes with the territory. Strong Points -
*The goon sair timing is much faster than you'd expect. It pokes faster than dragoon archon pokes. It is also not stopped so easily as speed zealots are by sim city + drills. It's also faster. (A fuckn build I told you nabs about +9 fuckn months ago!!! Only to see it being discussed now after being dismissed as weak, omg the nerve of these fuckn noobs)
*To see it from the zerg's perspective - when he's about about to make many scourges to deny your corsairs, the goon sair will already be on its way to bring the ruckus. Bring da mother, BRING DA MOTHER FUCKN RUCKUS.
*Without lings and hydras and a reasonable amount of sunkens, the zerg can't block this attack. Ever. The Zerg isn't allowed to fat whore himself and the unit production only makes him poorer.
*While skipping probes for units early on does take away from the explosive macro a normal double-nexus has, we can run gatewayses and nexuseses simultaneously afterwards to make up the loss. The economic damage and annoyance to zerg is well worth the price of a few unmade probes.
*Another plus is that after the initial FE, there is no need for additional cannons (although I suggest one by main/stargate). When scourges will be poppin' sairs before critical mass, go to dragoons for support. It is very possible to go cannon-free after the double nexus til 3rd.
*All that said, the actual strongest point of this build is that the zerg is only given one option - Mass Hydralisks. The goon/sair really prevents mutas and lurkers from having good effect. The Zerg has to get hydras to fend off the goon/sair and then as the zealots and templar start coming in, the situation should only improve for toss. Weaknesses -
* Let the enemy figure that out -_-;; But watch out for 2-3 hatch hydra.. cuz like.. fuckn duh! 2-3 Hatch All In can easily > FE builds. The best part about this build is its supreme flexibility. Since Protoss gets to draw the blade first against a 5 hatch neo-sauron, it's a nice change of pace for once. Also the ball is halfway constructed with the dragoon base already present.
From here, grab a third and robo and blah blah, macro wars etc. This stuff hasn't changed since forever. Go and get your third base, cover it and "just sit there hurling imbalanced shit" at the zerg with sair/shuttle safely, get the ball rollin (even easier since we opened goon anyways).
But dude!!! the game ended up with Best losing his min natural... What? O, I know I know.. But we can justify it! Here! Listen to the excuses!
Dohsairs!!! - They did no damage and simply ended up getting super scourged! Best also expanded off 4 gate and traded away storms for way more gwoons. He had a heavier opening focus with sairs but those weren't corsairs... those be dohsairs. Clam also cut drones for power hydra, his 3rd had 7 drones and 0 on gas, and he put the game on the line for Best's third... But seeing the game should at least give you an idea of how the games should turn out/flow.
Also, Kal vs Saint MSL ro16 day2 on Ultimatum!! He played the build for me today =). What a nice guy. He played it pretty textbook. As soon as the VOD comes up, I'll link it. + Show Spoiler +
Get your zerg garbage out of here!!! The song was composed for corsair dragoons. It obviously says Codra, not coldra. Gotta work on your aural skillz yo~.
And this is srs. bznz. We talkin bout killin ALIENZ.
I have been trying a goon build lately, but this has what mine was missing. More corsairs. I cant believe I missed that important(and seemingly obvious) addition. 3-4 sairs killing ovies will make it so much easier for my goons.
You get 6 goons at ~6:50, 9 goons at ~7:25. Takes about 30 seconds to walk across a map, give or take. Pick your timings. On a map with a far 3rd like Heartbreak, 9 goons. On a map with closer thirds you can go with 6.
A lot of the effectiveness comes with making the zerg deal with both sairs and goons. It's an awkward unit combo for the zerg to deal with at the time if they made a # of scourge.
It seems very powerful but just 1 question from a Terran player.
Can the Zerg get lurkers in time to stop this attack? (Assuming 3 hatch spire, 5 hatch hydra)
It seems like the robotics will be a bit late considering your focus would be stargate, gateways citadel but no observers. I would like to know the possibility. Thanks.
The timing is impossible for a 5 hatch zerg to get lurkers attacking you before your goons are already out around the map. Also, going lurker means the corsairs will hurt so much more than if the zerg had gone hydra. The earlier you leave with goons the more effective your attack is, although it's the earliest stages when this build is most prone to chogoling rape.
In a worst case scenario, I guess you would be shooting at eggs at their base in which case I'd probably hurry up and secure my 3rd with cannons and get a robo and temps. I wouldn't even bother getting gateways/speed/zealots for now.
Rely on your sairs to buy you time for a safe cannons up 3rd. Shuttle templar to lurker break? Standard right?
The scariest thing is getting your goons surrounded and losing the game to lings/scourge.. lol. But if you can neutralize the scourge and leave the zerg with a ton of lings, he is fucked himself. And if you have sairs, why are you getting caught by ling ambushes you dirty noob? Filthy.
So in short, during the attack, if you can forcibly disrupt his drone timing, +. If you do no damage and get stopped by ling lurker sunken or whatever and no drone cutting, -
I guess on a map where if zerg defends one location they get 4 gas, it is sorta imperative to force a bit of damage, like on Fighting Spirit, but to be honest, I haven't played any new maps and this build isn't the best destination build. And I'd guess you could cut the zealot follow up (only for one cycle) to get the nexus and such up faster.
I dunno.. I'm sure other P players have insight into this stuff too. The key here is to cut probes early on to really force the zerg to quit being such a fatty.
- Actually... they might be able to squeeze lurkers out going lurker first actually ...But then there are corsairs...
8p-scout, 11forge, 14cc, 16nexus, 16gate, 16p, 17assim, 19z, 21core, 22z, 28stargate, goon, 32p, 2ndgas, 34goon, sair, then 2xgate+range asap as soon as scout is out of range @7:15 assuming 2gate asap: 2zealot/9goon/4sair ~70psi. *you could delay deciding to go for range or citadel until sair scouts, but that would add on a good 30seconds, then range would complete a bit after you arrived at zerg base. *can also go core asap with only 1zealot for bit faster goon.
The timing looks good to me...well its the best that can be expected. Main thing I see is this is a timing attack, but does not have to deal with the nasty simcity+lings+sunk+drone like zealots due to range. The second thing is that zerg cant really scout that you are doing this...well they can scout that you have no citadel/robo which is suspicious of course, but many zerg don't stay around so long and sacrifice ovie.
Still, I'm not sure if its worth it. By 7:15 a well done 5hat spire build should have (go look at mondragon reps for instance) 12speedling, 2sunk, 2creep. and by the time you arrive 2sunk at each base and 24speedlings. And how fast they have tech just depends on how much they emphasize it over drones.
I really enjoy your guides Soyu. You know how to make good strategy posts about the very latest tendencies and the new fashion protoss build orders. Also i like how you write your guides because they are never boring to read.
CODRa yO !
I will try this build although my sair micro sucks so bad that i know it will be a complete failure :p
On December 20 2009 01:45 Knickknack wrote: 8p-scout, 11forge, 14cc, 16nexus, 16gate, 16p, 17assim, 19z, 21core, 22z, 28stargate, goon, 32p, 2ndgas, 34goon, sair, then 2xgate+range asap as soon as scout is out of range @7:15 assuming 2gate asap: 2zealot/9goon/4sair ~70psi. *you could delay deciding to go for range or citadel until sair scouts, but that would add on a good 30seconds, then range would complete a bit after you arrived at zerg base. *can also go core asap with only 1zealot for bit faster goon.
The timing looks good to me...well its the best that can be expected. Main thing I see is this is a timing attack, but does not have to deal with the nasty simcity+lings+sunk+drone like zealots due to range. The second thing is that zerg cant really scout that you are doing this...well they can scout that you have no citadel/robo which is suspicious of course, but many zerg don't stay around so long and sacrifice ovie.
Still, I'm not sure if its worth it. By 7:15 a well done 5hat spire build should have (go look at mondragon reps for instance) 12speedling, 2sunk, 2creep. and by the time you arrive 2sunk at each base and 24speedlings. And how fast they have tech just depends on how much they emphasize it over drones.
Thx for srs thought!!
Those 2 sunkens have to be placed for dragoons. Oftentimes it will be two sunkens that don't support each other optimally to fight dragoons. Usually they involve evos and dens in front for sim city, easy targets for ranged goons, especially if he has to engage into us running with lings. Have sairs keep vigil over flanks and goon movement smooth, if nothing else, we can force more lings from him before retreating, and that is never bad. The lings are fightable and if we can trim it down and force him to make more, corsairs only get stronger.
If nothing else, it's still flexible enough to apply pressure and get 3 gas without falling behind, not to mention half of your hanbang is already with you.
And I would never slow down the rush playing mind games with the cyber. Just let it spin. He doesn't know if its +1 air or range, how is he gonna know?
On December 20 2009 07:58 ProoM wrote: Looks like ZvP is getting even more imbalanced ;// (seriously, ZvP is so fucking hard >.> ).
Oh wait lol, my +1 speedlot counter build, counters this one perfectly too!! Awsome!
How? The two builds have timings over a minute apart... and both require different unit composition.... ... ...or maybe that's why ZvP is hard... ~_~
I read through the thread, but i didn't see any mention on when you should pick up range? I'm in between zerg/toss right now but I still want to try this out. Unless it really screws up the amount of goons, it seems like range would help a ton getting past sim cities, and you need it against lurkers right? Always ready to try out new builds, even if I'm not great. Things like this keep me playing ^_^
i raped him so badly with speedlings and scourges into drop play... he was just d+ tho btw if i haven't had read this thread before i would have probably got owned
Hmmm. 9 goons arrive at the Z base at around 7:30-7:40 I guess. At this timing, the Zerg generally should have way over 12 hydras, probably 18, unless he droned heavily at the start. It's also likely that he'll have about 12 Zerglings, although 8 might be more likely. He also should have one sunken per base at this point.
I think that this might work for a while until the Zergs become familiar with this, but it shouldn't be that difficult to stop with just the normal, standard build as long as you don't drone like crazy early on. After you crush their 9 goon army with ~18 Hydras, you can actually drone at least 2 if not 3 rounds and most likely take a fourth base if it's not too far away.
Well, need to see how it works out in practice but this doesn't seem like a completely standard build that will work even if the opponent sees it coming(which is the case with the Z's 3h spire 5h hydra for instance).
Interesting guide, always nice to see a [G] post with SuperJongMan. I am tempted to give this a try, but I have been having good success with the speedlot / corsair opening.
SuperJongMan, if a Protoss is having success with the other build, would you suggest switching to this one instead? Is it simply a better/more flexible timing attack? Does this make the previous speed-zeal timing ineffective in comparison? Thanks.
Oh 7:30-7:40. Just a typo, typed that while thinking of the correct time though so don't mind it!
Oh and just for the record, at about 9:30 Zerg will have 48-54 hydras with mutas hatching or lurker researching so it should have been obvious it was a typo. =P
What do you mean? well assuming a normal overpool into double expand with early 6->8 lings the Z will have that amount of hydras at that time unless he screws up. Should I say that Zerg should be at a bit over 60 supply instead? What does it matter?
In the case of 9pool it's like 15 secs later, in the case of 12hatch it's about that amount earlier. Z really can't be late with sending most of his drones mining though.
In the game with Kal vs Saint Saint made mutas, which is horribad vs this. Checking other vods.
EDIT number billion:
The build has a lot of Dragoons and corsairs. Templar tech, Reavers and Zealot speed are all going to be extremely late. This is why I believe that the correct response by Zerg would be to go for Hydras and some Zerglings to hold off the first push while making scourge with the extra gas he is bound to have. So mainly hydraling-scourge. This actually should completely crush a Dragoon-heavy army composition with no Templars.
Too much theory though :/ I still believe Hydraling with a large emphasis on macro and upgrades and out-expanding the P to be immensely strong against this.
So i guess it's wierd that i already use this? It's super innefective whenever i try to use it, because if he masses lings it doesn't matter if i kill his overlords. 24 speedlings > 9 goons, and then he just attacks my nat and gg.
Yeah Saint opened muta. He had maybe 6 when Kal went in with 4-5 goons to start the harass Hydra speed, Hydra range, 18 hydras.. no not affordable. Not to mention the lack of scourges.
And are you cutting probes? Most of you guys are probably attacking too late. Also this shouldn't be scouted by zerg since it's pretty easy to prevent this from being scouted.
By 7:30 with Kal, he had more or less "finished" his initial attack and he even bothered getting +1 first. Although the +1 was probably a mind game to force Saint to make sunkens in sim city for +1 zealots.
Or an anti ling measure but i dunno, it was a slight variation but it's not like Saint was gonna do well with hydras when those sunkens were in the back.
Hmm I think that you scout it with your first pair of scourge as your second pair kills the first corsair and the third pair kills the second corsair if there is one. If you see no citadel and see more than one goon it's pretty obvious. Actually, if you don't see it with your overlord in main you should be getting suspicious. A Dragoon won't be out before a citadel should be built.
Calm reacted vs it pretty well and was able to defend against it quite effortlessly even though he still powered drones for a while longer than actually is necessary for the build. Afterwards he decided to go for mass hydras, yes, but he very well could have decided to go for the third gas, the min only, and made a few rounds of drones instead. That is completely irrelevant if we're talking about being able to defend against this build.
Afterwards, you will have quite a bit of excess gas, so after you make those drones after holding off the attack, I believe that it might be a good idea to go for a double or triple evo hydraling with most of your gas going into scourge to combat the corsairs. The P's HTs will be so late that I have serious doubts about him being able to hold an army of Hydraling off.
Another thing worth noting is that the Zerg should actually go for an early +1 carapace instead of a +1 ranged attack if they scout this build, simply because it transitions so much better into the Hydraling play with quick adrenaline glands. I'm not sure if the Z can scout the P early enough, though. Maybe delay the evo chamber if you see no early citadel, and decide on the upgrade when your scourge arrive at his base? Things to consider.
It would be nice if you played vs it before talking out your ass about it. You won't have 18 hydras. You shouldn't really kill 2/3 of the first sairs or the toss is just dead. You don't always see a citadel as a lot of good tosses put citadels by natural cannons and zergs like to keep overlords to watch for unit movement in and out (probe denying) rather than exploring every inch of a typical FE. And a 2nd overlord probably won't be flying to the natural and suiciding. And it's not unusual to see one goon and never see a citadel at all. Your sim city will (90%+) be built to handle speed zealots of some sort giving misplaced sunkens.
Yeah I know... I'd love to have clairvoyance playing SC too. I bet I'd be real good.
On December 20 2009 17:19 SuperJongMan wrote: It would be nice if you played vs it before talking out your ass about it. You won't have 18 hydras. You shouldn't really kill 2/3 of the first sairs or the toss is just dead. You don't always see a citadel as a lot of good tosses put citadels by natural cannons and zergs like to keep overlords to watch for unit movement in and out (probe denying) rather than exploring every inch of a typical FE. And a 2nd overlord probably won't be flying to the natural and suiciding. And it's not unusual to see one goon and never see a citadel at all. Your sim city will (90%+) be built to handle speed zealots of some sort giving misplaced sunkens.
Yeah I know... I'd love to have clairvoyance playing SC too. I bet I'd be real good.
Oh I meant right click to the sairs =S you will most likely be able to flank with your scouting scourge if you can patrol properly, so you should kill one.
18 Hydras at 7:40 is actually quite behind the normal, go try it. in a vacuum 1v1 with a computer starting with overpool and getting 12 lings, you have 12 hydras at about 7:10, like 18 at maybe 7:20-25. A few less lings and taking some harrass into account, ta-da. Even if it's not 18 it's close.
Oh they put citadel at nat? Well I don't think that's too common, but even so I'd still be cautious and proceed as stated. Normally I have my overlord in main while my other overlord at nat goes around the FE searching for buildings as my lings deny the probes, although I tend to keep the forge in my vision. I guess other people do it differently. I haven't really encountered citadels in nat like ever, though. Stargates are a lot more common.
Also, well the timing for Citadel is way before a goon. Stargate goes up as soon as core is done, this is also when a Dragoon starts. A citadel is placed way before the goon is done. If it's not placed, I get suspicious. Everyone else should, as well. Seriously, would you scout the P not getting a citadel and go "Oh, it's in his natural min line"?
Sunken placement I agree with, but that will naturally change if the Z adapts.
In a vacuum vs a comp, you won't lose a single overlord, won't waste any scourges etc... while an actual opponant will already have tried to slow you down a few times by the time the attack is coming. If you can barely squeeze out 15 hydras by 7:30 vs comp, with sairs, harass, etc it's even less likely 15 will be out. Especially with your aggressive scouting overlords, the chances of you losing 2 are even higher and then getting 18 hydras seems incredibly optimistic.
Don't forget the attack timing can be as soon as 3-4 dragoons with 5-6 just popping out.
When the scourges see it (3gate goon), it's already on it's way giving you about 30 seconds to react, enough yes, but probably the reaction will be deviating from your regular management and slow you down. Something not easy for P's nowadays. The defensive reaction poses no immediate threat to the protoss as he now increases his macro and tech and starts to truly ride the double nexus adv.
Citadel is placed at naturals often because that is also where robotics are placed (Hydra D) and we all know robos have to be put upfront to be useful. And yes, this location is hard to scout with cannons and all. And even if you know citadel timing, it takes a certain kind of brave hero toss to simply plop it down right under the overlord showing you the timing. He has pylongs at 2 locations. You have 2 overlords..
Anyways enough for tonight. I'm really stoned and I hope I make sense.
On December 20 2009 07:58 ProoM wrote: Looks like ZvP is getting even more imbalanced ;// (seriously, ZvP is so fucking hard >.> ).
Oh wait lol, my +1 speedlot counter build, counters this one perfectly too!! Awsome!
How? The two builds have timings over a minute apart... and both require different unit composition.... ... ...or maybe that's why ZvP is hard... ~_~
"- Send out dragoons and sairs, usually around 6 (6:50) or 9 (7:25) goons and 3-4 sairs." +1 speedlot attack comes out at about 6:50-6:55. The build I created counters both of these perfectly while having even a better economy than 5 hatch hydra's. Don't really want to talk about it's details yet, because I'm not ready to publish it .
6:50 10speedlots +2lots 6:50 2z/6goon +3goon&range Both no +1, and constant sair. Now, I am protoss and know these are asap timings from ccnexus start. But I'm not zerg, and while I know basics dont feel comfortable doing optimized timings, and dont want to speak to exact counts. Nonetheless, until zergs are clear about the builds they are using to achieve what timing, my thoughts are bellow.
I tend to agree that Zerg can have enough ling/sunk, or enough hydra, or your lurk/muta tech fast enough to deal with both kinds of asap attack after sair (speedlot or range goon). But, I think what this means is that you are doing an asap timing build yourself based on build plan of 3hat spire 5hat. Travel distance ends up being a bitch for Protoss. But it should be noted that many zerg don't do asap builds plans, either because of inefficiency and/or wanting to mass, say, >30 drones mining first.
As mentioned, most zergs will not know that you are going for a asap strong attack after sair. If they scout well the best they have are suspicious. This is a case where protoss should be able to get a better read than his opponent. What this means is that zerg is doing their response build a bit blind to what protoss decides to do. Now, sure, they may do a lower eco asap build plan that has enough stuff to deal with these attacks sufficiently that they come out ahead, or they may not.
Because the success of these two asap attacks after sair seem to largely depend on how your zerg opponent decide to play, sadly, it seems that just playing a straight macro long game is the best option now-a-days.
On December 21 2009 08:43 SuperJongMan wrote: Why do you guys think this is incapable of getting into a fast 3rd gas smoothly? Who's actually played it with something to say?
Still waiting on a reply to this before I give this a shot:
On December 20 2009 14:31 Salv wrote: Interesting guide, always nice to see a [G] post with SuperJongMan. I am tempted to give this a try, but I have been having good success with the speedlot / corsair opening.
SuperJongMan, if a Protoss is having success with the other build, would you suggest switching to this one instead? Is it simply a better/more flexible timing attack? Does this make the previous speed-zeal timing ineffective in comparison? Thanks.
8p-scout, 11forge, 14cc, 16nexus, 16gate, 16p, 17assim, 19z, 21core, 22z, 28stargate, goon, 32p, 2ndgas, 34goon, sair, then 2xgate+range asap as soon as scout is out of range @7:15 assuming 2gate asap: 2zealot/9goon/4sair ~70psi. *you could delay deciding to go for range or citadel until sair scouts, but that would add on a good 30seconds, then range would complete a bit after you arrived at zerg base. *can also go core asap with only 1zealot for bit faster goon.
The timing looks good to me...well its the best that can be expected. Main thing I see is this is a timing attack, but does not have to deal with the nasty simcity+lings+sunk+drone like zealots due to range. The second thing is that zerg cant really scout that you are doing this...well they can scout that you have no citadel/robo which is suspicious of course, but many zerg don't stay around so long and sacrifice ovie.
Still, I'm not sure if its worth it. By 7:15 a well done 5hat spire build should have (go look at mondragon reps for instance) 12speedling, 2sunk, 2creep. and by the time you arrive 2sunk at each base and 24speedlings. And how fast they have tech just depends on how much they emphasize it over drones.
Is this force big enough to win over 24 lings, especially when pincered in front of Z's nat?
Thanks SJM! Now teach us how to lose vs a 12 hatching zerg while going proxy 9/9 gate on dest =D I keeeeed. Nicely written guy. This build has a lot of weaknesses of course but if executed properly and against the right build it can be extremely effective. The key is knowing when to use it(looking for signs/predicting heavy muta commitment).
It has problems switching into a third simply because the commitment of gas to gas heavy units like goons/sairs instead mixing in more zeals mean you will most likely not have enough templar later on,when youre trying to set up your third, to possibly fight against a pumping 3 base 5 hatch zerg. At least in my expierence when I would try a gas heavy 3 gas 4 hatch muta and toss counters with goon/sair heavy build they either destroy me in the first big attack or lose trying to set up their third if I manage to fight it off. If zerg is not going muta and instead is going pure ling/hydra with a lower drone count you made a big mistake trying this build
This has shown up in a few pro games lately. I can't help but point out that if the Zerg forgoes mutas and opts for mass hydra, you're stuck waiting on a 3rd far longer than is affordable with your delayed temp tech
I've tried this build, as I've tried every build I've seen in pro games, after working out the probe cuts in single player to replicate their timings, and when Z just makes 4 scourge and starts hydra right away, they have more than double your army count before you have storm. Unless they are lazy on watching your third you will not get it when you need it. Being forced into an 8 gate play with your gas spent in a less than optimal way for that style is not pleasant at all.
SJM, do you have any idea why Kal went +1 Armour after getting +1 Attack? I find this deviation from the standard pattern intriguing and was wondering if that was part of the CoDra build as well.
Also, how does this compare to the Forge FE into 2 Gate SpeedZeal build? Protoss have had some success with that build and I thought it was going to be the future standard PvZ metagame, but after seeing this, I am no longer certain .
On December 24 2009 14:50 Louder wrote: This has shown up in a few pro games lately. I can't help but point out that if the Zerg forgoes mutas and opts for mass hydra, you're stuck waiting on a 3rd far longer than is affordable with your delayed temp tech
I've tried this build, as I've tried every build I've seen in pro games, after working out the probe cuts in single player to replicate their timings, and when Z just makes 4 scourge and starts hydra right away, they have more than double your army count before you have storm. Unless they are lazy on watching your third you will not get it when you need it. Being forced into an 8 gate play with your gas spent in a less than optimal way for that style is not pleasant at all.
protoss with less than optimal Templar numbers i like this strategy! <3
Thank you for all these pvz guides they are all very helpful, including this one. The rep and vods helped me alot. I've only used this build at D and D+ level so far, but its definitely a nice change of pace and good at punishing greedy zergs.
On March 17 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: Bumping this because + Show Spoiler +
Tyson showcased this build/variation of it and raped Where on Dante's Peak SE lol
. Thought it'd be a good build for Protoss players to learn to keep those Zergs on their toes
hm, maybe tosses are trying to jam the square rod into the circlular hole with zealot builds, with the effectiveness of modern simcities.
Well that's why in Bisu's current build the most important part is the corsairs rather than the zealots, and a secondary purpose of the zealots is simply to retain map control. It's certainly not "trying to jam the square rod into the circlular hole" considering that it's working.
On March 17 2011 22:18 Taekwon wrote: I'll watch the + Show Spoiler +
Tyson vs Where
later but against a better zerg, I don't quite understand why a switch to cracklings/ultrafiler wouldn't demolish this
Because you didn't read the thread well enough.
This is aimed to hit the zerg around the time that his spire has completed. There's no way he's going to have hive tech by then. He's likely to either have a dozen or so hydras out for aggression or is going to be more aimed at turtling with sim city, which this build is aiming to defeat. If the game isn't over after your attack then you obviously return to a standard protoss mid-late game composition.
nice bump~ i played quite a few games with this strategy if u don't win fast (let's say middle game), i think you're out...cracklings+swarm is too powerful ....at least for me
good bump will incorporate this into my strategy ^^ thank you arvick can anyone point to me more pvz guides or pvt and pvp ? I will try to search on my own but if you have any good guides you want to share please do so :D
On March 17 2011 19:50 ArvickHero wrote: Bumping this because + Show Spoiler +
Tyson showcased this build/variation of it and raped Where on Dante's Peak SE lol
. Thought it'd be a good build for Protoss players to learn to keep those Zergs on their toes
hm, maybe tosses are trying to jam the square rod into the circlular hole with zealot builds, with the effectiveness of modern simcities.
The current +1 Speedlot timing build is designed so that while the Protoss's economy is virtually the same as it would be for the 4 Gate 2 Archon, Zerg needs to scale back on droning and therefore have a weaker economy by having to build usually at least 2 sunken per front and starting unit production rather early, compared to previous timings (against 4 Gate 2 Archon).
It's not just that first timing that Zergs need to worry about, but also that big mid-game Zealot/Dragoon/Templar timing where Zerg has to have a big enough economy to fend off that attack, which is why Zergs try to be as greedy as possible with their sunken/simcity. And that's why the +1 Sair/Speedlot is so damn good, cuz it limits the Zerg economy from going wild, and it will severely punish any Zerg trying to be too greedy.
I'm just saying that CoDra is a good build to mix it up with, because while the +1 build is super fucking awesome, CoDra keeps the Zergs on their toes and forces them to play certain ways to avoid getting their simcity picked off ehehe
Oh wow I always like to read about PvZ builds that but an emphasis on dragoon usage. Just one question, are there any maps that favour the codra build? For example, in maps with a small choke into the natural (ie destination), will this build still be viable? And in the case of quick lurkers from the zerg? what can you do to keep map control over the zerg since you dont have a early robo facility?
EPT
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