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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116973
So after reading this thread from ages past, it got me thinking. what if instead of using the traditional +1 speedzeal push, we change it to a +1 speed range goon timing attack. first lets take a look at some of the shortcomings of the +1 speedzeal push:
-3 hatch muta counters efffectively. also a lack of sairs to deal with the mutas
-some sort of early lurker build renders your attack useless, not allowing you to do enough damage to the zerg in order to give yourself an advantage
so the goons are able to deal with these counters more effectively. heres the build order (i have created so not 100% reliable) for this push:
coming off a standard forge FE build:
first 100 gas - +1 weapons
after core goes up, smack down 3 more gates. by this time, you should have 2 zealots (one already out of the gate and one producing) assuming a zeal was produced right when the gate went up
next 200 gas- robo facility
next 150 gas- goon range
throw down and a robo support and observatory* along with a shuttle right before +1 is finished.
move out when range and +1 is close to being finished
you should now have enough money to take a third when your goon crew is moving out.
the upgrades are finished at around 6:45 making this a 7:15 attack, almost the same as the zeal rush remeber, you can station the goons at a "proxy" location to shorten travel time.
*this is only needed if lurkers are out and about. you may be able to delay when this is placed and save the gas for other things.
range and +1 should finish at the same time.
because of the robo bay, this push can be followed up by some reaver play supported by goons. this build is ment to bypass simcities, making it much easier for you to rape the zerg expos. also, this build can be tweaked to fit in templar tech instead of robo tech. just haven't tested the timings for that yet.
so here you have it: the goon timing push. tell me what you think and if this already exists, i will die a bit inside.
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Cool hundredth post.
I like the build, but I'm not very good. Have you tried the strategy? I just think you'll find something out that you never thought of like: having too many goons early makes you not get corsairs in time leading mutas to roam free with their mobility... or the ever popular 3 hatch hydra and you not having enough gas for storms...
edit:
On April 02 2010 13:28 onihunter wrote:
Didn't movie do this to jaedong a while ago?
You just died a bit inside didn't you?
double edit:Wow movie and jaedong.. was this osl? That was an amazing game.
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you will not have enough money for constant dragoon production if you throw down a robotics facility that soon. If I take your build without the robotics part, this has been done a many times in pro games, sometimes with many zlots, sometimes only a couple, sometimes canceling a stargate before, etc. Ive used it/had it used against me a few times and i think it should be used more, its a pretty good build for todays standard play. A followup into corsairs is usually beneficial for the protoss, as the zerg will often counter with mutalisks.
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The 5 Gate Goon timing attack is essentially Protoss' verision of 2/3 Hatch Hydra. It's all-in, because if it's scouted, a large enough combination of lings, mutas and hydras will destroy the timing attack. You also won't have any tier 2 tech, so a hydra break will be extremely effective. Also, mutas will also roam free due to the lack of any corsair presence and Dragoons only deal half damage to Mutas.
If you're looking for a timing attack that isn't all in, there's the corsair-dragoon timing attack (Codra).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108201
Kal used this build against Firefist last MSL if I remember clearly.
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On April 02 2010 15:07 NguN wrote:The 5 Gate Goon timing attack is essentially Protoss' verision of 2/3 Hatch Hydra. It's all-in, because if it's scouted, a large enough combination of lings, mutas and hydras will destroy the timing attack. You also won't have any tier 2 tech, so a hydra break will be extremely effective. Also, mutas will also roam free due to the lack of any corsair presence and Dragoons only deal half damage to Mutas. If you're looking for a timing attack that isn't all in, there's the corsair-dragoon timing attack (Codra). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108201Kal used this build against Firefist last MSL if I remember clearly.
In spectacular style I might add.
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United States44398 Posts
On April 02 2010 15:07 NguN wrote:
The 5 Gate Goon timing attack is essentially Protoss' verision of 2/3 Hatch Hydra. It's all-in, because if it's scouted, a large enough combination of lings, mutas and hydras will destroy the timing attack. You also won't have any tier 2 tech, so a hydra break will be extremely effective. Also, mutas will also roam free due to the lack of any corsair presence and Dragoons only deal half damage to Mutas.
It's rare to see a strategy forum that concisely explains the problems as neatly as this one does.
The man speaks truth. Goon rushes are never going to be a standard core play in PvZ because they are too easily countered. They're not worth knowing about below B imo simply because it's the kind of build that augments standard play once you've got that down but in no way replaces it. Sort out how to play properly and then start messing around adding cheeses.
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United States44398 Posts
On a related note, muta destroy your build. You cannot ever play against muta without ht/archons/corsairs. Those are the counters. Dragoons do not cut it. Trying any kind of reaver play without air control is laughably bad.
The reason you don't see the sheer power of muta vs normal Protoss armies is because it has become second nature for Protoss to dominate the skies with the hard counters to mutalisks. But just because you don't see Zergs make more than 9 muta, do not for one minute think they won't if you give them the chance. Mutalisks are imba, if you're not going to use the hard counters to them you will lose the game.
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This is a relatively recent rush build. There are a couple threads on it around.
I liken it to 4gate goon pvp. It is risky in similar way, but I would not say all-in.
Yes muta/ling/sunk played right is counter build. You mainly hope they went 2hat muta (since you should have enough goons to defend and then will be able to transition into other play) or 5+hat eco build where their tech is later than your attack and you will just devastate them unless they went mass sunk/ling.
Similar, vs 2-3hat hydra you hope you scout it and just defend and transition to storm. Similar vs 4-5hat mass hydra you'll probably just want to defend and tech storm.
The main thing that sets your build apart is that you go for the early robo.
Which is often counterproductive.
You are going for a mass attack build, but also an early robo.
This makes your attack less powerful/slower by a decent amount.
And the only point of an early robo here would be perhaps being able to break someone going lurk due to having obs.
Here is the build I suggest, and you can modify it:
opening FE => zealot+goon=> +1 if you want => chase ovie away with goon if necessary => cut probes asap when ovie is gone and add 3gates and then range => just pump units.
You can attack as fast as ~7 with 8goon/4zealots.
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okay im too lazy to use the quote function, so...
anyone who said this was the 5 gate goon build- that 5 gate goon build was a all-in build meant to completly kill the zerg and does not attempt to tech as that build is supposed to end the game. for this goon push build, it aims to give the player map control as well as deny perhaps a 3rd expo or even the natural if it presents itself. it also acts as a bridge to late game play transition, like reavers or if in the build, we transitioned to templar tech, the ht, archon zeal end game strats
@kwark- not really a cheese build, as i do not intend for it to end the game. also, i guess every build has a hardcore counter to it, the key to every build would be to scout yourself and also prevent scouting from the zerg. hide goons in the main or a proxy location away from ovie site.
@fyre dragon- this build is like a variation of the zeal timing rush, except this covers some of the weaknesses of the zeal attack. most zerg players, will seal their expos with an evo chamber and hatcheries and therefore, zeals will no get through. but goons, using their range attack can bypass these rather easily. and during my testing against the computer, after the robo, you haave enough gas to have 11 goons 2 zeals when the upgrades finish.
@knickknack - this is not a mass all-in type of attack. it gives you some map control while you tech. if the robo does not fit your taste, you can also fit in a stargate, citidel etc..
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If you have no intention of mass attack 4gate is a waste. To produce out of 4gate goon range early you need to cut probe and do nothing else but make units/pylons.
If you want to fit citadel-archives/stargate tech in there you will go 2gateway. Maybe 3 if you make no probes.
At 7min this will have something like uhhh 5goon/2zealots attacking.
So compared to straight stargate-archive tech the trade off here is an okay attack / map control vs. delayed tech and economy depending on probe cuts.
Generally the point here will be that map control means little since it does not do any significant damage to your opponent, while tech/economy certainly help.
Its a middle of the road build trying to attack and tech. I have not see it so its something slightly different at least.
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EPT
