EPTpvz dragoon opening?
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theramstoss
Canada242 Posts
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0o0o0oh
United States35 Posts
Also the type of terrain narrows the options for implementation of a goon strat vs zergs, as youll mainly want a good line to develop in your ranks of goons to beat down sunk, hatch and evo's. Maps that have tight chokes dont lend themselves to these types of strats. Im sure further examination of maps will have one ruling out +1 ranged goons in favor of the more nimble sair or even zeal openings. Although I agree, goons and temps, mid game, can be a brutal thing. But absent the temps I feel like zerg will always be able to present more targets to your goons than they can beat. Which all leads me to ponder the timing involved here. At what point will a zerg be susceptible to a goon army? Also was this a sort of FE strat or one base maneuver (though since you mention the +1 attack Im guessing this is a forge FE)? Could you link the White-Ra replay you speak of? Or the match you saw this performed in? thanks! | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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saritenite
Singapore1680 Posts
Definitely there are variations and timings which have been shown to work in dragoon heavy compositions, Movie versus Jaedong on HBR is a good example, but lings just eat dragoons hardcore and mutas outmaneuver dragoons too. Muta-Ling counters Zealot-Dragoon compositions fairly well, as well as being more cost effective. | ||
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theramstoss
Canada242 Posts
On March 23 2010 15:57 0o0o0oh wrote: Im guessing lings have something to do with it. As the cost and effectiveness of lings vs goon armies is great. Also the type of terrain narrows the options for implementation of a goon strat vs zergs, as youll mainly want a good line to develop in your ranks of goons to beat down sunk, hatch and evo's. Maps that have tight chokes dont lend themselves to these types of strats. Im sure further examination of maps will have one ruling out +1 ranged goons in favor of the more nimble sair or even zeal openings. Although I agree, goons and temps, mid game, can be a brutal thing. But absent the temps I feel like zerg will always be able to present more targets to your goons than they can beat. Which all leads me to ponder the timing involved here. At what point will a zerg be susceptible to a goon army? Also was this a sort of FE strat or one base maneuver (though since you mention the +1 attack Im guessing this is a forge FE)? Could you link the White-Ra replay you speak of? Or the match you saw this performed in? thanks! Obviously pros sometimes use this as a timing cheese-type attack, but I'm talking about it as a standard opening, like this: http://www.viddler.com/explore/Vo-one/videos/2/ http://www.viddler.com/explore/kyrgyz/videos/1/ And skip the Stargate. If I get countered by lings, those are lings that could've been made into drones. I pull back, mix in some zealots, push again. Pull back, mix in archons, push again. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36399 Posts
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KwarK
United States43977 Posts
On March 23 2010 15:29 theramstoss wrote: Why don't Korean pros open +1 ranged dragoons like white ra does? It covers hydra cheese and 3 hat muta (cutting the need for cannons), and you can go on the aggressive easily, and add templar tech for archons and speedlots. I'm D but I find this easier to execute than the standard stargate openings.. What's the reason pros don't do it? Thanks in advance. Dragoons lose to mutaling really badly. You're right that it leaves you safe from muta harass but without splash damage there is no disincentive to the zerg continuing to mass mutaling. That creates two problems, firstly your army is simply not cost efficient, in a straight battle you will be overwhelmed by mutaling. Secondly every time you try to move out your main base will be hit by 24 or so mutalisks which requires at least two control groups of dragoons to block, as well as stationary units to buy time for reinforcements to save the nexus. If you ignore the muta and try to trade bases they can use their superior mobility to inflict critical damage and still get back in time to defeat your army. In short, he can kill all your probes and your units at the same time with ease. "But you transition into templar and archons" While you may be doing the same things as in a normal game the order is important. In a normal game you go speedlots while teching and then once your tech is established you then go dragoons to augment it. This works because you're making speedlots in the phase in which zerg is vulnerable to speedlots, keeping their drone count and expansions down etc... If you mix up your order to dragoons then you need to do a speedlot switch to tech due to pressures on gas. Dragoons aren't as good as +1 speedlots and corsairs for early pressure and a speedlot switch in the late midgame against muta would be absolutely useless. Although you end up with the same stuff in the same amounts the order matters. You need the right stuff at the right time or it doesn't work. The reason you probably have trouble with stargate openings is because they are very dependent on multitasking and adaptation, it is a build designed to feed you information to process and options to choose from. This is great for the higher level player to exploit the situation but can be a clusterfuck for the weaker player. By contrast attack moving dragoons plays better to the strengths of the D rank player. It's not that the build is better, it's that your execution of the build is better. However as you improve you'll find the stargate opening just as easy and the dragoon opening losing, even if you play it perfectly. White-ra doesn't use it every game. It's a situational thing which can be effective if you know when to use it and why. White-ra does, as do Korean pros. It's not the kind of build a D rank should use until he learns when to use it. | ||
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0o0o0oh
United States35 Posts
On March 23 2010 16:21 theramstoss wrote: Obviously pros sometimes use this as a timing cheese-type attack, but I'm talking about it as a standard opening, like this: http://www.viddler.com/explore/Vo-one/videos/2/ http://www.viddler.com/explore/kyrgyz/videos/1/ And skip the Stargate. If I get countered by lings, those are lings that could've been made into drones. I pull back, mix in some zealots, push again. Pull back, mix in archons, push again. sweetness! brb  | ||
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theramstoss
Canada242 Posts
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Mirror0423
United States175 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
(7 minute timing) bisu, stork jangbi and movie have all used this at one time or another And this would die horribly to mass speedlings. (or even a hydra/ling) Also if the Z decieded to push lurkers.. you have no robo for a whilee | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
It's like a new chess player trying to learn how to do one of those queen gambits or whatever when they could just move the pawn in front of the king two steps as an opener (white). Sorry I suck at chess. You can get to B- PvZ easy if you simply play normal FE, learn how to ling-tight wall-in, scout for all-ins, get 8 gates and move out with a +1 speedlot, templar, archon army go go kill the Zerg's 3rd while you expand and add 10 cannons on that exp. | ||
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GeMicles
Canada307 Posts
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On March 24 2010 07:22 GeMicles wrote: could work as long as you somehow deny scouting from the zerg. if he sees goons, he'll get lings and you will get raped. however, if you are able to survive and deny scouting, you can execute the 3 gate goon rush versus the zerg, which would be pretty epic. this would probably be played as a semi-all in as if you dont kill the natural or the third, you will be stuck in the stone age in terms of tech and will probably lose late game Actually just saying, it's not a rush build because it's too late and it's 5 Gate Goon basically All-In! ^^ | ||
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