basically this build is like a fast +1 zealot attack.. except you mix in lots of goons with your zeals to defend against the inevitable fast muta counter from the zerg (when they see you use your first 100 gas for weapons instead of stargate), and lets you continue pushing into their natural for the win
this took a while because the observer in this game doesnt like showing the protoss base .. and im still not 100% sure about certain things because the camera goes for about 30 or 40 second periods without showing anything useful, so i had to use the minimap keke ^^
cannon timings are for a scouted overpool on a 4 player map with a medium-long rush distance on an adjacent position. you will obviously have to change things (warp you cannons earlier) if youre playing on a rush map like python or something..
one thing to note is that the cannon timings on this are razor, razor thin. 1 second later and effort wouldve been able to run his 4 lings past the cannons.. if you have bad probe splits then it might be better to cut a probe and get cannons earlier, or to go cannon nexus cannon instead of nexus cannon cannon
Relative Timings (from youtube)
the purpose of this list isnt to get things exact, because obviously your BO will change dramatically depending on what the zerg opens with (overpool, 9 pool, 12 hatch, 12 pool all require different adaptions from the protoss). it's more so you can see the relative gaps between the different tech structures and upgrades you need to get
1 minute 51 seconds: Forge 2 minute 13 seconds: Nexus 2 minute 23 seconds: 1st cannon 2 minute 42 seconds: 2nd cannon 2 minute 57 seconds: gate 3 minute 10 seconds: gas 3 minute 45 seconds: cybernetics by 4 minute 36 seconds forge spin (assumed that it's with first 100 gas) 4 minute 56 seconds 2nd gate ~5 minute 2 seconds first goon pops out, chase away overlord 5 minute 12 seconds goon range (or as soon as overlord leaves sight range of your cybernetics core) 5 minute 22 seconds 3rd and 4th gates added 5 minute 48 seconds nat gas 6 minute 42 seconds move out with 5 goon 4 zeal, rally your 4 gates to the zerg natural, and 1a into that bitch
Exemplar Build Order (definitely NOT set in stone)
8 pylon @ nat Scout overpool 12 forgey 13 nexus 13 cannon 14 cannon 15 gate (<-- 15 is optional, 16 is the usual timing. stats added this at 15 supply instead of 16 because effort was threatening with lings) 16 gas 19 core 19 zeal 22 pyl 26 weapons 26 goon 29 pyl 30 gate 31 zeal 35 py 35 range 35 gate 35 gate 35 zeal 37 zeal 41 pyl from there it's pretty simple, pump goons, add gas, add citadel as preferred. you should move out with 4 zeal 5 goons at about 6:45
this BO is not set in stone, im sure it could be tightened up by as much as 2-4 probes or 5 -10 more seconds.. if you have an improvement post and ill replace :D
EDIT - This link doesn't have a rough BO, so that's good. This build works out to be pretty well if they don't scout it properly, but muta/lings will eat this alive if it is. In the end, it's definitely all-in at this point though, because the lack of corsairs will allow mutas to rule the skies
EDIT - This link doesn't have a rough BO, so that's good. This build works out to be pretty well if they don't scout it properly, but muta/lings will eat this alive if it is. In the end, it's definitely all-in at this point though, because the lack of corsairs will allow mutas to rule the skies
well this build has subtle differences to 5 gate goon. it's 4 gates, so not quite as much all-in, and it gets early +1 to make zeals 2 hit lings ^^
EDIT - This link doesn't have a rough BO, so that's good. This build works out to be pretty well if they don't scout it properly, but muta/lings will eat this alive if it is. In the end, it's definitely all-in at this point though, because the lack of corsairs will allow mutas to rule the skies
It's no so much the lack of sairs than the fact that mutaling will just rape your entire base silly, and you'll have no templars/archons to fend it off. It's the lack of a timely templar archives that makes this build all-in.
4/5 gate goon is always fun. thanksfor this :D what specific bo would counter this?
is mutaling a viable counter vs the protoss dragoon army? if not, attacking the base is pretty stupid cuz you NEED to defend. if you dont, dragoons and zealots would melt the zerg's base faster than a mutaling attack. how about the 3rd? the 3rd wouldnt be taken early for a planned mutaling
I think the problem with these kinds of builds is the luck factor. You depend on your opponent to not do something in order for you to win. For example, if EffOrt had decided to go hydralisks, he would have easily dismantled the build. Hydralisks are also a good counter against the normal +1 speedzeal attack, however, you'll need to get the hydralisks slightly earlier.
The particular build puts you even more behind than a +1 speedzeal rush. If you notice, in order to get the extra gateways, Stats forbears both his Citadel of Adun and his Stargate. He has no tech at all, and his citadel is extremely delayed. In a +1 speedzeal rush, if you fail at least you can survive any oncoming attacks because you already have the Citadel to get your Templar Archives (mutalisk or hydralisk). In this build, you won't have that tech, and the ensuing hydra aggression will kill you.
The build banks on the Zerg doing probably the most standard reaction to +1 speedzeal. It loses to almost everything else. Any faster mutalisk or hydralisk would automatically win - you'll have to deal with that with good probe scouting and change your build. It is a good thing to toss up your sleeve of tricks, but I hope no one looks to make this their 'standard build'. Just my two cents, at least.
Thanks for posting the build and such, it's definitely interesting and a nice way that Stats beat EffOrt in the PL.
Great post superiorwolf i agree with most of what you said. this is definitely not a standard BO, it's something to do every once in a while to try to catch your opponent off guard - if it can catch effort off guard, im sure it can catch a lot of iccup zergs off guard!
although I think this build does pretty well against hydras - your initial force will arrive before hydra speed/range is done and hydras without upgrades are pretty bad!
On February 10 2010 16:29 lazz wrote: Great post superiorwolf i agree with most of what you said. this is definitely not a standard BO, it's something to do every once in a while to try to catch your opponent off guard - if it can catch effort off guard, im sure it can catch a lot of iccup zergs off guard!
although I think this build does pretty well against hydras - your initial force will arrive before hydra speed/range is done and hydras without upgrades are pretty bad!
Yeah. That's the whole point of the build actually. To kill hatching hydras that have no ups. Your initial goon force of 3-5 goons with 1 zeal will tear apart any small platoon of lings with decent micro. Just rally them all to the opponent's choke (or, in hbr's case, on the ridge between zerg's main and 3rd) and destroy the opponent's simcity (it will be sim citied since the zerg will think ur going +1 speedzeal rush).
This build completely annihilates the typical 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydras with above average micro. I've beaten much better zergs with this, though you can also lose to shitty zergs who chose to go for a weird build, like 5 hat muta ling without knowing you'd 5 gate goon.
I actually tried this build out, and its definitely a nice build
This build is incredibly strong against 3 hatch spire--> scourges. I dont play zerg, but they seem to get much less hydra's this way when the first push comes. not only that, the hydra will have no range upgrades when your +1 kicks in and your first 4lot4goon push is knocking at their door.
Now there is a huge problem which this build, which is, the first scouting overlord. If they see cyber spinning, and no stargate, youll be dam sure they will put down a hydralisk den and upgrade RAnge asap ORR, they will save larvae for 3 hatch lings In addition they will add many sunkens to their defence. 8 goons can take down 2 sunkens without casualities, but 2 sunkens + mass speedlings is another story altogether.
Now the tweak would be, your first 100 gas goes to forge, your second 50 gas goes to goon. Then when you have 150 gas (your goon aruond 25-40% done), I build my stargate close to where the overlord is in my main so he see's it.
Then your goon is done, hunt down the overlord, and before your stargate finishes, cancel the stargate and upgrade range (you lose some money).
simcity is important that you fan out your tech buildings and gateway pylon away from this stargate spot (kinda like anti-drop simcity in pvp) so that you can spot the exact position of this Ovie.
This is sort of cool, have you ever seen the BackHo vs Calm on Eye of the storm? I was wondering if anyone has a similar thread on that build?
It's like a 4gate dt all-in (he ends up with something like 12 dts) starts off almost standard opening too. Turns into 7gate from 2 base with robo, speed zlots and a lot of high temps
On February 10 2010 21:42 dRaW wrote: This is sort of cool, have you ever seen the BackHo vs Calm on Eye of the storm? I was wondering if anyone has a similar thread on that build? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCLbjHUTwA4
It's like a 4gate dt all-in (he ends up with something like 12 dts) starts off almost standard opening too. Turns into 7gate from 2 base with robo, speed zlots and a lot of high temps
Sadly the build loses if your opponent knows how to defend from DTs.
about this build, well I don't know, I think that 2 sunkens at both bases along with a couple of lings should deal with this quite nicely. Might work if they confuse this with +1 speedlot but the build really is quite different(earlier dragoons, range, no citadel) so I wouldn't say that this is that good. I guess it works if your opponent always goes 3h muta when they scout early +1 but wouldn't count on that.
Well similarly to the goon rush, it's just a different build. I tried it on iccup and worked against a B- zerg very nicely (something like a 9min-10min easy win just from confusing him) however, i definitely didnt get that timing down. Similarly as much as you guys criticize the builds, if it works on calm, it will work on many other zergs
Protoss FE rushes: sair to speedlots sair to rangegoon/lot
And now protoss are revisiting no stargate rushes, but of course they need to deal with muta so its either sair or goon. 2-3gate speedlot to 2stargate 4gate rangegoon/lot
The main problem I see early with no stargate builds is they are more easily scout-able. You are not going stargate in main so that is a clear hint to zerg you are going for some kind of attack. The key in these builds is keeping the zerg blind imo, and that is the only way I would do these builds. I'd be pretty ehhh on going stargate and canceling...this costs you more minerals for a later attack.
For instance, we see in this game, protoss lays down the two gateways in main just after the overlord flys out of vision. So all zerg saw was +1spinning and no stargate in main...not enough to decide anything. Then zerg sees 2nd gate at nat, and should realize rush, but does not know its a really hard 4gate rush. Still zerg had pathetic defense at 10:25 when he should have realized rush due to scouting early 2nd gate a minute earlier, and at that point should have played safely and put down some sunks and made lings.
Like Ive said before about the stargate rushes, their early attack success largely comes down to how safely zerg plays -- their ratio of units vs pump drone. The same is the case here for no stargate builds, and add in even more importance to scouting info.
EPT
