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Well every terran knows the bad feeling in his stomach when there is a pylon missing in the protoss's base or when his dragoon doesn't come out on time
I used to think this was no problem at all, I checked when the dragoon popped out, checked how much pylons the man has, owned his dt or reaver build afterwards.
But a little while ago, some protoss user started doing what I fear most: he proxied one of his pylons for no reason at all. He just scouted, and because I wasn't at the first spot he scouted he put a pylon there, which costs him $0 extra because the probe can move on immediately, and then went for his regular solid observer-including strategy after he killed my scout scv.
I haven't seen any pro toss do this, ever, in any gmae. Why not? it's so powerful ffs..
what am I supposed to do when I notice the protoss build is secret?
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type gg and press f10 e s q 
just try scouting every base's corners and you'll be fine
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well I think it's pretty self-explanatory that it's not a good idea to look for the hidden pylon.. 
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I do this occasionally because it's cool :O
p.s The faster way is alt+q q
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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
what exactly is the proxy pylon. just building tech/misc outside of your main in another? what happens if enemy scout runs across that first
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The protoss player builds it in a place where the enemy scout won't normally come. Even if the terran is incredibly lucky, finding the the pylon gives him very, very little advantage
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E-bay near his main to lift it and scout for that goon/obs build. If he still doesn't have more then 1 gate go for some turets and counter.
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i used to do that almost always
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thats was standard build for me too,not proxy'ing that pylon i would consider unusual.
What should you the terran do?play safe and waste time scouting for it,so i can expand and later kill you.
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waste of $100 if u ask me...
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Yeah, too much risk to waste 100 minerals ..
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What risk man. I build pylons all over the map. Early warning for anything.
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It'd be fun in a series of games where you play generally standard in each one. Or if you proxy tech in one.. then do that. 
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Norway10161 Posts
Grot can't you just continue with a safe build? Sure there are some differences between countering reaver or dt, but it's not like you have to win or lose the game in the first 3 minutes.
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just keep on the moderate building if u failed to get useful info
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On February 01 2004 02:31 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
waste of $100 if u ask me...
that's really the point: it doesn't cost $100, you would have built the pylon anyway you are just building it in another place
On February 02 2004 03:00 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Grot can't you just continue with a safe build? Sure there are some differences between countering reaver or dt, but it's not like you have to win or lose the game in the first 3 minutes.
That's just giving the protoss what he wants IMO
On January 31 2004 02:14 surv wrote:
E-bay near his main to lift it and scout for that goon/obs build. If he still doesn't have more then 1 gate go for some turets and counter.
That's a pretty reasonable answer but i'm still getting ripped off $125 and maybe I still won't know what's going on..
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That's a pretty reasonable answer but i'm still getting ripped off $125 and maybe I still won't know what's going on..
Well he is building a pylon somewere u cant see so well i guess ur gonna make turets anyway in order to play safe. And what do u mean u wont see whats going on. U ll be scouting either mass goon or opnly 1 gate.1 gate ur bay will live. Mass goon means he isnt cheesing.
He will have the option of DT or Reaver. U need detection and/or anti drop to buy some time in order to mass and kill him. So that 125 will be very well spended imo.
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use your imagination and come up with a terran build order that can deal with stuff like this without losing too much
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Make a couple extra marines and have them patrol around the map. I think NTT or Boxer did this one game, he found the Protoss secret proxy reaver!
was teh gg, Protoss still won. 
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On February 03 2004 13:56 surv wrote:
U need detection and/or anti drop to buy some time in order to mass and kill him. So that 125 will be very well spended imo.
why does everyone keep telling me to give the protoss player exactly what he wants?
If a protoss proxies one of his pylons then goes straight goon/obs (wasting $0) and I am wasting my money on an early ebay AND turrets, you think this is a good thing for me or what?
On February 03 2004 19:04 SoMuchBetter wrote:
use your imagination and come up with a terran build order that can deal with stuff like this without losing too much
I know it's not like I lose every game where a pylon is proxied, far from it, I just want to know why the strat is unpopular for p users (ok so some p's use it, but if it has no disadvantage everyone should normally be using it)
I haven't seen any pro toss do this, ever, in any game. Why not? it's so powerful ffs..
still no one? I'm getting pretty sure that there's quite simply no disadvantage at all for the protoss player to proxy one of his pylons, all of you protosses who dont use it are just lazy
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Norway10161 Posts
float your rax to their base when you find it
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i did not say to build turets right away. doesn't gundam always lift rax after 4 riens. So yea lift the rax.
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grot, the answer to ur question (why everyone dont use it), assuming ur premises are true (no disadvantage to the p) would be:
ignorance
but anyways, what ur really asking, i guess, is "there's no disadvantage right? right? am i missing something?" and then the answer is.. i dunno. it seems like making the terran paranoid is worth losing a pylon way way down the line. maybe i'm missing something too.
edit again: ok here's one situation where the open proxy pylon might hurt.. if u get cheesed hardcore. then u only have 1 pylon on ur gate, and, if u get really unlucky, he kills ur other pylon on the way. so ud be psilocked (pun and coinage) and then ud be stuck with ur 1 goon and probes or whatever, no zeal on the way, and probably never get anything out of that gate again. it's possible i guess. maybe?
edit again: ok well if the pylon is proxied at another main, then they wont kill it on the way. but they still could potentially get your pylon supporting the gates a little easier. not as big of an advantage as i thought tho, since the other pylon (at some other main) would be too out of the way for a cheeser to get most likely
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hahahahah stimey you are amazing, i loved your post it was really funny and insightful - maybe i should start proxy BBS's-ing protoss every once in a hundred games right? lol ~~
and surv and moon you're both right and nice try again but the barracks reaches the opponent's base waaaay before you have to make your choice in any position on LT except 6vs9
I know because i do that lift thing too it helps a little bit thats true
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i know that. Thats why i said E-Bay.
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Norway10161 Posts
Ok i'm sorry but let me get an idea of your problem. I understand that because a pylon is from the protoss main you fear hidden tech, either DT or reaver.
And you cant float you barrack because it will arrive too fast (im guessing you mean too slow)
1st I really don't see the big problem. Sure they miss a pylon but cant you just poke at their ramp with your four marines or something, if they have hidden tech only one goon, and sure you can at least slip an scv in.
2nd you can play safe and expand with turrets and solid defense.
3rd just scout for the silly pylon with 2 scv's.
4th build the silly ebayand float it, its not like 125 mins are a big deal, and the recon is prolly worth it anyway. Zerg players sacrifice overlords everygam anyway and I dont see them dying from it.
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pfff you want me to build an ebay so early that I can scout his base with it and still have time to build a turret and defend against the earliest possible dt rush, i'd have to build the engineering bay before my second fact, i'd have to scout earlier, i'd also have to build 3 turrets to defend against every possible cheese that can come with it, to end up with a triple build slowdown, $300+ wasted and only a single opening left for me to go for (good old "fast" exp, it wont even really be fast anymore and 90% of the tosses will be expecting it ;(..)yes i think this is a big problem and i'd rather die than overload my opponent with christmas presents just because he built a pylon somewhere else
but really, my question "there's really no disadvantage, right?" has been answered, so thanks
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Norway28781 Posts
going no turret in the first place is just as cheesy as dt dropping
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eri knows how to scout a toss with a single dragoon on his ramp anyway :O
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On February 11 2004 01:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:
going no turret in the first place is just as cheesy as dt dropping
an interesting point of view, but if this is your opinion, how can a terran player ever threaten a fast expanding protoss on gaema gowon (for example) without resorting to (what you call) cheese? you really think he should get an early scanner or ..?
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Netherlands2766 Posts
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Netherlands2766 Posts
+ i think proxy pylons are scoutable. They hardly leave their base for goon attacks so why not just scout with the rine. They always make them in the same spots, so it's not that big a waste.
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I think it's a dangerous assumption, saying that you will find the proxy pylon just like that
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Never heard about proxy pylons. If you feel something is not right, just go two facts. Just Play safe -_-;.
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turn maphack on, look on minimap for little dot
then attack it.
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grot's whole point is that toss can always proxy pylon and get a lot of their terran opponents to "play it safe" vs them even though they are actually doing their normal strong build. toss gain an advantage against him in this situation because he's forced to play it safe, he wants to know if there's any way to avoid giving up this advantage.
well for one thing, you could assume he is only proxying a pylon. this is a bad option imo but it depends on who you are playing, i guess.
let's just assume that if you play it safe vs the kinds of thing a toss would hide (reav and dt or an extra gate maybe, or carriers ive seen some noob do in vanilla), meanwhile the toss only proxied a pylon, that you have given the toss some advantage. ok, so assuming that ... you have to play UNSAFE against the potential other proxies in order to do what you are hoping to accomplish. same thing i said in the above paragraph, i guess. same option.
so the question remains, is there some other option? i dont see how, because, well, either you play to stop the dt, for instance, or you dont.
you could try to pressure the opponent early (as gundam's approach does) and get a feel for if you think he's teching or not based on his units. and if you think he's teching, not only do you start getting turrets but you start scouting for a proxy. or maybe you scout for a proxy the minute you see a missing pylon anyways, would it hurt that badly?
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you're right about everything except you can't gundam first and then "feel" what is going on while there was a proxy pylon, because the possibility exists that there is already a dt in your base by that time
you see, normally your scout is in his base going around and around and all that time he can't start building dt because you would see it, while when he is getting a proxy pylon he can get the dt tech buildings as soon as he has the money, ending up with dt before your mine research is even completed, making turrets your only way out
edit : by this time i've found that starting your factory before your second supply is a good way out of this mess, i'm actually considering to change my standard build
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... i dont see what ur worried about with a stray pylon. if ur worried bout hidden tech go vults. grab 4-5 then pop 1 tank and have him at home with either turrets or mines wateva u have available. besides dts and reavers can be avoided. refer to reaver scv micro threads, just run the scvs and make a turret or 2. it sounds like u have issues with toss harass...
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On February 12 2004 03:22 SpuniasauR wrote:
... i dont see what ur worried about with a stray pylon. if ur worried bout hidden tech go vults. grab 4-5 then pop 1 tank and have him at home with either turrets or mines wateva u have available. besides dts and reavers can be avoided. refer to reaver scv micro threads, just run the scvs and make a turret or 2. it sounds like u have issues with toss harass...
I am under the impression that you didn't read anything in the thread except the title "proxy pylon", right?
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Netherlands2766 Posts
What's so hard about find proxy pylons? With lost temple in front of me and given his position and yours i can point at most 2 positions IT MUST be at.
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well he also cant do his "normal build" while you're still scouting because you'll see whether or not his gate, range, robo are on time or delayed. he has to wait until you get out of his base to do those things right? so if you pressure him, and he is going dt too fast, he has less units resisting, so then you get more turrets? i know, sounds a bit hard, but maybe its possible
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grot if u go fac before 2nd suply what about the marines and what about the bamboo? Do u think that gundam would change his build vs a proxy pylon? It just is not that important and u should not let it get to u like this.
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i don't know what gundam would do against a proxy pylon.. he would just ignore it and go bamboo anyway, he is crazy
i changed the build still getting 2 depots before factory but not 2 marines anymore, it's a little better against dt now because i get my factory earlier
gundam's build is probably better but if i don't understand it, i can't wield it
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On February 12 2004 07:19 RaSZi[s.R] wrote:
What's so hard about find proxy pylons? With lost temple in front of me and given his position and yours i can point at most 2 positions IT MUST be at.
even if you are the master gosu who can always find the proxy pylon (and there are really a lot of places where it can be, no matter what you say) , what does the protoss care? he is just putting a pylon there, not a tech or something. My point is that protoss players should do this because it doesn't have a disadvantage.
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Netherlands2766 Posts
Then stop whining about what to do as a terran.
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Netherlands2766 Posts
On February 13 2004 12:40 GroT wrote:
i don't know what gundam would do against a proxy pylon.. he would just ignore it and go bamboo anyway, he is crazy
i changed the build still getting 2 depots before factory but not 2 marines anymore, it's a little better against dt now because i get my factory earlier
gundam's build is probably better but if i don't understand it, i can't wield it
i really think it's chobo making 2 marines for fact.
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i think gundam has more speed than you, basically. he can try to bail himself out in time with mines and turrets and if the toss has lots of units he can bail himself out with micro
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On February 13 2004 12:40 GroT wrote:
i don't know what gundam would do against a proxy pylon.. he would just ignore it and go bamboo anyway, he is crazy
i changed the build still getting 2 depots before factory but not 2 marines anymore, it's a little better against dt now because i get my factory earlier
gundam's build is probably better but if i don't understand it, i can't wield it
2 depots before factory withour marines will get you killed very often versus a dragoon push at your wall. the marines are necessary and very usefull if you gundam. they shoot at a possible shuttle, they are really powerfull inside a bunker and deal lots of damage to dragoons.
i think protoss doesnt do that proxy pylon very often cause i would go 2 factory vultures, cause that is quite a good build vs dark templar(drop) and reaver builds and after defending and trying to do damage with the vultures, chances are good youll find the pylon and the mobile vultures can probably kill it for free.
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how about doing a good build and not a crappy one? ;\ also scout beter and justown them with 2 fact vultures
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all you need to stop goons/zeals is a wallin, one fast tank, scv(s) near depot based on what you scout (intelligently), i.e. you need scv waiting there if he's trying some crazy zeal shit
that's IT, and i dont know why you wouldn't do it. the more terran that don't wall in the more protoss should start proxy 2 gate zealing into photons
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On February 17 2004 07:56 Sadist wrote:
how about doing a good build and not a crappy one? ;\ also scout beter and justown them with 2 fact vultures Whats so crappy about his build?
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EPT
