Since burrow only costs 100 minerals and 100 gas and can be researched at any point of the game I don't understand why it is so little used.
The most useful use of this great ability is burrowing drones under from drops and vulture/zealot raids. In almost every ZvP or ZvT Zerg is going to lose a ton of drones in a situation where the Zerg could have just burrowed their drones to save them. Every game has worked harassment and this seems like a very good preventative measure.
There's also tons of other useful uses of this ability like hiding zerglings everywhere or hydras to surprise air units.
When progamers do get this ability it always seems like they get to use it enough to be worth the small cost, but there's just so few games I see Zerg use it. Why?
It's only useful for scouting, and most zergs would rather just use an overlord or have their army patrolling. You usually get it against a strat that revolves around harass, like Sair/Reaver.
Anyway, if you get it early enough to make a big difference the 100min/gas is a bit expensive, and by the time it doesn't matter you have enough ovies/units that it's not needed.
i just used it against a onebase protoss as soon i realized he went sair/dt into expo. burrow finished just in the right second, delaying his expo for SO long
On November 24 2009 00:14 BeefyEnchilada wrote: It's only useful for scouting, and most zergs would rather just use an overlord or have their army patrolling. You usually get it against a strat that revolves around harass, like Sair/Reaver.
Anyway, if you get it early enough to make a big difference the 100min/gas is a bit expensive, and by the time it doesn't matter you have enough ovies/units that it's not needed.
This is flat out wrong, it's not only useful for scouting.
You see progamers use it to save tons of Drones from harassment, and they use groups of burrowed Hydras to surprise airunits.
I'd say that the best burrow use is saving Drones from economic harassment which happens in every single game (unless Zerg is rolling their opponent). The minerals you save from remaking Drones is more than enough to cover the initial research. The only real expense is the 100 gas. The larvae you can spend on units instead of Drones should be worth that small investment.
It is also useful in zvp vs any harrass that doesn't include HTs, because quite often there is no observer. In zvt, burrow counters eraser beautifully. Doesn't help vs other lategame stuff though, because of terran maphack. In zvz it could be used for some cheesy stuff, but usually 100/100 is way too expensive for that mu.
Generally, in the later stages of midgame burrow seems like a good investment to me. If you get it earlier you better have some strategy that makes more use of it (or you are as lucky as flothefreak )
I always get burrow when I play Iccup vs. T and P mid game. It not only makes scouting and anti harrasement easier, it also makes surrounding a lot easier 2. I can take out the first push of medics and marines with like 2.5 to 3 control groups of lings.
I think that it could be more widely used... but only in zvp. I haven't seen an eraser in zvt in forever. Usually though... its not completely necessary. If you run your drones fast enough then you don't need burrow, and your scouting can be done with overlords instead of burrowing lings. But recently we have seen progamers use it a little more often.
It saves drones from vults/reavers, but from HT it doesn't. So say you're zerg, you see a shuttle fly in your base... are you gonna take the chance and just burrow? cause if you burrow you're losing 5~6 drones almost for sure if it's HT. But if you wait till the unit drops... well that reaver is gonna get it's shot off, and it'll still kill a couple drones. Basically you're taking a chance, the only time burrow is really useful against harassment i would say is against DTs. Since Terran has their scan... (Which is think is a little ridic. lol), burrowing won't do much at all, it's much better to run. And toss's harassment with HT, or Reaver just needs to see the drone for a moment, and you're F-ed either way if you burrow. But if you run your drones, you can run 'em before the shuttle/dropship gets too close to your drones, and you get to save a lot more drones. This is minimal, but there is that short mining time that the drone gets to mine in the "other base" it ran to. I know it makes almost no difference, but hey, who knows, that + the 3, 4, extra drones you didn't lose to that storm might.
I've seen it used for scouting purposes, but that's when you can pay attention to the minimap really well. At low/mid level, you don't see the minimap as often as you should. But if you have the zergling just haning out there, not burrowed, you still get the scouting (just as much scouting against shuttle/dropships), and against ground units, you get that thing that says "you're units are under attack" which at low/mid level we're much more likely to notice than just a couple red dots that you barely see. So at high level, sure it'll save you 5, 10 lings throughout the game, but at our level, we're more likely to miss the army that goes by.
One useful thing i suppose is for stopping expos. Not letting the nexus/CC be built. Well... against terran it doesn't really work... again, scan... against toss, pretty useful, damn annoying when they do it to me. (i'm a toss player so...) but when i see burrow i can usually safely assume that their tech is prob. pretty slow. so i end up using DTs more, and to be honest, i think it makes up for it. that 100 gas early means either slower ovie speed upgrade, or slower lurk/mutal tech. So just a little harass with DTs, and stand a DT on the ramp and build cannons around my nex first.... idk if it's worth it or not.
Catching air units with burrowed hydra is some hard junk. I've never seen anyone do it THAT well (obviously except for in the pros, especially jaedong). Sure if you get it once it's prob. totally worth that 100/100 you spent, but you still have to have at least 5, 6 hydras burrowed and not fighting with your army for every point you wanna "defend" against drops. Zerg having a lot of bases usually, would mean at least 12, 18 hydras just randoming chillin out, not fighting. And i think that COULD make a difference.
I use burrow only when protoss is going sair reaver so i could spy on map with lings and saving drones from reaver harras. Also 10 hydra burowed is perfect trap against shuttles full with reavers.
Other than this i think its not worth it research it.
Burrow works against DTs and reavers has harassment but not against storm. This is probably why zergs don't use it. Against zealot harass you either use the drones to fuck up the zealots attack by bugging them through or you maynard them away to safety. Normally you can do this before dying a single drone if you saw the shuttle or units a few seconds before they came to your drones.
Against reaver sair obv burrow is extremely good and almost a must (atleast for 3 base zerg imo which lets face it 99% of the games consist of). Reavers are easily scouted with burrowed lings all around your bases and the instantaneosness of burrow makes it great against the harass itself. Also burrowed hydras can be a game winner in those games.
I feel like when everyone started to realise that they should bind their f-keys to main nat and third all types of harassments were easier to deal with by just maynarding instantly. The downside to this is that if the shuttle comes in at an angle where the drones moves towards it they would be vulnerable still. But mostly to storm drops and burrow is useless against those.
Also lastly burrow doesn't counter harass in itself. You also need units there to clean it up. I think people rather spend some money on a few extra scourge that will be useful in more than just one situation.
I honestly think that burrow is underused. And I dont even mean for saving drones, just look how beautifully effort used it against light a few days ago. I tried a variation of his 3 hatch lurker build except I used it for defensive measures and I gotta say, unburrowing a group of zerglings right behind his first marine push while hes shooting at the zerglings attacking from the front = beautiful amounts of marine blood.
Having a group of burrowed units be detected and chopped up while they are still underground sucks. Mostly it sucks because if they are hotkeyed, you have to manually unburrow each little critter rather than pressing 1u.
On November 24 2009 02:14 Ideas wrote: you guys know that terran can scan right?
Yeah, I guess they may scan a mineral line if its empty to search for burrow... but what are the chances they are gonna use scans in the open field to look for burrowed lings?
But whenever I try to use it in a real game, I end up forgetting that I have it researched.
I think it's because there's enough to do in this game already without trying to do burrowing tactics. But it might be a useful thing for more gosu players to try out.
On November 24 2009 07:22 Saracen wrote: The main problem I see is that it's hard to fit it in your early game build because the gas cost messes up your tech timings.
Yup this is exactly the problem. But that's what was also so brilliant about efforts build. Since he didnt build mutas (but tricked light into thinking so) he made Light waste minerals on defenses while he was going for lurkers after all. The lurkers are much later than on a normal 3 hatch lurker build but he doesn't need them because of how effectively he used his burrow-using zerglings. Plus he then had the 1100 (-100) spare gas he would have used for mutas.
Beyond saving drones from harrassment, I don't see too much point in the ability. I don't want part of my army burrowed all over the place unless setting up some kind of trap.. I want to maintain map control which can't really be done with half your units hidding everywhere.
Everyone knows that it saves your drones from eraser, but you still see erasers killing lots of drones. I think pros just forget to research it. Burrow also has many uses that you don't often see in pro games. Against a mech build, if I don't see an early expo, I get burrow if I can remember. It's probably some kind of vulture drop or 2 fact runby, and mines don't go for burrowed drones. If you see an expo before it's finished researching you can always cancel it. It didn't take any extra money because you were going to save that for your spire completion anyway.
Against protoss, it saves drones very well against zeals and dts. It's very handy for muta stacking when you have overlord speed. It's become standard against reaver sair. Against zerg, 100/100 it probably isn't worth the money. The one situation where it might be useful is if you have a superior muta count and your opponent's only chance is to backstab your drones while you overextend yourself somewhere. But in this case it's only insurance because you've won anyway if you're careful.
To take out burrowed units without using scan simply put a couple of medics and firebats over their position and attack the medics with the firebats, the splash will kill the burrowed units ^^
I think burrow is underused too, very nice for saving drones from erasers and surprise raping shuttles+dropships with burrowed hydra.
I remember back in the day when testie would go fast burrow against protoss players to delay their natural (this was when most protoss went 1gate or 2gate into expo)
On November 24 2009 09:45 Wonders wrote: Everyone knows that it saves your drones from eraser, but you still see erasers killing lots of drones. I think pros just forget to research it. Burrow also has many uses that you don't often see in pro games. Against a mech build, if I don't see an early expo, I get burrow if I can remember. It's probably some kind of vulture drop or 2 fact runby, and mines don't go for burrowed drones. If you see an expo before it's finished researching you can always cancel it. It didn't take any extra money because you were going to save that for your spire completion anyway.
Against protoss, it saves drones very well against zeals and dts. It's very handy for muta stacking when you have overlord speed. It's become standard against reaver sair. Against zerg, 100/100 it probably isn't worth the money. The one situation where it might be useful is if you have a superior muta count and your opponent's only chance is to backstab your drones while you overextend yourself somewhere. But in this case it's only insurance because you've won anyway if you're careful.
On November 25 2009 07:18 Trozz wrote: Oh my effing G. You can stack with *burrowed* lings?! That's friggan awesome.
It's standard for me to get it right after I get my 11th muta against T or P because of that..... Isn't it that way for everyone?
EDIT - and I'll make a control group of a dozen lings, and spread them all around the map (expansions, major paths, etc), then click the hotkey again after 20 seconds, and burrow all the lings, then use the hotkey for something else. It's an easy way to send burrowed lings all over the place, which is great for watching movements, and finding out about "hidden expansions", all at the cost of 100/100 plus the cost of lings. It's not a good way to use the first few hundred gas, but once consumption gets into the thousands, it definitely competes with other options for usefulness. 1 extra lurker, while nice, is rarely what is going to make a difference once you have more than 1 control group. That extra information can make much more of a difference in a game. At least at the level I play at.
You can go watch pretty much any game with a zerg involved and find situations where burrow would of been very useful.
There is no logical reason why it's not used more beyond "they are very very VERY fickle with what they buy" or "they forget it's good" or their build is too structured to upgrade it early game (mid-late should be able to tho).
I'm just a C- player, but I been using burrow for quite a long time in zvp now. I research burrow when I do my mid game switch to mutalisk. Then I send a zergling to every expo on the map and burrow them. With burrow, I can mutalisk micro without having to worry that my overlord is getting too close to my mutalisk. delay the protoss expansion by blocking his buildings and sending in lings to kill his warping cannons, gather intelligence by burrowing lings around the map.
Burrow is a underrated ability. It's so useful and so cheap. It's hard to justify spending 100/100 in the early game, but by the midgame, 100/100 is nothing.
On November 25 2009 08:24 T.O.P. wrote: I'm just a C- player, but I been using burrow for quite a long time in zvp now. I research burrow when I do my mid game switch to mutalisk. Then I send a zergling to every expo on the map and burrow them. With burrow, I can mutalisk micro without having to worry that my overlord is getting too close to my mutalisk. delay the protoss expansion by blocking his buildings and sending in lings to kill his warping cannons, gather intelligence by burrowing lings around the map.
Burrow is a underrated ability. It's so useful and so cheap. It's hard to justify spending 100/100 in the early game, but by the midgame, 100/100 is nothing.
Really awesome that this is done. I would very much like to see some reps
i've recently been laying down the pain with burrow in earlygame zvt... basically i'm that bad that i generally forget to get my lair until i have 200 gas anyways, so i get burrow at about the same time, and burrow 12-18 lings outside his nat... if he moves out before vessels, he looses everything in that push... but this is D so i can't really vouch for it being a decent strat! i think the surprise is worth it, i had a T player run his mnm over a spot of ground where he'd just seen me burrow... and then scan just as i unburrowed... i have no idea what he thought he was doing!
Burrowing your lings when you go semi/all-in is absolutely deadly against Terran when they move out to force sunkens. Unburrowing lings right around a group of MnM is very powerful if you can anticipate exactly where the MnM will walk (aka burrow your lings right outside his base, on the most likley travel path, or -my favourite- burrowing your lings away from your nat to trap MnM
i think the 'too much apm required' argument is nonsense personally, burrowed units would seem to need less apm to handle as you can just leave them alone!
if you take the lings you would normally have to threaten to backstab a terran player and burrow them right outside his base, either he sees them, and can't move out until he has enough scans etc, or he doesn't and you kill his mnm force... its aggressive, but i don't see it being 'all-in'
if you have units grouped with your lurkers you cant just click burrow like you normally can and just have the lurkers burrow....all your shit will burrow =p
On November 26 2009 15:40 RoieTRS wrote: Burrow drones are overrated. TvZ can just scan, and who wouldn't? Free drone kills.
but you can do a nice micro against 2 starports. like burrow the drone they're focusing on. also burrow is a pain in the ass when you're going reaver/sairs. burrowed idras can definatly eat shuttles in no time
I've started using it every ZvP in the midgame. If you open Lurkers instead of Hydras (after Scourge), Protoss can get way ahead by going third base before Robo. Burrowing Zerglings there stops that and confuses them.
On November 26 2009 16:51 yarkO wrote: not doubting you chill, but how does a protoss take a 3rd base before robo when lurkers come out? maybe I am missing a piece of the puzzle
It is used in ZvP lol.. Maybe a bit underused in ZvP but still. its not used in ZvT because sAviOr never bothered with it so why should anyone else.
But uhh.. ZvT is too low-econ and gas heavy imo. 100gas is a lurker opposed to a hydralisk which is more useful than burrowing the hydralisk and it getting shot at by medics and marines while it is burrowed.
Im sure queens are really good too when you have 600apm. And... Also when I attack, I select the lurkers, not Control+Click because then all the lurkers burrow, and I only want certain ones to burrow. So when I burrow my lurkers, I would rather that my zerglings didnt burrow with them.
If you have a lot of apm in zvt, then use it to put defilers in overlords, or use queens to ensnare, not burrowing units.
And no, burrowing drones wont do too much good in zvt. You burrow them so terran can just scan and kill them all? lool, at least some will get away if you make them mine from nat.
EDIT: Wow.. I sound like a know-it-all-douchebag lol, i don't mean to I swear. -_-
On November 26 2009 16:27 Chill wrote: I've started using it every ZvP in the midgame. If you open Lurkers instead of Hydras (after Scourge), Protoss can get way ahead by going third base before Robo. Burrowing Zerglings there stops that and confuses them.
yea i agree with this.
i respect all that u guys are saying about burrowing right where the nexus should be put down.
but personally, isnt it better to burrow just a little bit away from that position? therefore, u can see exactly what bases ur enemy has, and he doesnt know that u have burrowed stuff. as a result, u can basically kill all of ur opp's bases.
On November 26 2009 16:27 Chill wrote: I've started using it every ZvP in the midgame. If you open Lurkers instead of Hydras (after Scourge), Protoss can get way ahead by going third base before Robo. Burrowing Zerglings there stops that and confuses them.
yea i agree with this.
i respect all that u guys are saying about burrowing right where the nexus should be put down.
but personally, isnt it better to burrow just a little bit away from that position? therefore, u can see exactly what bases ur enemy has, and he doesnt know that u have burrowed stuff. as a result, u can basically kill all of ur opp's bases.
The goal of it is to delay their expo as much as possible though. Sure having one burrowed next to the spot will let you see them making it but so will a quick ovie scout and it won't really make any difference for attempted expo snipes, but making them wait for either observer to arrive or for cannon to make is well worth it.
On November 27 2009 00:46 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: isnt it better to burrow just a little bit away from that position? therefore, u can see exactly what bases ur enemy has, and he doesnt know that u have burrowed stuff. as a result, u can basically kill all of ur opp's bases.
Oh yeah. I'd definitely take knowledge of an expansion I can scout anyway over delaying it for up to two or three minutes, every time. No contest.
Stop lurkers and burrowed lings aren't similar at all because the lings don't attack immediately after unburrowing. The lings take some shots from the marines before, so the surprise factor doesn't really do all that much. Stop lurkers massacre tons of stuff instantly before they are retaliated upon.
It's the same deal as not getting Observer speed. The cost doesn't translate into usefulness. End and Mid game Terran and Protoss armies always have Detectors with them so they'll definitely be aware of any burrowed units in their path. If you burrow at an expansion, Terran will scan and kill and Protoss will send an Observer and kill. If you can kill the probe with just a Zergling that's sitting there, it'll be much better for obvious reasons.
Also, every burrowed ling is a ling that isn't with your army. Enough of those add up.
Besides, why do you need map hack when lings are fast and cheap, which means that you can just suicide one to get an accurate read on your opponent's army?
The only time when they can be justified is late game ZvT as a counter to erasers and Sair/Reaver ZvP to ambush and get a free map hack.
I always get burrow to counter erasers and dt drops. But being crappy as I am, during hectic battles, I burrow my defilers/lings when trying to select lurkers and burrow.
Other than that, I think burrow is really underused. Especially with muta stackings, denying expos and against mech armies with late vessels(Against heavy hydra army)
On November 28 2009 23:36 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: The question is: What would you rather have, an extra mutalisk or the ability to get Zerg Observers for 25 minerals?
Thats not the question at all... once a vessel comes out burrow is negated. zerg uses overlords as observers to take a look at the map. and its easier to just run a few lings out and see where the army movement is. 1 extra muta does a shitload of damage. you also have to consider the fact that you are researching early in the game when 100 gas could be used for a lair.
Burrow is insane, I've gone 9 pool gas, with burrow vs Terran, Burrow gets done when Terran is about to plant CC - just suicide in and burrow. Delays Terrans Nat so long and if you succeed in denying scout, lurkers is just free rape.
On November 27 2009 00:46 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: isnt it better to burrow just a little bit away from that position? therefore, u can see exactly what bases ur enemy has, and he doesnt know that u have burrowed stuff. as a result, u can basically kill all of ur opp's bases.
Oh yeah. I'd definitely take knowledge of an expansion I can scout anyway over delaying it for up to two or three minutes, every time. No contest.
if ur talking about early game, then yes. since ur opp doesnt have mobile detection, its more useful to delay. im talking about when ur opp already has, say, obs, or comsat, or that kinda stuff. if he knows u have a ling there, he can bring an obs or scan. would that delay him for "2 or 3 min"? of course not. the other method is to burrow away from the cc/nex, and ur opp would never think of putting detection there because he thinks that theres nothing going on. therefore, u dont have to waste units to go scout, especially if ur opp is controlling the map ferociously.
On November 29 2009 00:18 Lobbo wrote: Burrow is insane, I've gone 9 pool gas, with burrow vs Terran, Burrow gets done when Terran is about to plant CC - just suicide in and burrow. Delays Terrans Nat so long and if you succeed in denying scout, lurkers is just free rape.
I've found some usefulness in burrow in ZvZ at D level (which means nothing I know, since everything works at D). I get it once I'm comfortably on 2 gasses. The uses are:
1. Protects your drones from mutas, since they will die very quickly to attacks at this point. 2. Gives you a way to scout without risking overlords. 3. Gives you a way to muta stack without risking overlords. 4. Delays your opponent's 3rd while you take your 3rd, since, they will have only slow overlords and probably will be keeping them in their bases so that they don't get sniped.
Get it midgame then. Can defilers burrow without research like lurkers? If not, then here's a way to make defilers/zerglings for consume stay safe. After all, while lurkers/lings are assaulting Terran under Swarm, I hardly think Terran will often scan to see where burrowed defiler/lings are and concentrate on getting the defiler
I havent really thought this out much or used it, but could burrowing units such as zerglings or hurt hydras directly ontop of lurkers prevent a terran from irradiating them, or atleast hinder it.
Last night on HBR I played a D Zerg who buried a ling at every possible expo location. My tech tree had already been decimated so I didn't have obs. It sucked.
On December 11 2009 11:33 WolfMother wrote: I havent really thought this out much or used it, but could burrowing units such as zerglings or hurt hydras directly ontop of lurkers prevent a terran from irradiating them, or atleast hinder it.
Wow, this question here is very interesting. I would love if someone tried this in a real game.
Also, what about burrowing a defiler with some zerglings around? If the terran comes to irradiate, he will need to search on each of those burrowed units to find the defiler, since the graphics are the same, and even if they get it, they will have to invest more micro into it, which will benefit zerg in the long run.
On November 24 2009 02:26 ZBiR wrote: because the zerg have it so easy even without it
well played
you should be ashamed of saying this as a Terran. ZvT is a huge uphill battle while TvZ is a fun downhill battle
Back to topic, I think burrow lings can be used to deny Terran his early CC without detection. Of course, 14 CC is going to come sooner than burrowlings but I'm talking about somewhat delayed fast CC.
And not just 1 ling but a bunch of lings correctly spaced apart so that T can't just land his CC somewhere near the optimal spot
actually-- if a terran is dropping in your main with the typical, wouldn't you not want to burrow your drones? cause if he scanned, then they wouldn't be able to run. I'd imagine that running your drones out would be safer, but maybe it's just me..
If this has been said in this thread already, my bad.
Once you transition out of the early mid-game, I would have to think that researching burrow wouldn't be a huge economic burden. Especially if you give scouting some sort of relative cost-value. Putting burrowed zerglings around the map is a cheap way to get a scouting edge. The concerns people raise over APM requirements would seem to be meted by proper practice on the map you are playing.
I tend to use burrow a lot. Maybe thats why I'm a D+ player, though I dont chalk my low level up to using burrow. I usually use it mid and late game, to hide troop movement/numbers. I also use it in fein attacks if no detectors are present or i kill them, but cant outright win the battle (esp against speed zealots) then flank with other groups and unburrow. I feel it can also be used to keep an ever present threat at an expansion if you burrow a few hydras and keep popping up and killing miners. I think its very case specific, and i think it would work best against protoss. I'm gonna try using zerglings stacked on lurkers next terran game i play where there is heavy sci vessel play and see how it works, Ill post the vod when I do.
EPT
)
