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On November 04 2009 09:53 Artosis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +im not sure if the way i will type out some of my thoughts here is exactly what you want, but let me know if you want me to reword some of it or something:
Medusa:
PvT: 10/15 and 12nexus are the best builds on this map.
10/15: low-ground with a reasonable distance from mainbase to mainbase always make this a strong build order (think of maps such as tau cross and how often you see 10/15 there)
12nex: the mineral only base behind the main base is impossible for terran to rush because of the high ground up to it and the distance from the terran main. also add in that the safest build for terran is really fast siege mode due to the strength of the 10/15 gate.
TvP: siege expand and 2fact
siege expand: best way to stop 10/15, and you have an easy 3 base play, even off of 1 factory.
2fact: because of the ridiculous strength of 10/15 and 12nexus on this map, unless you are in the C channel, almost everyone will do one of those strategies. 2fact can crush both if done correctly.
maybe if i remember i'll add a matchup on a map each day. could be my morning routine or something. just pm me again diamondback, see if i can get a pattern going lol.
You rock Artosis! Thank you so much, maybe your involvement will get more people to contribute to this cause! I will put in your material later tonight sometime. And yea that is perfect, but basically you Idra, Ret, and a VERY select few can pretty much just put the info however you want. You are what I would beyond call a reliable source! Maybe you can con Idra, Ret, and Tasteless to chip in, that's if Idra isn't worried bout a bunch of foringers getting good  (lol just playing Idra)!!!
Well that got me excited to hear from a baller like Artosis! Now it's your turn everyone, gimme what you got!
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On November 04 2009 10:21 n.DieJokes wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Destination, ZvP: HoeJJa build-Overpool-gas (remove drones after mining 200) -Drones till 10 -10-12 lings -Speed with first hundred gas, burrow with second hundred -After lings take your expansion's, continue with standard play -When burrow finishes stack you zerglings next to the P's back mineral patch (right in the nook) on top of one another, unburrow all at once and glitch through. Notes: Only works against FE, it's a cheese but it doesn't devestate your economy. If P's doesn't scout, you get to ravage their main. If P does scout it, the cannons their forced to set up in defense leaves the game relatively even. Why it works: Abuses Destinations unique map set-up, for 100/100 you get to pop 6-8 lings directly into P's main before they have anything but cannons. Link:
Do you have a formal name for the HoeJJa build? I do not see it on Liquipdia but my knowledge of Zerg builds is pretty bad so I might be missing it.
And thanks again Artosis! I got all your info entered, I just cleaned up the wording a bit. Let me know if you see any mistakes! (It might be in the draft section is Aesop has not approved the changes yet)
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On November 04 2009 11:41 Diamondback2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 10:21 n.DieJokes wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Destination, ZvP: HoeJJa build-Overpool-gas (remove drones after mining 200) -Drones till 10 -10-12 lings -Speed with first hundred gas, burrow with second hundred -After lings take your expansion's, continue with standard play -When burrow finishes stack you zerglings next to the P's back mineral patch (right in the nook) on top of one another, unburrow all at once and glitch through. Notes: Only works against FE, it's a cheese but it doesn't devestate your economy. If P's doesn't scout, you get to ravage their main. If P does scout it, the cannons their forced to set up in defense leaves the game relatively even. Why it works: Abuses Destinations unique map set-up, for 100/100 you get to pop 6-8 lings directly into P's main before they have anything but cannons. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8jSyOTylAM Do you have a formal name for the HoeJJa build? I do not see it on Liquipdia but my knowledge of Zerg builds is pretty bad so I might be missing it. And thanks again Artosis! I got all your info entered, I just cleaned up the wording a bit. Let me know if you see any mistakes! (It might be in the draft section is Aesop has not approved the changes yet)
I honestly could not tell you where I heard the name HoeJJa build, I think I made have made the name up but I just added it under that name 
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On November 04 2009 11:48 n.DieJokes wrote:I honestly could not tell you where I heard the name HoeJJa build, I think I made have made the name up but I just added it under that name
Ok well I will look more into it tomorrow.
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I think that players trying to come up with strong builds on their own is an important part of the improvement process, and a great way to develop a more intimate understanding of the game. For example TvP on Destination
with many small choke points lined up across the middle, with the bridges and ramps, splitting the map is a very intelligent thing to do, and play for the late game. It looks fairly easy to secure both a natural and the 10:00/4:00 3rds, so a slow push to there would secure an easy 3 bases. A fast armory work perfectly in this type of play, because it would provide the upgrades for late game, as well as goliaths to fend off likely harassment play from the protoss. Dropships would also be very effective, especially early game, and science vessels are going to be a necessity against the likely arbiters. Considering all of this, I think the two strongest openings would be either 1 fac expand into a flash build, or 1 fac/port vulture drop. Two fact builds would be much weaker against the two tiny ramps, which a small number of dragoons can defend easily.
These musings may be completely wrong, but its important to think of them, try them out, and adjust them from there, or scrap them completely.
edit:
On October 23 2009 15:41 Meta wrote:
The problem with following a specific BO up to 75+ supply is that the game requires that you adapt to your opponent to put yourself into an advantageous situation by that point. It's really up to what your scouting information provides. Also, by then builds could change significantly depending on if you've been harassed, how many expansions you have, etc. That's why you never see BOs past 50 supply or so.
I am going to have to semi-disagree here. Starting any game, you should always have a plan for how you want the game to progress. Starting the game with the mentality that you will just adapt to whatever the opponent is doing is setting yourself up for disaster. While I agree that you shouldn't have set psi number builds up past the mid game, you should have a very clear idea about how you want your play to develop. Playing with your head in the sand is stupid, but so is trying to invent your play on the fly.
Side note: if you have ever played a clean 6 fact timing push, you would know the building timings are very precise up to over 100 supply. This goes for many other builds, although usually to lesser extents.
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On November 04 2009 13:24 alphafuzard wrote:
I am going to have to semi-disagree here. Starting any game, you should always have a plan for how you want the game to progress. Starting the game with the mentality that you will just adapt to whatever the opponent is doing is setting yourself up for disaster. While I agree that you shouldn't have set psi number builds up past the mid game, you should have a very clear idea about how you want your play to develop. Playing with your head in the sand is stupid, but so is trying to invent your play on the fly.
Side note: if you have ever played a clean 6 fact timing push, you would know the building timings are very precise up to over 100 supply. This goes for many other builds, although usually to lesser extents.
Where the hell are the BO's like that at (I mean the whole thing)? I think these would be some useful things to get up on Liquipedia.... I for one could use a BO that goes that deep because I am too new to make right right unit combos in the mid game.
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On November 04 2009 13:57 Diamondback2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 13:24 alphafuzard wrote:
I am going to have to semi-disagree here. Starting any game, you should always have a plan for how you want the game to progress. Starting the game with the mentality that you will just adapt to whatever the opponent is doing is setting yourself up for disaster. While I agree that you shouldn't have set psi number builds up past the mid game, you should have a very clear idea about how you want your play to develop. Playing with your head in the sand is stupid, but so is trying to invent your play on the fly.
Side note: if you have ever played a clean 6 fact timing push, you would know the building timings are very precise up to over 100 supply. This goes for many other builds, although usually to lesser extents.
Where the hell are the BO's like that at (I mean the whole thing)? I think these would be some useful things to get up on Liquipedia.... I for one could use a BO that goes that deep because I am too new to make right right unit combos in the mid game.
They don't exist because precise supply counts would be a ridiculous way to learn a build. You just need to know what order your buildings come in and make them when you have the resources.
In my opinion, protoss players won't benefit from learning build orders past the cybernetics core. They are the most "reactionary" race in a standard macro game. You basically look at what your opponent is doing and adapt to it rather than rely on specific timing attacks.
I think what you're doing (collecting strong opening build orders on certain maps) is fine. Combine that with the proper general concepts and then everything else comes from game experience and watching others.
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On November 05 2009 00:58 Nytefish wrote:
They don't exist because precise supply counts would be a ridiculous way to learn a build. You just need to know what order your buildings come in and make them when you have the resources.
In my opinion, protoss players won't benefit from learning build orders past the cybernetics core. They are the most "reactionary" race in a standard macro game. You basically look at what your opponent is doing and adapt to it rather than rely on specific timing attacks.
I think what you're doing (collecting strong opening build orders on certain maps) is fine. Combine that with the proper general concepts and then everything else comes from game experience and watching others.
Ok guys I understand some people do not use BO's. But this thread is for the people that do. If you don't think BO's help that's fine, but don't post it here, this is a discussion about BO's for particular maps, not a discussion on if BO's are a good thing or not.
Thanks for the input tho!
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
Colosseum 2:
PvT: 12nexus and 10/15 gate are pretty much the best builds on this map again. noteable mention to reaver openings.
12nexus: the nexus itself is unrushable being on the high ground. when you add in the distance from main to main, the fact that its a 4 player map, and the easy add-in of protoss scouting the center really early for proxy barracks, 12 nexus becomes the standard of this map's PvT.
10/15 gate: 10/15 gate is normally used a lot on maps with no high ground for terran to defend on. colosseum2 takes this to the next level, and has high ground outside the wallin. this makes the harassment of dragoons around the large arc + using the high ground, really really hard for terran to defend.
reaver openings: it can be quite easy to harass terran on this map with a reaver in a shuttle. the expansion is on a different level, and up a small ramp, making it hard for terran to circulate units + scvs to defend. add in the high ground which terran has no vision of around the main base, and the reaver can really look for holes quite easily without terran having very good information on where the shuttle is at any time.
TvP: siege expand, the forgg build, and center proxy raxes
siege expand: standard play, upgrade heavy. you have an easily defendable 3rd base with a gas, making this really safe play the trademark of this map. it also deals with 10/15 gate better than any other standard build.
the forgg build: refer to forgg vs kal games 1 and 5 from an old MSL. when executed right, this build can kill anything due to the high ground outside of protoss's main base. it is very very hard to execute it right and learn all the branches of it though.
center proxy raxes: 12nexus is so powerful on this map, that you can expect most protosses to 12nexus here about 80%+ of the time, EVEN IN THE C CHANNEL!! the somewhat problem is that protoss normally scouts the center rather early. even so, with good micro, or perhaps hiding the barracks in a better location, this build is usable. hard to execute if they don't go 12nexus tho.
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On November 05 2009 09:54 Artosis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Colosseum 2:
PvT: 12nexus and 10/15 gate are pretty much the best builds on this map again. noteable mention to reaver openings.
12nexus: the nexus itself is unrushable being on the high ground. when you add in the distance from main to main, the fact that its a 4 player map, and the easy add-in of protoss scouting the center really early for proxy barracks, 12 nexus becomes the standard of this map's PvT.
10/15 gate: 10/15 gate is normally used a lot on maps with no high ground for terran to defend on. colosseum2 takes this to the next level, and has high ground outside the wallin. this makes the harassment of dragoons around the large arc + using the high ground, really really hard for terran to defend.
reaver openings: it can be quite easy to harass terran on this map with a reaver in a shuttle. the expansion is on a different level, and up a small ramp, making it hard for terran to circulate units + scvs to defend. add in the high ground which terran has no vision of around the main base, and the reaver can really look for holes quite easily without terran having very good information on where the shuttle is at any time.
TvP: siege expand, the forgg build, and center proxy raxes
siege expand: standard play, upgrade heavy. you have an easily defendable 3rd base with a gas, making this really safe play the trademark of this map. it also deals with 10/15 gate better than any other standard build.
the forgg build: refer to forgg vs kal games 1 and 5 from an old MSL. when executed right, this build can kill anything due to the high ground outside of protoss's main base. it is very very hard to execute it right and learn all the branches of it though.
center proxy raxes: 12nexus is so powerful on this map, that you can expect most protosses to 12nexus here about 80%+ of the time, EVEN IN THE C CHANNEL!! the somewhat problem is that protoss normally scouts the center rather early. even so, with good micro, or perhaps hiding the barracks in a better location, this build is usable. hard to execute if they don't go 12nexus tho.
Thanks man that's good stuff. I will add later tonight after The Ultimate Fighter!
Anyone got any for Fighting Spirit?
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
Python ZvT: 2hatch muta, 3hatch muta
2hatch muta: if zerg spawns at 3 or 9 on python, 2hatch muta becomes a very good choice. it is very hard for terran to defend the 12 main minerals, as they have a huge open area behind them, and the natural, because of its gross shape that doesnt allow too much movement or defence. 6 is an even worse position for terran. the circulation behind the minerals is even worse due to the gyser being on top, and the natural base allows almost no turrets, and almost no repairing to take place. 2 hatch muta can be a nightmare for terran to deal with for these reasons.
3hatch muta: standard play zvt vs bionic
TvZ: 88rax, 1rax expand into standard play, 1rax expand into vessel-less timing push, 1rax expand into 4 or 5 rax, NO MECH
88rax: 88rax can be quite strong on a 4 player map. zergs are more likely, in general, to go hatchery first on a 4 player map, and also less likely to scout you quickly (due to a lot of positions). if zerg goes hatchery first, 88rax is obviously very strong.
1rax expand into standard play (rax expand rax ebay rax fact port sci 3tanks/vessel gogogo): standard tvz play, very good for python.
1rax expand into vessel-less timing push: similar to the standard play, but instead of a port, you get another barracks. during this build you save up your scans in a close position, and you basically make a path to the zergs base without vessels, so that you have a quicker push with more units zerg is used to. this works because close positions on python are VERY close from natural to natural, compared to many other maps. check out game 5 iris vs ggplay from osl finals, even though iris messed it up, it will give you an idea of what im talking about here.
1rax expand into 4 or 5 rax: huge marine pressure can be very good on python. the open center makes it easy to stop mutas from harassing your army. also, there are only 2 smart expansions that zerg can take as his 3rd base: the other 2 main bases. this will help you to quickly find his intended 3rd base and take it down. it also gives u a sense of map control, which can help you in taking your 3rd base, which is something very hard about tvz on python.
NO MECH: taking the 3rd base is very very hard on this map. mech is less mobile than bionic, so its almost impossible to defend a 3rd base. for those reasons, do not mech here.
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On November 06 2009 09:27 Artosis wrote:
88rax: 88rax can be quite strong on a 4 player map. zergs are more likely, in general, to go hatchery first on a 4 player map, and also less likely to scout you quickly (due to a lot of positions). if zerg goes hatchery first, 88rax is obviously very strong.
Forgive my idiocy, but does 88rax mean
8rax
8rax
supply
?
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On November 06 2009 09:35 Rainbow wrote:
Forgive my idiocy, but does 88rax mean
8rax
8rax
supply
?
I would have to imagine he meant "8 rax" which is a barracks on 8 supply.
8 Rax, 8 Rax, Supply Depot would be a BBS (barracks, barracks, supply depot) .
edit: I might be wrong I saw he typed it multiple times... I will get ahold of Artosis to clear this up.
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Ok I just talked to Artosis, and 88rax is his way of saying BBS. Hope that helps clear any confusion!
BBS Link
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
Tau Cross:
PvT: 10/15 gate, 12nex, 2gate obs, and a nod to reaver openings/dt drop
10/15 gate: is the most powerful build PvT on this map. it is almost the only build done. terran only has 2 options vs this opening, which is infact so strong, that terran is forced into these 2 openings.
12nex: 12nex is really good on any map if you know how to deal with the things terran can do against it. but on this map its a bit better, because of the popularity of 10/15 gate. the builds terran can do vs 10/15 gate all suck against 12nexus, making it a great metagame build.
2gate obs: this build can cause problems for the FD terran build, the most common terran opening on this map.
reaver openings/dt drops: both can be quite good against FD terran, as 2gate obs is above. in addition, there is high ground stuff around your HUGE main, and around your expansion. this gives the shuttle site to find better places to get in. also, the size of the main can be a problem for terran, forcing more turrets, and weaker spread of defences.
TvP: FD terran, siege expand, tricky 2factory builds
FD terran: this is the best build for terran on this map, by far. it is the only build which can really stop everything protoss can do. please know that if you are going FD terran and protoss is going 10/15 gate, YOU WILL NEED A BUNKER AT YOUR EXPANSION TO HOLD THE RUSH! FD can be hard to execute well vs 10/15, but with some practice, it will be your best build on tau cross.
siege expand: this map is wallable, and you can go siege expand. the problem with it is pushing out. its not the same as a siege expand on python, or some map like that. you have to be very careful moving through that low ground choke. a very safe and usable build on this map when executed correctly.
tricky 2factory builds: there are several tricky 2factory builds. firstly, there is FFD terran (fake fake double). basically you are faking the FD terran. every protoss knows when they see an FD terran build, especially when its tau cross. for this reason, you can just make a second factory and have a delayed timing on your rush which can really mess with protoss. of course, the same is doable with siege expand. a 3rd 2factory build on this map is very tricky as well, 10/10/10 with a proxy factory. the 10/10/10 will defend you just fine with scv cuts at the right time, and they probably won't expect a proxy factory.
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actually BBS is 8rax 8rax 9supply (:
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On November 07 2009 11:33 ajmbek wrote:
actually BBS is 8rax 8rax 9supply (:
I missed the part where anyone said otherwise...
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ok well got all of Tau cross entered. these map pages are starting to look very useful!
thanks a million Artosis!
Edit: Does anyone have a min to put in the 2 Gateway Observer Build? I don't know it and it seems like an important build to have in Liquipedia. If not does someone at least have the build, I don't know it.
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Im not qualified either, but I think its because of the possible backyard expoes, large nat making forge FE with cannons more susceptible to hydra breaks (more space for the hydras to move around inside the nat), and the short rush distance from base to base. Also the fact that the choke outside the nat can be somewhat easily covered with 2 gates and a zeal/probes.
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EPT
