EDIT: There seems to be a lot on confusion about this so PLEASE read the Destination page (see PvT Strong Build orders section) to see what I am doing here.
So as a total newb (ie: not baller at all) I noticed one big thing missing from the Maps pages of Liquipedia.
When I start playing on a new map, I have to go thru the entire PvT section to find a acceptable build for that map.
So I would like to start working on putting a list of Strong BO's for each map (for all matchups). So post the following information:
1: BO 2: Map 3: Proof, ie: Vid of a Pro doing it, because that's about as official as it gets. Vids in English would be best I believe. 4: A ONE to TWO sentence description of why the build is good on that map. I will only enter info if all 4 of these things are provided. For example if you reply with "10/15 On Medusa dude lol gg gogogogogog!", it's not getting entered.
I will spend at least an hour a day at least 4-5 times a week on it if you give me enough stuff. So now would be a great time for IdrA, Ret, and Artosis to give us some official input! If you guys post you defiantly only need to Post 1, 2, and 4, but all 4 would be nice!
For a quick example of what I am talking about view the Destination page of Liquipedia (Click Me Now), I put some PvT in there. I only referred to what was already on Liquipedia so if I made any mistakes let me know.
it depends what your opponent is doing... your build order as protoss (im assuming you are?) changes based on what you see from your opponent much more than on what map you are playing on... and 10/15 on medusa is incredibly abusive basically almost as strong as 12 nexus if microed properly because of the lack of a ramp.
i guess the best i can really do is post early game build orders until variation might be needed
On October 23 2009 13:30 foppa wrote: it depends what your opponent is doing... your build order as protoss (im assuming you are?) changes based on what you see from your opponent much more than on what map you are playing on... and 10/15 on medusa is incredibly abusive basically almost as strong as 12 nexus if microed properly because of the lack of a ramp.
i guess the best i can really do is post early game build orders until variation might be needed
Um that's the idea behind a BO. They are for the early game only, I have never seen a BO go up to 56/78/97/etc Psi for example.
And this is not for me, this is BO's for every matchup, PvT, TvZ, ZvT, etc, for all of Liquipedia, so all input would be appreciated as long as it follows the format.
It's hard to define a "best" build for a map really. Often, there are several builds which are "strong" and "weak", but there often is not a clear-cut superior build on a map.
If you're learning PvT, the best solution isn't always to search for a specific build on a map, but just to learn to adapt one build (say, 2 gate range) to as many maps as you can. It's simply impractical for someone learning the game to learn multiple builds.
As a resource, I would only see it as catered to higher-level players, who would probably know most builds in the first place.
On October 23 2009 14:00 Hapahauli wrote: It's hard to define a "best" build for a map really. Often, there are several builds which are "strong" and "weak", but there often is not a clear-cut superior build on a map.
If you're learning PvT, the best solution isn't always to search for a specific build on a map, but just to learn to adapt one build (say, 2 gate range) to as many maps as you can. It's simply impractical for someone learning the game to learn multiple builds.
As a resource, I would only see it as catered to higher-level players, who would probably know most builds in the first place.
Again, this is not for me, it's for the community.
And I realize there is no one build beats all, but like u said there is "strong ones". This is useful info to know, and is the same reason the maps are listed as "Strong" and "Weak" in the BO's. It's sort of redundant but it's I think it would help some players to look at a map overview and see thier "Strong" build, and be able to see what to expect from thier enemies without having to click (just an example here): Protoss Strategies > PvT Builds > And click every build one by one... After this all you will have to do is click Maps > All Maps > Whatever map you want. Eliminated alot of needless clicking. I got Aesop's blessing on this as well.
To see what I am talking about, look at the Destination page (I linked above), and look under the Protoss vs Terran Strong Build Order's. That's what I am talking about.
if that doesnt work for you then you should seriously consider asking a question with more specific answers. Honestly there is no really "best" build order, and you really need to stop considering BOs as counters. They're merely suggestions for what works out well economically, and you'll rarely have two games that work out the same way, regardless of whether you use the same build or not.
In addition, there are builds that go up to 90+ food count. check out the flash build (double armory) for terran. stylish's builds also go up to at least 60 food count.
Again, BOs are not meant to be set in stone. Consider instead what would work well based on aspects of the map (ramp vs no ramp, etc). for example i consider hbr ridiculously good for slow lurker drops simply because of the thin ledge. but that's just me. The strength of a BO usually consistently depends on attributes to the map, but there is never one or two or even three "best" builds for a particular map.
The problem with following a specific BO up to 75+ supply is that the game requires that you adapt to your opponent to put yourself into an advantageous situation by that point. It's really up to what your scouting information provides. Also, by then builds could change significantly depending on if you've been harassed, how many expansions you have, etc. That's why you never see BOs past 50 supply or so.
There definately are builds that are better suited for certain maps. Usually only high level players understand this though. So even if people start telling you what builds are good on what maps it's most likely wrong unless they are of a high caliber. Sometimes it's obvious what builds are good of course.
If you look at the EXISTING pages for each Build Order there is a section for maps where the build order is strong and it is weak.
I just want to move the strong ones over to each maps page. I don't need whole build orders, they are already on Liquipedia. I just need a list of the strong ones for each map.
If yo don't use BO's, than no biggie, but I don't need you for this thread.
It is just useful for newbs to be able to look at a list of strong build for the map they are about to play.
And StarBrift, what seems obvious to you about which BO's work on which maps, it is not that way for everyone. Some people need a hand with that.
PLEASE read the Destination page and look at the the TvP Strong Build Order section.
On October 23 2009 20:53 Diamondback2 wrote: You guys are totally missing the point...
If you look at the EXISTING pages for each Build Order there is a section for maps where the build order is strong and it is weak.
I just want to move the strong ones over to each maps page. I don't need whole build orders, they are already on Liquipedia. I just need a list of the strong ones for each map.
If yo don't use BO's, than no biggie, but I don't need you for this thread.
It is just useful for newbs to be able to look at a list of strong build for the map they are about to play.
And StarBrift, what seems obvious to you about which BO's work on which maps, it is not that way for everyone. Some people need a hand with that.
PLEASE read the Destination page and look at the the TvP Strong Build Order section.
put this in the OP, i was confused at first, but this clears things up
PvT: 1 Gate expand --> 3 gate goon w/ obs Map: basically any map it is not safe to 12 nexus on (i.e.: 2 player maps, maps w/ short rush distances). really really good on destination and other maps which allow Terran players to get harass happy because it provides a very high goon count with a lot of obs.
Strength: allows you to defend an expansion nexus safely while pressuring your Terran opponent with ranged goons. gives you an adequate chance at defending 2 factory pushes because of the 3 gateways and provides adequate obs timing to be able to see what Terran is doing. Unless Terran is going for 3 factory bullshit or 2 factory pressure the following build order gives you an adequate chance at winning against Flash style Terrans, 4/5/6 factory timing pushes.
In Progaming: this build is basically never used because modern progamer toss players love their reavers. if you want to see in action watch White-Ra (basically the only foreigner that I will actually study reps of.
8 pylon 10 gate 11 gas 13 core 15 pylon 19 range 21 pylon 29 nexus 30 pylon 33 robotics 38 2 gateways 39 transfer probes (I do 7) 42 observatory 44 pylon ---> 3 gate goon + pump obs constantly 77 3rd nexus --> get 2nd gas asap --> I stop making obs here due to gas restraints --> citadel + forge --> templar archives and stargate as soon as citadel finishes --> start making constant zealots just before your citadel finishes --> 3rd gas asap --> cut probes when your 3rd nexus is about 3/4 complete and get an extra 5 gateways for a total of 8. --> +1 weapons and canons when forge completes -->arbiter tech and add 2 more Stargates. --> get your 4th and possibly your 5th (depending on the map) before adding gateways again.
On October 23 2009 22:11 foppa wrote: PvT: 1 Gate expand --> 3 gate goon w/ obs Map: basically any map it is not safe to 12 nexus on (i.e.: 2 player maps, maps w/ short rush distances). really really good on destination and other maps which allow Terran players to get harass happy because it provides a very high goon count with a lot of obs.
Strength: allows you to defend an expansion nexus safely while pressuring your Terran opponent with ranged goons. gives you an adequate chance at defending 2 factory pushes because of the 3 gateways and provides adequate obs timing to be able to see what Terran is doing. Unless Terran is going for 3 factory bullshit or 2 factory pressure the following build order gives you an adequate chance at winning against Flash style Terrans, 4/5/6 factory timing pushes.
In Progaming: this build is basically never used because modern progamer toss players love their reavers. if you want to see in action watch White-Ra (basically the only foreigner that I will actually study reps of.
8 pylon 10 gate 11 gas 13 core 15 pylon 19 range 21 pylon 29 nexus 30 pylon 33 robotics 38 2 gateways 39 transfer probes (I do 7) 42 observatory 44 pylon ---> 3 gate goon + pump obs constantly 77 3rd nexus --> get 2nd gas asap --> I stop making obs here due to gas restraints --> citadel + forge --> templar archives and stargate as soon as citadel finishes --> start making constant zealots just before your citadel finishes --> 3rd gas asap --> cut probes when your 3rd nexus is about 3/4 complete and get an extra 5 gateways for a total of 8. --> +1 weapons and canons when forge completes -->arbiter tech and add 2 more Stargates. --> get your 4th and possibly your 5th (depending on the map) before adding gateways again.
Thank you for your input. But to make sure there is no confusion I need EXACT maps, and a valid replay (preferbly one from each map) to add it in. Again, I am a newb, so I don't want to put ne false info in.
I think is much better to learn the buildorders with relative timings instead of psy count. You have much more capacity to adapt to loosing early units, recovering from a cheese, etc. All you need to know is what to make before what, and if u have to cut peons or not (Ex. Pylon, cannon, cannon, nexus, gateway, pylon, assimilator, core...) just get them as fast as possible with the minimal amount of cuts.
On October 23 2009 23:14 nicoaldo wrote: I think is much better to learn the buildorders with relative timings instead of psy count. You have much more capacity to adapt to loosing early units, recovering from a cheese, etc. All you need to know is what to make before what, and if u have to cut peons or not (Ex. Pylon, cannon, cannon, nexus, gateway, pylon, assimilator, core...) just get them as fast as possible with the minimal amount of cuts.
No offense but if the pro's use BO's because they are designed to be an optimal way to achieve a goal. They are there for a reason.
If you don't agree with BO's based on Psi, fine. But this thread isn't for you than. It helps players like me and again, the Pro's even use them so I will stick with them.
What are you guys thinking? "I don't have anything to contribute, but I wanted to ignore the OP and make an off-topic reply anyway, just because everyone else was doing it."
Read the thread people, seriously, it's not that hard.
On October 24 2009 00:34 integral wrote: 4 pool!!1
What are you guys thinking? "I don't have anything to contribute, but I wanted to ignore the OP and make an off-topic reply anyway, just because everyone else was doing it."
Read the thread people, seriously, it's not that hard.
QFT. THANK YOU!!!! lol.
Cmon ppl this will benefit Liquipedia BIG TIME, let's make some progress. I'll enter the data, just give it to me...
I'm really trying to help here guys but your not making it easy
I agree with the OP, especially when preparing for CSL matches, and I'm trying to predict what opening my opponent is going to use. I start by looking at the other race's builds to see what's good on that map, then look at its counters to see which of those is good on that map too.
You could start out by going through each strategy and seeing which maps that strategy is strong/weak on, and editing those map pages to include those strategies. I think once you have the section in the page, more people might think, "oh, I know strategy X is good on this map, but it's not listed, so I'll edit it in."
I'll give you a little help, though, as you requested, though don't forget about match-ups too. I wouldn't use this build against zerg.
PvP Build: 2gate reaver Map: Heartbreak Ridge Proof This is the build I prepared for my CSL game against OneOther. 2gate reaver is as standard as it gets PvP. It's a versatile build that can defend against a 2gate opening with good micro, and if you see DT's coming you can simply get an observer first and be safe. The only real hard counter to this build is a 4gate goon if your reaver is late.
1: BO 2: Map 3: Proof, ie: Vid of a Pro doing it, because that's about as official as it gets. Vids in English would be best I believe. 4: A ONE to TWO sentence description of why the build is good on that map.
TvP Desti 1: Flash build with slightly delayed third to allow extending your tank, mine and turret line to the bridged expand. 2: Destination 3: too lazy 4: Read stylish stuff, also too lazy to fix.
On October 24 2009 01:11 vAltyR wrote: I'll give you a little help, though, as you requested, though don't forget about match-ups too. I wouldn't use this build against zerg.
PvP Build: 2gate reaver Map: Heartbreak Ridge Proof This is the build I prepared for my CSL game against OneOther. 2gate reaver is as standard as it gets PvP. It's a versatile build that can defend against a 2gate opening with good micro, and if you see DT's coming you can simply get an observer first and be safe. The only real hard counter to this build is a 4gate goon if your reaver is late.
Thank you! Will add it 2night when I get home.
Guys this is what your entries should look like if you want it to get entered. Simply saying you are too lazy to get all 4 pieces of info will not cut it for me. I demand accuracy and without all this info I could be misinformed.
Cmon guys lemme give you a start. What PvT builds are good on HBR? As far as liquipedia is concerned there is not any good builds. Being this is a map that favors Toss I got to assume this is not correct. Give me some good HBR PvT builds if you can't think of ne thing else.
TvZ Destination - Mech - It's an easy transition from proxy 8rax bunker rush, you can glitch vultures through the backdoor to disrupt Z's economy. In late game, middle expansions can be easily attacked and defended by mech.
2port - Easily abusable cliff above nat forces zerg to heavily invest in hydras or spores, and the main/nat can be easily defended from hydra counters due to double bridges/ramp.
Great start. Just need the proof (pro-vod) and a one or two sentence descreption on why those build are good on that particular map and I will put them in. Finish that out and I will input them 2night!
On October 24 2009 03:58 Radfield wrote: Great idea Diamondback2, I hope you get a good response. This would be a nice addition to the wiki.
Thank you! I know this is something that would help any D+ or lower player immensely. It may seem like common sense to the better players but newbs (like me) aren't always sure what build would work just by looking at a map.
Thanks for the input guys let's keep it comin.
After I get this rolling got another project lined up with ideal simcity's for each map.
Let's make Liquipedia the best SC resource on the net!!!
Great start. Just need the proof (pro-vod) and a one or two sentence descreption on why those build are good on that particular map and I will put them in. Finish that out and I will input them 2night!
Why? These are all extremely common builds on these maps if you watch starcraft at all you should know these.
On October 24 2009 04:03 sixghost wrote: Why? These are all extremely common builds on these maps if you watch starcraft at all you should know these.
Because I want to be able to link replays to each one. Projects like Liquipedia are based off of being reliable and being able to source their stuff.
Plus you must remember, not everyone that uses Liquipedia watches SC. It is a project for newbs and experienced player alike. The newbs do not know this info.
I don't think I am asking alot here, and I will give alot of time in return.
TvZ Destination - Mech - It's an easy transition from proxy 8rax bunker rush, you can glitch vultures through the backdoor to disrupt Z's economy. In late game, middle expansions can be easily attacked and defended by mech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qiyBC3FRPA
On October 24 2009 01:11 vAltyR wrote: I'll give you a little help, though, as you requested, though don't forget about match-ups too. I wouldn't use this build against zerg.
PvP Build: 2gate reaver Map: Heartbreak Ridge Proof This is the build I prepared for my CSL game against OneOther. 2gate reaver is as standard as it gets PvP. It's a versatile build that can defend against a 2gate opening with good micro, and if you see DT's coming you can simply get an observer first and be safe. The only real hard counter to this build is a 4gate goon if your reaver is late.
Thank you! Will add it 2night when I get home.
Guys this is what your entries should look like if you want it to get entered. Simply saying you are too lazy to get all 4 pieces of info will not cut it for me. I demand accuracy and without all this info I could be misinformed.
Cmon guys lemme give you a start. What PvT builds are good on HBR? As far as liquipedia is concerned there is not any good builds. Being this is a map that favors Toss I got to assume this is not correct. Give me some good HBR PvT builds if you can't think of ne thing else.
There is no dominate opening PvT on HBR, the advantage on that map is because of the terrain, not abusable openings.
TvZ Destination - Mech - It's an easy transition from proxy 8rax bunker rush, you can glitch vultures through the backdoor to disrupt Z's economy. In late game, middle expansions can be easily attacked and defended by mech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qiyBC3FRPA
There you go, someone can fill in the rest, I don't remember enough games from those.
Thanks!!! Will input the info 2night! If you could please make a short description of why this build is good on said map it would help alot! Thanks agian!
If T didnt proxy 8 rax or something its uncountereble if P adapts right. Things you can do is proxy a fac and go for a gundam wich is a prety strong build here.
rine/scv > vult transition dont work cause pylon block on vult and p should always get their 2th pylon anty depot block in their choke.
Also proxying a rax on hbr is like ultimate bo order gamble cause P does alot of 9/9 gates on that map aswell.
uncountereble is ofc a big word but you get the point its just really hard might be a better chose of words.
That's what you don't try to do to counter it heh.
How can 12nex be unbeatable on a 2player map?
We have been over this ALOT of times, 12nex is quite safe against T on alot of maps. I challenge you to find a VOD that shows different, we'hve been through 4 threads on the subject the last months and not found a single one.
I know fantasy beat the crap out of one in the first prolague round tho', but its still a rare occurance
TvZ Destination - Mech - It's an easy transition from proxy 8rax bunker rush, you can glitch vultures through the backdoor to disrupt Z's economy. In late game, middle expansions can be easily attacked and defended by mech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qiyBC3FRPA
TvZ Destination - Mech - It's an easy transition from proxy 8rax bunker rush, you can glitch vultures through the backdoor to disrupt Z's economy. In late game, middle expansions can be easily attacked and defended by mech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qiyBC3FRPA
PvP 2 Gate Reaver - Need description why this build is good on this particular map. PvT 12 Nexus TvZ Supply Block Bunker Rush - Need BO and description to make the BO page. Also need description why this is good on this particular map.
PvT 2 Base Carrier PvT 12 Nexus - Need Video, Need Description why this is good on this particular map.
Destination Draft Page PvT Fast Expand - Need video, need description why it is good on this particular map PvT Dark Templar Fast Expand - Need Video PvT 2 Gate Opening - need video, need description why it is good on this particular map PvT Base Arbiter - - Need video, need description - need description why it is good on this particular map PvT Gas Steal Elevator Rush - need description why it is good on this particular map
I love this idea and have been thinking about the need for something like this for a while. Here's my input, I know not a very popular map but it was motw this week.
ZvZ on God's Garden
1: 12pool expand (to back-door expo) into fast lair I think the exact BO is: 12pool 11extractor 10 hatchery make 6 lings when pool finishes (unless you scout your opponent and see 12pool/12hatch) Lair with first 100 gas 2: God's Garden 3: Jaedong vs Zero, both of them 12pool expand into fast lair + Show Spoiler +
Jaedong vs Orion, both of them 12pool expand into fast lair + Show Spoiler +
4: The in-base expo is nicely protected against lings, you just need to cover your ramp with a good ling concave. Then tech to mutas off of two gas.
PvZ on God's Garden
1. 1 gate tech I don't know the EXACT build order, but it's a standard BO. In the VOD, Movie goes: gate, assimilator, cyber core, stargate, nexus, then citadel. 2. God's Garden 3. Movie vs Killer + Show Spoiler +
4. Wall off the ramp with zealots and you're pretty much secure from early ling rushes. Then put out extremely fast corsairs for scouting/harassment, followed by an easy expo. Sometimes 1gate tech has problems expanding because zerg can pump out fast hydralisks to deny expanding to the natural. But on God's Garden, the Protoss doesn't need to worry about making enough of an army to take the natural, and can hold ramp with a few zealots/goons and a photon for a VERY long time.
1. 1 gate expo Dunno exact BO, but it's gateway, nexus, cybernetics core, stargate. 2. God's Garden 3. Jaehoon v YellOw (yes, THAT yellow) + Show Spoiler +
In this VOD, Jaehoon expands off of one gateway, delays yellow's natural with a probe and a zealot, then puts even more pressure with 3 zealots/1 goon/1 probe plus reinforcements. 4. Once again, block off ramp with zealots. Now, expand to back-door expo before cybernetics core for good econ plus faster tech than forge FE. Pressure comes earlier, tech comes faster, and the economy isn't much slower than a forge FE.
2 Gate goon on Longi is a great build order. You can pressure the T because he will probably wall, and if you don't get the wall down then you will be ahead because of all the repairing he has to do. If he doesn't wall then hes pretty much fucked if you have decent micro.
Great guys keep it coming! I won't get much done 2night, as I'm leaving for the bar to watch UFC 104 soon, but i got alot of time tomorrow.
I'll try and name a new map every day to focus on, that way we can systematically sweep thru the maps. Let's start with Python (for obvious reasons). Gimme every build u can for that map (but if you want to use a diff map go ahead!)
Remember, use this format please, it makes everything much faster! 1: BO 2: Map 3: Proof, ie: Vid of a Pro doing it, because that's about as official as it gets. Vids in English would be best I believe. 4: A ONE to TWO sentence description of why the build is good on that map.
you forgot to include the race for the bo in your first post, TS...
but here goes nothing!
1: 2gate goons 2: BGH ( assuming it's 3v3) 3: bisu did it in battle.net ATTACK!!! 4: counters fast tech, hidden tech, owns proxies, tank cliffers, good for 3 Ts, good for 3 Ps, bad for zergs unless they go defensive sunkens which is easy to break with goons!
Alright guys back from B Dub's. Going to bed but when I wake up I will input some stuff.
After I play a game or two first. I'm having a blast I'm 13-18 and have a 1512 rating right now on a 3 game win streak, and its my first season playing really.
But these build are helping me too.
Is DT FE Viable past D level on HBR? I've had nice success with it, but again, I'm just a lowly D so I could be wrong. I'd love to hear your input and if maybe a VOD exists (I don't remember games by BO's, I remember the battles lol).
On October 25 2009 06:34 Monstah-_- wrote: 2 Gate goon on Longi is a great build order. You can pressure the T because he will probably wall, and if you don't get the wall down then you will be ahead because of all the repairing he has to do. If he doesn't wall then hes pretty much fucked if you have decent micro.
Unless he FDs, like alot of us do on rampless maps Granted 2 Gate Goon is a tough cookie to be up against even if you FD.
Dunno if this counts, but Tau Cross TvZ, 8rax bunker rush is pretty much autowin vs 12hatch if they don't block you from placing a depot between the main and nat. Even if they do, I have a replay somewhere of Perfective almost beating MenSol[ZerO] (aka ZerO) in the early game; Perfective goes 8 rax, ZerO blocks the depot, Perfective places the bunker down anyway and then drops the supply depot when ZerO moves his drones. Lings get there eventually but the hatchery still goes down.
Tau Cross ZvT: Jaedong vs Ret at WCG 2008: 9ovie 9pool (aka overpool) 11 hatch 8 lings as minerals allow 14 extractor drones @100 gas: lair @100 gas: ling speed @100% lair: spire more lings and drones, dunno what order at 200 hp on spire (about 162 gas), nat extractor manage overlords (I think he makes two? not sure) 6 mutalisks 2 more mutalisks Hatchery @ third more mutalisks
At some point I'm sure a normal person would put down a hydra den, but this is Jaedong and he knew he won I'm sure. Combination of speedlings, mutas, and being Jaedong meant gg for ret.
Summary: Overpool defends against the depot/bunker rush, plus puts terran on defensive. Jaedong continues the pressure with 2 hatch muta aggression and, well, ends the game right there. You can find the replay of Luxury v Strelok on Tau Cross, where Luxury goes overpool into 3 hatch, as an alternate possibility. Seems either way the two of them preferred Overpool to 12hatch.
Quick question: In a build order, the number at the beginning of each step, is it the worker count or the population count? I know that this doesn't matter with short BO's. But in longer BO's that go to maybe 40-50, it may be important.
Edit: I guess it's also important to short this out for shorter BO's. For instance, TvP FE opening with a couple of marines produced from the barracks, do you count them in the BO steps?
On November 02 2009 23:44 bao235 wrote: Quick question: In a build order, the number at the beginning of each step, is it the worker count or the population count? I know that this doesn't matter with short BO's. But in longer BO's that go to maybe 40-50, it may be important.
Edit: I guess it's also important to short this out for shorter BO's. For instance, TvP FE opening with a couple of marines produced from the barracks, do you count them in the BO steps?
im not sure if the way i will type out some of my thoughts here is exactly what you want, but let me know if you want me to reword some of it or something:
Medusa: PvT: 10/15 and 12nexus are the best builds on this map.
10/15: low-ground with a reasonable distance from mainbase to mainbase always make this a strong build order (think of maps such as tau cross and how often you see 10/15 there)
12nex: the mineral only base behind the main base is impossible for terran to rush because of the high ground up to it and the distance from the terran main. also add in that the safest build for terran is really fast siege mode due to the strength of the 10/15 gate.
TvP: siege expand and 2fact
siege expand: best way to stop 10/15, and you have an easy 3 base play, even off of 1 factory.
2fact: because of the ridiculous strength of 10/15 and 12nexus on this map, unless you are in the C channel, almost everyone will do one of those strategies. 2fact can crush both if done correctly.
maybe if i remember i'll add a matchup on a map each day. could be my morning routine or something. just pm me again diamondback, see if i can get a pattern going lol.
btw someone asked me to write something about tvz, cant remember exactly what, a while ago. i agreed to do it but got real busy. if that person reads that or someone knows, pls tell me.
Destination, ZvP: HoeJJa build -Overpool-gas (remove drones after mining 200) -Drones till 10 -10-12 lings -Speed with first hundred gas, burrow with second hundred -After lings take your expansion's, continue with standard play -When burrow finishes stack you zerglings next to the P's back mineral patch (right in the nook) on top of one another, unburrow all at once and glitch through.
Notes: Only works against FE, it's a cheese but it doesn't devestate your economy. If P's doesn't scout, you get to ravage their main. If P does scout it, the cannons their forced to set up in defense leaves the game relatively even.
Why it works: Abuses Destinations unique map set-up, for 100/100 you get to pop 6-8 lings directly into P's main before they have anything but cannons.
im not sure if the way i will type out some of my thoughts here is exactly what you want, but let me know if you want me to reword some of it or something:
Medusa: PvT: 10/15 and 12nexus are the best builds on this map.
10/15: low-ground with a reasonable distance from mainbase to mainbase always make this a strong build order (think of maps such as tau cross and how often you see 10/15 there)
12nex: the mineral only base behind the main base is impossible for terran to rush because of the high ground up to it and the distance from the terran main. also add in that the safest build for terran is really fast siege mode due to the strength of the 10/15 gate.
TvP: siege expand and 2fact
siege expand: best way to stop 10/15, and you have an easy 3 base play, even off of 1 factory.
2fact: because of the ridiculous strength of 10/15 and 12nexus on this map, unless you are in the C channel, almost everyone will do one of those strategies. 2fact can crush both if done correctly.
maybe if i remember i'll add a matchup on a map each day. could be my morning routine or something. just pm me again diamondback, see if i can get a pattern going lol.
You rock Artosis! Thank you so much, maybe your involvement will get more people to contribute to this cause! I will put in your material later tonight sometime. And yea that is perfect, but basically you Idra, Ret, and a VERY select few can pretty much just put the info however you want. You are what I would beyond call a reliable source! Maybe you can con Idra, Ret, and Tasteless to chip in, that's if Idra isn't worried bout a bunch of foringers getting good (lol just playing Idra)!!!
Well that got me excited to hear from a baller like Artosis! Now it's your turn everyone, gimme what you got!
Destination, ZvP: HoeJJa build -Overpool-gas (remove drones after mining 200) -Drones till 10 -10-12 lings -Speed with first hundred gas, burrow with second hundred -After lings take your expansion's, continue with standard play -When burrow finishes stack you zerglings next to the P's back mineral patch (right in the nook) on top of one another, unburrow all at once and glitch through.
Notes: Only works against FE, it's a cheese but it doesn't devestate your economy. If P's doesn't scout, you get to ravage their main. If P does scout it, the cannons their forced to set up in defense leaves the game relatively even.
Why it works: Abuses Destinations unique map set-up, for 100/100 you get to pop 6-8 lings directly into P's main before they have anything but cannons.
Do you have a formal name for the HoeJJa build? I do not see it on Liquipdia but my knowledge of Zerg builds is pretty bad so I might be missing it.
And thanks again Artosis! I got all your info entered, I just cleaned up the wording a bit. Let me know if you see any mistakes! (It might be in the draft section is Aesop has not approved the changes yet)
Destination, ZvP: HoeJJa build -Overpool-gas (remove drones after mining 200) -Drones till 10 -10-12 lings -Speed with first hundred gas, burrow with second hundred -After lings take your expansion's, continue with standard play -When burrow finishes stack you zerglings next to the P's back mineral patch (right in the nook) on top of one another, unburrow all at once and glitch through.
Notes: Only works against FE, it's a cheese but it doesn't devestate your economy. If P's doesn't scout, you get to ravage their main. If P does scout it, the cannons their forced to set up in defense leaves the game relatively even.
Why it works: Abuses Destinations unique map set-up, for 100/100 you get to pop 6-8 lings directly into P's main before they have anything but cannons.
Do you have a formal name for the HoeJJa build? I do not see it on Liquipdia but my knowledge of Zerg builds is pretty bad so I might be missing it.
And thanks again Artosis! I got all your info entered, I just cleaned up the wording a bit. Let me know if you see any mistakes! (It might be in the draft section is Aesop has not approved the changes yet)
I honestly could not tell you where I heard the name HoeJJa build, I think I made have made the name up but I just added it under that name
On November 04 2009 11:48 n.DieJokes wrote: I honestly could not tell you where I heard the name HoeJJa build, I think I made have made the name up but I just added it under that name
I think that players trying to come up with strong builds on their own is an important part of the improvement process, and a great way to develop a more intimate understanding of the game. For example TvP on Destination with many small choke points lined up across the middle, with the bridges and ramps, splitting the map is a very intelligent thing to do, and play for the late game. It looks fairly easy to secure both a natural and the 10:00/4:00 3rds, so a slow push to there would secure an easy 3 bases. A fast armory work perfectly in this type of play, because it would provide the upgrades for late game, as well as goliaths to fend off likely harassment play from the protoss. Dropships would also be very effective, especially early game, and science vessels are going to be a necessity against the likely arbiters. Considering all of this, I think the two strongest openings would be either 1 fac expand into a flash build, or 1 fac/port vulture drop. Two fact builds would be much weaker against the two tiny ramps, which a small number of dragoons can defend easily.
These musings may be completely wrong, but its important to think of them, try them out, and adjust them from there, or scrap them completely.
edit:
On October 23 2009 15:41 Meta wrote: The problem with following a specific BO up to 75+ supply is that the game requires that you adapt to your opponent to put yourself into an advantageous situation by that point. It's really up to what your scouting information provides. Also, by then builds could change significantly depending on if you've been harassed, how many expansions you have, etc. That's why you never see BOs past 50 supply or so.
I am going to have to semi-disagree here. Starting any game, you should always have a plan for how you want the game to progress. Starting the game with the mentality that you will just adapt to whatever the opponent is doing is setting yourself up for disaster. While I agree that you shouldn't have set psi number builds up past the mid game, you should have a very clear idea about how you want your play to develop. Playing with your head in the sand is stupid, but so is trying to invent your play on the fly. Side note: if you have ever played a clean 6 fact timing push, you would know the building timings are very precise up to over 100 supply. This goes for many other builds, although usually to lesser extents.
On November 04 2009 13:24 alphafuzard wrote: I am going to have to semi-disagree here. Starting any game, you should always have a plan for how you want the game to progress. Starting the game with the mentality that you will just adapt to whatever the opponent is doing is setting yourself up for disaster. While I agree that you shouldn't have set psi number builds up past the mid game, you should have a very clear idea about how you want your play to develop. Playing with your head in the sand is stupid, but so is trying to invent your play on the fly. Side note: if you have ever played a clean 6 fact timing push, you would know the building timings are very precise up to over 100 supply. This goes for many other builds, although usually to lesser extents.
Where the hell are the BO's like that at (I mean the whole thing)? I think these would be some useful things to get up on Liquipedia.... I for one could use a BO that goes that deep because I am too new to make right right unit combos in the mid game.
On November 04 2009 13:24 alphafuzard wrote: I am going to have to semi-disagree here. Starting any game, you should always have a plan for how you want the game to progress. Starting the game with the mentality that you will just adapt to whatever the opponent is doing is setting yourself up for disaster. While I agree that you shouldn't have set psi number builds up past the mid game, you should have a very clear idea about how you want your play to develop. Playing with your head in the sand is stupid, but so is trying to invent your play on the fly. Side note: if you have ever played a clean 6 fact timing push, you would know the building timings are very precise up to over 100 supply. This goes for many other builds, although usually to lesser extents.
Where the hell are the BO's like that at (I mean the whole thing)? I think these would be some useful things to get up on Liquipedia.... I for one could use a BO that goes that deep because I am too new to make right right unit combos in the mid game.
They don't exist because precise supply counts would be a ridiculous way to learn a build. You just need to know what order your buildings come in and make them when you have the resources.
In my opinion, protoss players won't benefit from learning build orders past the cybernetics core. They are the most "reactionary" race in a standard macro game. You basically look at what your opponent is doing and adapt to it rather than rely on specific timing attacks.
I think what you're doing (collecting strong opening build orders on certain maps) is fine. Combine that with the proper general concepts and then everything else comes from game experience and watching others.
On November 05 2009 00:58 Nytefish wrote: They don't exist because precise supply counts would be a ridiculous way to learn a build. You just need to know what order your buildings come in and make them when you have the resources.
In my opinion, protoss players won't benefit from learning build orders past the cybernetics core. They are the most "reactionary" race in a standard macro game. You basically look at what your opponent is doing and adapt to it rather than rely on specific timing attacks.
I think what you're doing (collecting strong opening build orders on certain maps) is fine. Combine that with the proper general concepts and then everything else comes from game experience and watching others.
Ok guys I understand some people do not use BO's. But this thread is for the people that do. If you don't think BO's help that's fine, but don't post it here, this is a discussion about BO's for particular maps, not a discussion on if BO's are a good thing or not.
Colosseum 2: PvT: 12nexus and 10/15 gate are pretty much the best builds on this map again. noteable mention to reaver openings.
12nexus: the nexus itself is unrushable being on the high ground. when you add in the distance from main to main, the fact that its a 4 player map, and the easy add-in of protoss scouting the center really early for proxy barracks, 12 nexus becomes the standard of this map's PvT.
10/15 gate: 10/15 gate is normally used a lot on maps with no high ground for terran to defend on. colosseum2 takes this to the next level, and has high ground outside the wallin. this makes the harassment of dragoons around the large arc + using the high ground, really really hard for terran to defend.
reaver openings: it can be quite easy to harass terran on this map with a reaver in a shuttle. the expansion is on a different level, and up a small ramp, making it hard for terran to circulate units + scvs to defend. add in the high ground which terran has no vision of around the main base, and the reaver can really look for holes quite easily without terran having very good information on where the shuttle is at any time.
TvP: siege expand, the forgg build, and center proxy raxes
siege expand: standard play, upgrade heavy. you have an easily defendable 3rd base with a gas, making this really safe play the trademark of this map. it also deals with 10/15 gate better than any other standard build.
the forgg build: refer to forgg vs kal games 1 and 5 from an old MSL. when executed right, this build can kill anything due to the high ground outside of protoss's main base. it is very very hard to execute it right and learn all the branches of it though.
center proxy raxes: 12nexus is so powerful on this map, that you can expect most protosses to 12nexus here about 80%+ of the time, EVEN IN THE C CHANNEL!! the somewhat problem is that protoss normally scouts the center rather early. even so, with good micro, or perhaps hiding the barracks in a better location, this build is usable. hard to execute if they don't go 12nexus tho.
Colosseum 2: PvT: 12nexus and 10/15 gate are pretty much the best builds on this map again. noteable mention to reaver openings.
12nexus: the nexus itself is unrushable being on the high ground. when you add in the distance from main to main, the fact that its a 4 player map, and the easy add-in of protoss scouting the center really early for proxy barracks, 12 nexus becomes the standard of this map's PvT.
10/15 gate: 10/15 gate is normally used a lot on maps with no high ground for terran to defend on. colosseum2 takes this to the next level, and has high ground outside the wallin. this makes the harassment of dragoons around the large arc + using the high ground, really really hard for terran to defend.
reaver openings: it can be quite easy to harass terran on this map with a reaver in a shuttle. the expansion is on a different level, and up a small ramp, making it hard for terran to circulate units + scvs to defend. add in the high ground which terran has no vision of around the main base, and the reaver can really look for holes quite easily without terran having very good information on where the shuttle is at any time.
TvP: siege expand, the forgg build, and center proxy raxes
siege expand: standard play, upgrade heavy. you have an easily defendable 3rd base with a gas, making this really safe play the trademark of this map. it also deals with 10/15 gate better than any other standard build.
the forgg build: refer to forgg vs kal games 1 and 5 from an old MSL. when executed right, this build can kill anything due to the high ground outside of protoss's main base. it is very very hard to execute it right and learn all the branches of it though.
center proxy raxes: 12nexus is so powerful on this map, that you can expect most protosses to 12nexus here about 80%+ of the time, EVEN IN THE C CHANNEL!! the somewhat problem is that protoss normally scouts the center rather early. even so, with good micro, or perhaps hiding the barracks in a better location, this build is usable. hard to execute if they don't go 12nexus tho.
Thanks man that's good stuff. I will add later tonight after The Ultimate Fighter!
2hatch muta: if zerg spawns at 3 or 9 on python, 2hatch muta becomes a very good choice. it is very hard for terran to defend the 12 main minerals, as they have a huge open area behind them, and the natural, because of its gross shape that doesnt allow too much movement or defence. 6 is an even worse position for terran. the circulation behind the minerals is even worse due to the gyser being on top, and the natural base allows almost no turrets, and almost no repairing to take place. 2 hatch muta can be a nightmare for terran to deal with for these reasons.
3hatch muta: standard play zvt vs bionic
TvZ: 88rax, 1rax expand into standard play, 1rax expand into vessel-less timing push, 1rax expand into 4 or 5 rax, NO MECH
88rax: 88rax can be quite strong on a 4 player map. zergs are more likely, in general, to go hatchery first on a 4 player map, and also less likely to scout you quickly (due to a lot of positions). if zerg goes hatchery first, 88rax is obviously very strong.
1rax expand into standard play (rax expand rax ebay rax fact port sci 3tanks/vessel gogogo): standard tvz play, very good for python.
1rax expand into vessel-less timing push: similar to the standard play, but instead of a port, you get another barracks. during this build you save up your scans in a close position, and you basically make a path to the zergs base without vessels, so that you have a quicker push with more units zerg is used to. this works because close positions on python are VERY close from natural to natural, compared to many other maps. check out game 5 iris vs ggplay from osl finals, even though iris messed it up, it will give you an idea of what im talking about here.
1rax expand into 4 or 5 rax: huge marine pressure can be very good on python. the open center makes it easy to stop mutas from harassing your army. also, there are only 2 smart expansions that zerg can take as his 3rd base: the other 2 main bases. this will help you to quickly find his intended 3rd base and take it down. it also gives u a sense of map control, which can help you in taking your 3rd base, which is something very hard about tvz on python.
NO MECH: taking the 3rd base is very very hard on this map. mech is less mobile than bionic, so its almost impossible to defend a 3rd base. for those reasons, do not mech here.
88rax: 88rax can be quite strong on a 4 player map. zergs are more likely, in general, to go hatchery first on a 4 player map, and also less likely to scout you quickly (due to a lot of positions). if zerg goes hatchery first, 88rax is obviously very strong.
Forgive my idiocy, but does 88rax mean 8rax 8rax supply ?
PvT: 10/15 gate, 12nex, 2gate obs, and a nod to reaver openings/dt drop
10/15 gate: is the most powerful build PvT on this map. it is almost the only build done. terran only has 2 options vs this opening, which is infact so strong, that terran is forced into these 2 openings.
12nex: 12nex is really good on any map if you know how to deal with the things terran can do against it. but on this map its a bit better, because of the popularity of 10/15 gate. the builds terran can do vs 10/15 gate all suck against 12nexus, making it a great metagame build.
2gate obs: this build can cause problems for the FD terran build, the most common terran opening on this map.
reaver openings/dt drops: both can be quite good against FD terran, as 2gate obs is above. in addition, there is high ground stuff around your HUGE main, and around your expansion. this gives the shuttle site to find better places to get in. also, the size of the main can be a problem for terran, forcing more turrets, and weaker spread of defences.
FD terran: this is the best build for terran on this map, by far. it is the only build which can really stop everything protoss can do. please know that if you are going FD terran and protoss is going 10/15 gate, YOU WILL NEED A BUNKER AT YOUR EXPANSION TO HOLD THE RUSH! FD can be hard to execute well vs 10/15, but with some practice, it will be your best build on tau cross.
siege expand: this map is wallable, and you can go siege expand. the problem with it is pushing out. its not the same as a siege expand on python, or some map like that. you have to be very careful moving through that low ground choke. a very safe and usable build on this map when executed correctly.
tricky 2factory builds: there are several tricky 2factory builds. firstly, there is FFD terran (fake fake double). basically you are faking the FD terran. every protoss knows when they see an FD terran build, especially when its tau cross. for this reason, you can just make a second factory and have a delayed timing on your rush which can really mess with protoss. of course, the same is doable with siege expand. a 3rd 2factory build on this map is very tricky as well, 10/10/10 with a proxy factory. the 10/10/10 will defend you just fine with scv cuts at the right time, and they probably won't expect a proxy factory.
ok well got all of Tau cross entered. these map pages are starting to look very useful!
thanks a million Artosis!
Edit: Does anyone have a min to put in the 2 Gateway Observer Build? I don't know it and it seems like an important build to have in Liquipedia. If not does someone at least have the build, I don't know it.
Im not qualified either, but I think its because of the possible backyard expoes, large nat making forge FE with cannons more susceptible to hydra breaks (more space for the hydras to move around inside the nat), and the short rush distance from base to base. Also the fact that the choke outside the nat can be somewhat easily covered with 2 gates and a zeal/probes.
I think it's kind of pointless to try to give recommended BOs for each map without understanding WHY each BO is favored.
For example, an important factors in ZvP is the accessibility of 3rd gas: If you aren't able to take a gas expo with your 3rd-5th hatch, you're not going to be able to support hydra/muta (or hydra/lurker) production. So while you can effectively do hydra builds on maps like Destination or Heartbreak Ridge, you have to do something like lurkerling, muta->lurkerling, or mass hydra on maps like Blue Storm or Longinus. Basically, the 3rd gas gives you many more options as a Zerg player.
On November 12 2009 06:41 Saracen wrote: I think it's kind of pointless to try to give recommended BOs for each map without understanding WHY each BO is favored.
For example, an important factors in ZvP is the accessibility of 3rd gas: If you aren't able to take a gas expo with your 3rd-5th hatch, you're not going to be able to support hydra/muta (or hydra/lurker) production. So while you can effectively do hydra builds on maps like Destination or Heartbreak Ridge, you have to do something like lurkerling, muta->lurkerling, or mass hydra on maps like Blue Storm or Longinus. Basically, the 3rd gas gives you many more options as a Zerg player.
Did you even read the OP? We are doing this already....
On November 12 2009 06:41 Saracen wrote: I think it's kind of pointless to try to give recommended BOs for each map without understanding WHY each BO is favored.
For example, an important factors in ZvP is the accessibility of 3rd gas: If you aren't able to take a gas expo with your 3rd-5th hatch, you're not going to be able to support hydra/muta (or hydra/lurker) production. So while you can effectively do hydra builds on maps like Destination or Heartbreak Ridge, you have to do something like lurkerling, muta->lurkerling, or mass hydra on maps like Blue Storm or Longinus. Basically, the 3rd gas gives you many more options as a Zerg player.
Did you even read the OP? We are doing this already....
No, I'm talking about things that are more general. Like features that can be applied to a variety of maps, as opposed to specific features of specific maps. The reason I'm against all this specificity is that, at the level you and most of the audience you are making this for are at, you should be focusing on as small a range of build orders as possible. Which means, find a BO that generally works, and then switch it up on maps where it doesn't work - NOT find a super-awesome BO for each map there is and learn all fifty of them. Why? Because you need to have a strong sense of both your timing and your opponent's timing relative to what you're doing, which will get incredibly fucked up if you keep switching around builds. So sure, 10/15 gate may be stronger than usual on some maps, but you'll do so much better if you just stick to a few builds.
On November 12 2009 09:55 Saracen wrote: No, I'm talking about things that are more general. Like features that can be applied to a variety of maps, as opposed to specific features of specific maps. The reason I'm against all this specificity is that, at the level you and most of the audience you are making this for are at, you should be focusing on as small a range of build orders as possible. Which means, find a BO that generally works, and then switch it up on maps where it doesn't work - NOT find a super-awesome BO for each map there is and learn all fifty of them. Why? Because you need to have a strong sense of both your timing and your opponent's timing relative to what you're doing, which will get incredibly fucked up if you keep switching around builds. So sure, 10/15 gate may be stronger than usual on some maps, but you'll do so much better if you just stick to a few builds.
Ok I've said this before I will say it again:
I dont care if you think knowing BO's based on the maps is useful or not. I really don't. This thread is for the people that want to know this info. Personally I have no problem learning 50 BO's. And you cannot just adapt them to the map. Show me how to 10/15 on Destination (and not be way behind), and I will show you the value of the imaginary number G.
If you don't think it will help, fine, just don't post in this thread. Both Artosis and Day(9) think this is a wonderful idea, and are both on board. Apparently they think it's cool and being they are like pro's I believe them.
This is not a discussion on the viability of BO's as a whole, it is just simply what BO's are strong on what maps.
Man I never thought a site like TL would be fighting me this much when I AM TRYING TO HELP.... it's demoralizing really...
Andromeda: 12Nex: Probably the best build for this map, both because of the long distances, the high ground advantage you can get from taking the min only. (Taking the gas expo is also possible, but a bit more risky) and Terrans trend of doing Siege expand here. Notice that pylons should be placed around you main to get early reaction to drops, witch is another common TvP opener here.
DT\Reaver drop : Both viable due to the large mains that T have to defend. + You get a free high ground expo while doing this.
Byzantium. 10\15Gate: Extremely strong on this map due to the revert ramps. Not as strong crossmap, but still works OK.
12Nex: Again 12nex is probably one of the best builds on the map due to the fact that 10\15gate is so strong here Ts options are limited, add in long distances and fairly easy natural chokes to defend and you got a great opener.
2gate Obs: Good build due to the fact that most Terrans will open some sort of FD on this map or 2fac and rarely Siege expand.
Longinus 10\15Gate once again very strong due to the flat nature of the main\naturals.
12Nex: Once again very strong due to the fact that most Terrans will fear 10\15 and are most likely going to 1Fac FE with a wall anyway. Defending vs 2fac can be a bit tricky on this map tho.
1Gate expo: With quick pressure with your first units against his wall or if you scout him not wall it can easily be turned into a 2gate OBs build which is strong against both FD and 2fac. Tho the 2 other builds are stronger on this map imo, this is more just your safe alternative.
Blue Storm. Several 1gate builds are good here. 1gate reavers or obs are both viable or just 1gate 3goon expo. Note that this is probably one of the most important maps to get a fairly early Robo on, both to determine what the T is doing, but also to defend your natural from any early pressure with tanks firing at your natural from behind the wall.
12Nexus: A bit risky on this map, since you are likely to get scouted early and the scv\marine rush distance aint to long. On the upside however you wont have to worry about factory units getting to your natural anytime soon and many Ts will delay themselves with scouting for proxies, so opening up 2gate with quick 2 zeals greatly increase your chance of defending vs marine\scv rush.
2Base carrier: 2base carriers are in general a really good build on this map due to the layout of the map.
Andromeda: 12Nex: Probably the best build for this map, both because of the long distances, the high ground advantage you can get from taking the min only. (Taking the gas expo is also possible, but a bit more risky) and Terrans trend of doing Siege expand here. Notice that pylons should be placed around you main to get early reaction to drops, witch is another common TvP opener here.
DT\Reaver drop : Both viable due to the large mains that T have to defend. + You get a free high ground expo while doing this.
Byzantium. 10\15Gate: Extremely strong on this map due to the revert ramps. Not as strong crossmap, but still works OK.
12Nex: Again 12nex is probably one of the best builds on the map due to the fact that 10\15gate is so strong here Ts options are limited, add in long distances and fairly easy natural chokes to defend and you got a great opener.
2gate Obs: Good build due to the fact that most Terrans will open some sort of FD on this map or 2fac and rarely Siege expand.
Longinus 10\15Gate once again very strong due to the flat nature of the main\naturals.
12Nex: Once again very strong due to the fact that most Terrans will fear 10\15 and are most likely going to 1Fac FE with a wall anyway. Defending vs 2fac can be a bit tricky on this map tho.
1Gate expo: With quick pressure with your first units against his wall or if you scout him not wall it can easily be turned into a 2gate OBs build which is strong against both FD and 2fac. Tho the 2 other builds are stronger on this map imo, this is more just your safe alternative.
Blue Storm. Several 1gate builds are good here. 1gate reavers or obs are both viable or just 1gate 3goon expo. Note that this is probably one of the most important maps to get a fairly early Robo on, both to determine what the T is doing, but also to defend your natural from any early pressure with tanks firing at your natural from behind the wall.
12Nexus: A bit risky on this map, since you are likely to get scouted early and the scv\marine rush distance aint to long. On the upside however you wont have to worry about factory units getting to your natural anytime soon and many Ts will delay themselves with scouting for proxies, so opening up 2gate with quick 2 zeals greatly increase your chance of defending vs marine\scv rush.
2Base carrier: 2base carriers are in general a really good build on this map due to the layout of the map.
Thanks Oystein! It's great to have another great player on board! I will get ur info in tomorrow as I have the day off. You got any for Matchpoint?
Andromeda: 12Nex: Probably the best build for this map, both because of the long distances, the high ground advantage you can get from taking the min only. (Taking the gas expo is also possible, but a bit more risky) and Terrans trend of doing Siege expand here. Notice that pylons should be placed around you main to get early reaction to drops, witch is another common TvP opener here.
DT\Reaver drop : Both viable due to the large mains that T have to defend. + You get a free high ground expo while doing this.
Byzantium. 10\15Gate: Extremely strong on this map due to the revert ramps. Not as strong crossmap, but still works OK.
12Nex: Again 12nex is probably one of the best builds on the map due to the fact that 10\15gate is so strong here Ts options are limited, add in long distances and fairly easy natural chokes to defend and you got a great opener.
2gate Obs: Good build due to the fact that most Terrans will open some sort of FD on this map or 2fac and rarely Siege expand.
Longinus 10\15Gate once again very strong due to the flat nature of the main\naturals.
12Nex: Once again very strong due to the fact that most Terrans will fear 10\15 and are most likely going to 1Fac FE with a wall anyway. Defending vs 2fac can be a bit tricky on this map tho.
1Gate expo: With quick pressure with your first units against his wall or if you scout him not wall it can easily be turned into a 2gate OBs build which is strong against both FD and 2fac. Tho the 2 other builds are stronger on this map imo, this is more just your safe alternative.
Blue Storm. Several 1gate builds are good here. 1gate reavers or obs are both viable or just 1gate 3goon expo. Note that this is probably one of the most important maps to get a fairly early Robo on, both to determine what the T is doing, but also to defend your natural from any early pressure with tanks firing at your natural from behind the wall.
12Nexus: A bit risky on this map, since you are likely to get scouted early and the scv\marine rush distance aint to long. On the upside however you wont have to worry about factory units getting to your natural anytime soon and many Ts will delay themselves with scouting for proxies, so opening up 2gate with quick 2 zeals greatly increase your chance of defending vs marine\scv rush.
2Base carrier: 2base carriers are in general a really good build on this map due to the layout of the map.
Thanks Oystein! It's great to have another great player on board! I will get ur info in tomorrow as I have the day off. You got any for Matchpoint?
Thanks again let's keep em comin guys!
Not at the moment no, I have only played like maybe 15 games total on that map so I have not really gotten a feel for it, and iv barely watched any progames at it either. Mainly just testing out stuff, and lots of proxies PvT
On November 12 2009 14:44 Oystein wrote: Not at the moment no, I have only played like maybe 15 games total on that map so I have not really gotten a feel for it, and iv barely watched any progames at it either. Mainly just testing out stuff, and lots of proxies PvT
Yeah I tried it today for the first time and got raped for going 12 Nexus. Idk when I look at that map it just seems like a really bad map for PvT. But than again I'm no pro.
Wellw hen you come up with some stuff let me know so I can get it in! Until than keep the entries coming, the map pages are starting to look good!
Andromeda: 12Nex: Probably the best build for this map, both because of the long distances, the high ground advantage you can get from taking the min only. (Taking the gas expo is also possible, but a bit more risky) and Terrans trend of doing Siege expand here. Notice that pylons should be placed around you main to get early reaction to drops, witch is another common TvP opener here.
DT\Reaver drop : Both viable due to the large mains that T have to defend. + You get a free high ground expo while doing this.
Byzantium. 10\15Gate: Extremely strong on this map due to the revert ramps. Not as strong crossmap, but still works OK.
12Nex: Again 12nex is probably one of the best builds on the map due to the fact that 10\15gate is so strong here Ts options are limited, add in long distances and fairly easy natural chokes to defend and you got a great opener.
2gate Obs: Good build due to the fact that most Terrans will open some sort of FD on this map or 2fac and rarely Siege expand.
Longinus 10\15Gate once again very strong due to the flat nature of the main\naturals.
12Nex: Once again very strong due to the fact that most Terrans will fear 10\15 and are most likely going to 1Fac FE with a wall anyway. Defending vs 2fac can be a bit tricky on this map tho.
1Gate expo: With quick pressure with your first units against his wall or if you scout him not wall it can easily be turned into a 2gate OBs build which is strong against both FD and 2fac. Tho the 2 other builds are stronger on this map imo, this is more just your safe alternative.
Blue Storm. Several 1gate builds are good here. 1gate reavers or obs are both viable or just 1gate 3goon expo. Note that this is probably one of the most important maps to get a fairly early Robo on, both to determine what the T is doing, but also to defend your natural from any early pressure with tanks firing at your natural from behind the wall.
12Nexus: A bit risky on this map, since you are likely to get scouted early and the scv\marine rush distance aint to long. On the upside however you wont have to worry about factory units getting to your natural anytime soon and many Ts will delay themselves with scouting for proxies, so opening up 2gate with quick 2 zeals greatly increase your chance of defending vs marine\scv rush.
2Base carrier: 2base carriers are in general a really good build on this map due to the layout of the map.
Thanks Oystein! It's great to have another great player on board! I will get ur info in tomorrow as I have the day off. You got any for Matchpoint?
Thanks again let's keep em comin guys!
Not at the moment no, I have only played like maybe 15 games total on that map so I have not really gotten a feel for it, and iv barely watched any progames at it either. Mainly just testing out stuff, and lots of proxies PvT
ya it should be noted that proxy gates are strong on every 2 player map PvT
On November 12 2009 21:21 foppa wrote: ya it should be noted that proxy gates are strong on every 2 player map PvT
Is there ne ones this would not apply 2? or is it literally every 2 player map?
island maps i guess heartbreak ridge is not as good as destination because you can wall the choke of with barracks and 1 depot eliminating the strength of a 9 gate or double 9 gate. 7 gate remains strong on it.
EPT
Granted 2 Gate Goon is a tough cookie to be up against even if you FD. 
