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EDIT: There seems to be a lot on confusion about this so PLEASE read the Destination page (see PvT Strong Build orders section) to see what I am doing here.
So as a total newb (ie: not baller at all) I noticed one big thing missing from the Maps pages of Liquipedia.
When I start playing on a new map, I have to go thru the entire PvT section to find a acceptable build for that map.
So I would like to start working on putting a list of Strong BO's for each map (for all matchups). So post the following information:
1: BO
2: Map
3: Proof, ie: Vid of a Pro doing it, because that's about as official as it gets. Vids in English would be best I believe.
4: A ONE to TWO sentence description of why the build is good on that map.
I will only enter info if all 4 of these things are provided. For example if you reply with "10/15 On Medusa dude lol gg gogogogogog!", it's not getting entered.
I will spend at least an hour a day at least 4-5 times a week on it if you give me enough stuff. So now would be a great time for IdrA, Ret, and Artosis to give us some official input! If you guys post you defiantly only need to Post 1, 2, and 4, but all 4 would be nice!
For a quick example of what I am talking about view the Destination page of Liquipedia (Click Me Now), I put some PvT in there. I only referred to what was already on Liquipedia so if I made any mistakes let me know.
Thanks everyone hope this goes somewhere!
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it depends what your opponent is doing... your build order as protoss (im assuming you are?) changes based on what you see from your opponent much more than on what map you are playing on... and 10/15 on medusa is incredibly abusive basically almost as strong as 12 nexus if microed properly because of the lack of a ramp.
i guess the best i can really do is post early game build orders until variation might be needed
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On October 23 2009 13:30 foppa wrote:
it depends what your opponent is doing... your build order as protoss (im assuming you are?) changes based on what you see from your opponent much more than on what map you are playing on... and 10/15 on medusa is incredibly abusive basically almost as strong as 12 nexus if microed properly because of the lack of a ramp.
i guess the best i can really do is post early game build orders until variation might be needed
Um that's the idea behind a BO. They are for the early game only, I have never seen a BO go up to 56/78/97/etc Psi for example.
And this is not for me, this is BO's for every matchup, PvT, TvZ, ZvT, etc, for all of Liquipedia, so all input would be appreciated as long as it follows the format.
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It's hard to define a "best" build for a map really. Often, there are several builds which are "strong" and "weak", but there often is not a clear-cut superior build on a map.
If you're learning PvT, the best solution isn't always to search for a specific build on a map, but just to learn to adapt one build (say, 2 gate range) to as many maps as you can. It's simply impractical for someone learning the game to learn multiple builds.
As a resource, I would only see it as catered to higher-level players, who would probably know most builds in the first place.
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On October 23 2009 14:00 Hapahauli wrote:
It's hard to define a "best" build for a map really. Often, there are several builds which are "strong" and "weak", but there often is not a clear-cut superior build on a map.
If you're learning PvT, the best solution isn't always to search for a specific build on a map, but just to learn to adapt one build (say, 2 gate range) to as many maps as you can. It's simply impractical for someone learning the game to learn multiple builds.
As a resource, I would only see it as catered to higher-level players, who would probably know most builds in the first place.
Again, this is not for me, it's for the community.
And I realize there is no one build beats all, but like u said there is "strong ones". This is useful info to know, and is the same reason the maps are listed as "Strong" and "Weak" in the BO's. It's sort of redundant but it's I think it would help some players to look at a map overview and see thier "Strong" build, and be able to see what to expect from thier enemies without having to click (just an example here): Protoss Strategies > PvT Builds > And click every build one by one... After this all you will have to do is click Maps > All Maps > Whatever map you want. Eliminated alot of needless clicking. I got Aesop's blessing on this as well.
To see what I am talking about, look at the Destination page (I linked above), and look under the Protoss vs Terran Strong Build Order's. That's what I am talking about.
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Stylish's FAQ recommends TvP builds for some maps. You may wish to incorporate this into your summary.
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1 gate core forever.
if that doesnt work for you then you should seriously consider asking a question with more specific answers. Honestly there is no really "best" build order, and you really need to stop considering BOs as counters. They're merely suggestions for what works out well economically, and you'll rarely have two games that work out the same way, regardless of whether you use the same build or not.
In addition, there are builds that go up to 90+ food count. check out the flash build (double armory) for terran. stylish's builds also go up to at least 60 food count.
Again, BOs are not meant to be set in stone. Consider instead what would work well based on aspects of the map (ramp vs no ramp, etc). for example i consider hbr ridiculously good for slow lurker drops simply because of the thin ledge. but that's just me. The strength of a BO usually consistently depends on attributes to the map, but there is never one or two or even three "best" builds for a particular map.
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The problem with following a specific BO up to 75+ supply is that the game requires that you adapt to your opponent to put yourself into an advantageous situation by that point. It's really up to what your scouting information provides. Also, by then builds could change significantly depending on if you've been harassed, how many expansions you have, etc. That's why you never see BOs past 50 supply or so.
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gogo Day[9]'s advice on relative timings preceding a BO!!!
be like "BOOM 2ND GAS AFTER CORE" rather than 22 food = second gas
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There definately are builds that are better suited for certain maps. Usually only high level players understand this though. So even if people start telling you what builds are good on what maps it's most likely wrong unless they are of a high caliber. Sometimes it's obvious what builds are good of course.
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You guys are totally missing the point...
If you look at the EXISTING pages for each Build Order there is a section for maps where the build order is strong and it is weak.
I just want to move the strong ones over to each maps page. I don't need whole build orders, they are already on Liquipedia. I just need a list of the strong ones for each map.
If yo don't use BO's, than no biggie, but I don't need you for this thread.
It is just useful for newbs to be able to look at a list of strong build for the map they are about to play.
And StarBrift, what seems obvious to you about which BO's work on which maps, it is not that way for everyone. Some people need a hand with that.
PLEASE read the Destination page and look at the the TvP Strong Build Order section.
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I support this fully! Can't really help right now, at school. I'll see about posting some stuff tonight.
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On October 23 2009 20:53 Diamondback2 wrote:You guys are totally missing the point... If you look at the EXISTING pages for each Build Order there is a section for maps where the build order is strong and it is weak. I just want to move the strong ones over to each maps page. I don't need whole build orders, they are already on Liquipedia. I just need a list of the strong ones for each map. If yo don't use BO's, than no biggie, but I don't need you for this thread. It is just useful for newbs to be able to look at a list of strong build for the map they are about to play. And StarBrift, what seems obvious to you about which BO's work on which maps, it is not that way for everyone. Some people need a hand with that. PLEASE read the Destination page and look at the the TvP Strong Build Order section.
put this in the OP, i was confused at first, but this clears things up
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PvT: 1 Gate expand --> 3 gate goon w/ obs
Map: basically any map it is not safe to 12 nexus on (i.e.: 2 player maps, maps w/ short rush distances). really really good on destination and other maps which allow Terran players to get harass happy because it provides a very high goon count with a lot of obs.
Strength: allows you to defend an expansion nexus safely while pressuring your Terran opponent with ranged goons. gives you an adequate chance at defending 2 factory pushes because of the 3 gateways and provides adequate obs timing to be able to see what Terran is doing. Unless Terran is going for 3 factory bullshit or 2 factory pressure the following build order gives you an adequate chance at winning against Flash style Terrans, 4/5/6 factory timing pushes.
In Progaming: this build is basically never used because modern progamer toss players love their reavers. if you want to see in action watch White-Ra (basically the only foreigner that I will actually study reps of.
Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +
8 pylon
10 gate
11 gas
13 core
15 pylon
19 range
21 pylon
29 nexus
30 pylon
33 robotics
38 2 gateways
39 transfer probes (I do 7)
42 observatory
44 pylon
---> 3 gate goon + pump obs constantly
77 3rd nexus
--> get 2nd gas asap
--> I stop making obs here due to gas restraints
--> citadel + forge
--> templar archives and stargate as soon as citadel finishes
--> start making constant zealots just before your citadel finishes
--> 3rd gas asap
--> cut probes when your 3rd nexus is about 3/4 complete and get an extra 5 gateways for a total of 8.
--> +1 weapons and canons when forge completes
-->arbiter tech and add 2 more Stargates.
--> get your 4th and possibly your 5th (depending on the map) before adding gateways again.
edit: rep in single player
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On October 23 2009 22:11 foppa wrote:PvT: 1 Gate expand --> 3 gate goon w/ obs Map: basically any map it is not safe to 12 nexus on (i.e.: 2 player maps, maps w/ short rush distances). really really good on destination and other maps which allow Terran players to get harass happy because it provides a very high goon count with a lot of obs. Strength: allows you to defend an expansion nexus safely while pressuring your Terran opponent with ranged goons. gives you an adequate chance at defending 2 factory pushes because of the 3 gateways and provides adequate obs timing to be able to see what Terran is doing. Unless Terran is going for 3 factory bullshit or 2 factory pressure the following build order gives you an adequate chance at winning against Flash style Terrans, 4/5/6 factory timing pushes. In Progaming: this build is basically never used because modern progamer toss players love their reavers. if you want to see in action watch White-Ra (basically the only foreigner that I will actually study reps of. Build Order: + Show Spoiler +
8 pylon
10 gate
11 gas
13 core
15 pylon
19 range
21 pylon
29 nexus
30 pylon
33 robotics
38 2 gateways
39 transfer probes (I do 7)
42 observatory
44 pylon
---> 3 gate goon + pump obs constantly
77 3rd nexus
--> get 2nd gas asap
--> I stop making obs here due to gas restraints
--> citadel + forge
--> templar archives and stargate as soon as citadel finishes
--> start making constant zealots just before your citadel finishes
--> 3rd gas asap
--> cut probes when your 3rd nexus is about 3/4 complete and get an extra 5 gateways for a total of 8.
--> +1 weapons and canons when forge completes
-->arbiter tech and add 2 more Stargates.
--> get your 4th and possibly your 5th (depending on the map) before adding gateways again.
Thank you for your input. But to make sure there is no confusion I need EXACT maps, and a valid replay (preferbly one from each map) to add it in. Again, I am a newb, so I don't want to put ne false info in.
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I think is much better to learn the buildorders with relative timings instead of psy count. You have much more capacity to adapt to loosing early units, recovering from a cheese, etc.
All you need to know is what to make before what, and if u have to cut peons or not (Ex. Pylon, cannon, cannon, nexus, gateway, pylon, assimilator, core...) just get them as fast as possible with the minimal amount of cuts.
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On October 23 2009 23:14 nicoaldo wrote:
I think is much better to learn the buildorders with relative timings instead of psy count. You have much more capacity to adapt to loosing early units, recovering from a cheese, etc.
All you need to know is what to make before what, and if u have to cut peons or not (Ex. Pylon, cannon, cannon, nexus, gateway, pylon, assimilator, core...) just get them as fast as possible with the minimal amount of cuts.
No offense but if the pro's use BO's because they are designed to be an optimal way to achieve a goal. They are there for a reason.
If you don't agree with BO's based on Psi, fine. But this thread isn't for you than. It helps players like me and again, the Pro's even use them so I will stick with them.
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On October 24 2009 00:08 piratebay wrote:
deep six
.... Read the OP please....
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4 pool!!1
What are you guys thinking? "I don't have anything to contribute, but I wanted to ignore the OP and make an off-topic reply anyway, just because everyone else was doing it."
Read the thread people, seriously, it's not that hard.
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EPT
