"And why," you ask, "Was this not up earlier?" Well, I was at work. That, and I didn't think anybody would actually be interested in the subject. The fact that no one else bothered to make a thread on the subject would seem to indicate that I was right.
But fans of KHAN everywhere have been called out by riptide, Heyoka and Manifesto7, and that simply cannot be tolerated. While I may sport a Stars icon - and the Stars will return to glory eventually, if and when free remembers how to win consistently or they find a Terran, wait where was I? - the fact is, with Woongjin gone from the playoff picture I find myself increasingly intrigued by KHAN and their chance of glory.
Without further ado, let's look at the reasons KHAN will not only make it past the most dangerous gauntlet, their opening round games against STX, but take it all the way to the top.
The Leader
First of all, before anything else, KHAN has a genius coach. January's ability to somehow get a decent lineup for every single match ought to be legendary. Unfortunately her facepalm is far more legendary right now, but that's no reason to doubt that she's still got it when it counts.
Then there's her team.
Let's be blunt, they've been slumping a little bit lately. They still snuck into the playoffs at the last moment, and that's what counts. Let's be honest again: if they were still sitting in second, even the last few weeks' performance wouldn't worry anybody.
Of course, they're not in second, they're in sixth, and their biggest challenge is the first thing they have to deal with. In my opinion, STX is favored to win the whole deal on depth, and their biggest challenge will be SK Telecom T1.
Well, their biggest challenge except for the men from KHAN, who will prove that SouL is not enough, and that Samsung still KHAN.
This man is the defacto leader of the ragtag band who call KHAN home. The only one on the team with a gold medal in individual play, if push comes to shove, Stork will be the one to pick up the ball and run with it. In the match against STX, he's going to be solidly in the spotlight.
STX lives and dies with its Zerg, and this is the Dinotoss's worst matchup. On the other hand, Stork sports a 2-2 record against Jaedong in 2009. In no case will Stork have to play a "best of" against anyone, so Stork should be perfectly fine here. It's not like he hasn't seen pressure before.
This man has epic TvZ when he feels like it, and his TvT is still solid even when the rest of his body of work is somewhat... limp. I think January will have him in top form for the playoffs, but I'm not going to speculate how. Still, one game is against Hwasin, and that should be a win for bm central even if firebathero's not up to snuff.
Baby-face is slowly maturing into a solid player day in and day out. When the rest of the team went on vacation for the Winners League, he kept KHAN in contention with a little help from by.great, but we'll get to him later.
Ah, KHAN's secret weapon. KHAN's Zerg line. Let's face it, Juni and oDin suck. But that doesn't matter, because between the two of them they only have two games and one is a ZvZ. by.great, meanwhile, has a ZvZ game against Calm, in a battle of micro vs mind (neither are great in the matchup, but both are solid), and a game against Shuttle that should be an entertaining win for a great player.
The Clincher
Anyone who says KHAN can't get three wins in either match is smoking something. True, in the first game they'll have to win in six or lose in ace, probably. But the second match, and the final ace match to close things out, are KHAN's playground. One on Shades of Twilight, newest map to play host to the Protoss as favorites. And to finish things out, Colosseum itself, new home to the tribes. Stork on one, Jangbi on the other, and I defy SouL to send any combination of July, Calm, and Kal that will win the required games to keep their dreams alive.
So then. KHAN clearly can win against STX SouL, but KHAN is aiming higher than that - at Proleague gold (or at least silver, badumching!). Yet I've stated that their biggest worry is STX. Am I on crack? Clearly, whoever comes out of the Hite-CJ match is no weakling. However, CJ Entus is merely STX SouL light. And they don't have good Protosses to go toe to toe with KHAN, as STX might (if they weren't going to lose). And Hite... well, KHAN won last time, so I'm going to say history is on my side.
After that we have OZ. Jaedong one win, BackHo/Lomo/HiyA one win, Samsung KHAN four. Repeat, wash, rinse or whatever it is.
And then SK Telecom T1 will be the only team left in the way of KHAN's glory. Then there were two, and after coming all this way, do you really think that KHAN will let a little thing like T1 stand in their way? Well, they might, Stork and Jangbi (especially Jangbi) are used to the feeling.
But I, for one, believe.
(Mostly because I want to see fbh keep dancing, but hey, reasons are reasons)
Yea, the lateness of this article is just evidence of how ... unfortunate... Khan's situation is. Your stars icon also.
Sorry mate, don't think things will roll your way. "January will pick up a floundering line-up of FBH/Stork/Jangbi... I don't know how though," is not really a good approach ):
Let's hope you're right and we see some epic games, I would NOT mind Bisu vs. Stork or Jangbi in the finals. Bisu/Best vs. Stork/Jangbi are the games I look forward to most whenever they arise, about as much as Bisu vs. Jaedong or Flash.
the way Samsung has been playing lately, there's really no quick fix. it's not been a fluke, they are just playing bad. I don't see them having some miracle (no pun intended) turnaround in one week. plus, with jangbi, stork, and others slumping, they can't beat a top heavy team like SKT and hey are not deep enough to beat a team as deep as STX or CJ in a Bo7
and CJ is STX light? come on now, looking at their rosters I can't imagine anyone arguing STX that much better.
Z: Effort is clearly the best player on both teams, and with Kwanro doing well and Savior not that bad, against July / Calm / by.hero it's pretty close (though a lot would argue CJ superior)
T: Iris and Skyhigh versus Hwasin and Notice/Last, clearly CJ superior here
P: Kal is the best here, but I'd take Movie and Much over Shuttle, and the maps are more T/Z friendly
On July 18 2009 00:55 Hot_Bid wrote: the way Samsung has been playing lately, there's really no quick fix. it's not been a fluke, they are just playing bad. I don't see them having some miracle (no pun intended) turnaround in one week. plus, with jangbi, stork, and others slumping, they can't beat a top heavy team like SKT and hey are not deep enough to beat a team as deep as STX or CJ in a Bo7
and CJ is STX light? come on now, looking at their rosters I can't imagine anyone arguing STX that much better.
Z: Effort is clearly the best player on both teams, and with Kwanro doing well and Savior not that bad, against July / Calm / by.hero it's pretty close (though a lot would argue CJ superior)
T: Iris and Skyhigh versus Hwasin and Notice/Last, clearly CJ superior here
P: Kal is the best here, but I'd take Movie and Much over Shuttle, and the maps are more T/Z friendly
Shuttle DID play a sick series vs. Flash recently, I don't know. I don't think Kal could have pulled that off.
On July 18 2009 00:55 Hot_Bid wrote: the way Samsung has been playing lately, there's really no quick fix. it's not been a fluke, they are just playing bad. I don't see them having some miracle (no pun intended) turnaround in one week. plus, with jangbi, stork, and others slumping, they can't beat a top heavy team like SKT and hey are not deep enough to beat a team as deep as STX or CJ in a Bo7
and CJ is STX light? come on now, looking at their rosters I can't imagine anyone arguing STX that much better.
Z: Effort is clearly the best player on both teams, and with Kwanro doing well and Savior not that bad, against July / Calm / by.hero it's pretty close (though a lot would argue CJ superior)
T: Iris and Skyhigh versus Hwasin and Notice/Last, clearly CJ superior here
P: Kal is the best here, but I'd take Movie and Much over Shuttle, and the maps are more T/Z friendly
Shuttle DID play a sick series vs. Flash recently, I don't know. I don't think Kal could have pulled that off.
yeah, it's clear that its pretty close between STX and CJ, especially the way calm and effort have been tearing it up lately. but the author says "CJ is basically STX lite" which obviously isn't the case. if any team is that, it's Samsung, who is just a worse version of SKT. they have two Ps (who are slumping and worse than Bisu/Best), one Terran (FBH) who is way worse than Fantasy, and a rising zerg (great) who is better than thezerg but not enough to offset any of the differences. also, samsung's strength used to be excellent coching, strategy, and planning, but with the way they've been playing recently, I think SKT has the edge there too now.
On July 18 2009 00:55 Hot_Bid wrote: the way Samsung has been playing lately, there's really no quick fix. it's not been a fluke, they are just playing bad. I don't see them having some miracle (no pun intended) turnaround in one week. plus, with jangbi, stork, and others slumping, they can't beat a top heavy team like SKT and hey are not deep enough to beat a team as deep as STX or CJ in a Bo7
and CJ is STX light? come on now, looking at their rosters I can't imagine anyone arguing STX that much better.
Z: Effort is clearly the best player on both teams, and with Kwanro doing well and Savior not that bad, against July / Calm / by.hero it's pretty close (though a lot would argue CJ superior)
T: Iris and Skyhigh versus Hwasin and Notice/Last, clearly CJ superior here
P: Kal is the best here, but I'd take Movie and Much over Shuttle, and the maps are more T/Z friendly
Shuttle DID play a sick series vs. Flash recently, I don't know. I don't think Kal could have pulled that off.
yeah, it's clear that its pretty close between STX and CJ, especially the way calm and effort have been tearing it up lately. but the author says "CJ is basically STX lite" which obviously isn't the case. if any team is that, it's Samsung, who is just a worse version of SKT. they have two Ps (who are slumping and worse than Bisu/Best), one Terran (FBH) who is way worse than Fantasy, and a rising zerg (great) who is better than thezerg but not enough to offset any of the differences. also, samsung's strength used to be excellent coching, strategy, and planning, but with the way they've been playing recently, I think SKT has the edge there too now.
I agree completely. I was just making a statement that Shuttle did what I think Movie/Kal couldn't do, and I doubt Much could either (the giving Flash a good series bit). Although it's only one MU, it's still something to consider and not ignore by saying Movie is better :p
1) Yes, was exaggeration, but 2) Has a grain of truth. In all but ZvZ, Calm is at least EffOrt's equal, and I'd argue is a superior player. I'm a fan of Kwanro, and not of by.hero, but Kwanro's style is highly hit-or-miss (though mostly hitting recently) while by.hero is good, solid, and improving. I would also take July over sAviOr any day. Modesty adds one more decent Zerg to the list that CJ doesn't match.
In the Protoss lineup, I think it's clear that Kal is better than Much right now, and has more left in the tank. While Movie has an ability to come up with one-off builds that work really well, he also has the ability to get completely trapped in his base by OZ's random b-team Zerg. Shuttle is much more solid overall even if his macro's occasionally spotty. Clear win for STX.
Terran is the interesting one. In TvT, CJ holds a huge advantage, but in an STX vs CJ match STX should be looking to send Zergs against the Terrans. Hwasin is clearly not as good as Iris, but I feel like sKyHigh's TvT may not be as good as his early results. Hwasin-sKyHigh I call a push. The question is whether STX's extra random Terrans (Notice, Last) who can both win games offset Iris and the failure known as Memory - and whether, if they don't, this offset's CJ's relative Protoss weakness.
If I pick top seven players from each team, I'd arrange them like in order:
Effort, skyhigh, Iris, Kwanro, Much, sAvior, Movie Calm, Kal, Hwasin, July, Shuttle, by.hero, Last
And 1 on 1, in that order, I'd expect your winners to be Effort, Kal, Iris, Kwanro, Shuttle, by.hero, Last, 4-3 STX. I think Kal is better than skyhigh, despite the failed cheese loss in their last meeting, but the kicker is in the tail-end of the lineup, where STX has just a touch more depth than CJ. Of course, if I'm wrong about movie, and he's actually the next big Protoss, that throws my calculation out the window.
I really like the KHAN boys and I wish they'd stop slumping.
Stork, Jangbi, and FBH are such amazing players when they're on. Each of them used to be S-class in at least two matchups and they all had a cool style.
There's a chance they'll lift themselves up by the bootstraps and play the way they used to...
Why Khan its going to win this proleague: 1- Khan was on vacation... JB, Stork and FBH were just party and stuff, now its time for the real game 2- STX doesnt have July on the lineup 3- CJ, Hite?? wtf KHAN>>>>All 4- Oz??? lets see... JD and Backho only 2 players T_T you are dead OZ 5- SKTt1? WAT... Stork, jangbi, fbh > Bisu, Best, fantasy 6-
On July 18 2009 01:59 Musoeun wrote: The STX lite comment:
1) Yes, was exaggeration, but 2) Has a grain of truth. In all but ZvZ, Calm is at least EffOrt's equal, and I'd argue is a superior player. I'm a fan of Kwanro, and not of by.hero, but Kwanro's style is highly hit-or-miss (though mostly hitting recently) while by.hero is good, solid, and improving. I would also take July over sAviOr any day. Modesty adds one more decent Zerg to the list that CJ doesn't match.
Effort vs Calm in ZvZ is nowhere near close. Effort is #2 in ZvZ ELO, 8-2 in his last 10, 21-9 overall (70%) and 2-0'd Jaedong recently. Calm is TENTH on the ZvZ ranking, 5-5 in his last 10, and 23-20 (53%) overall. I can't see how you can argue they are even remotely equal, let alone say that Calm is "superior."
In the Protoss lineup, I think it's clear that Kal is better than Much right now, and has more left in the tank. While Movie has an ability to come up with one-off builds that work really well, he also has the ability to get completely trapped in his base by OZ's random b-team Zerg. Shuttle is much more solid overall even if his macro's occasionally spotty. Clear win for STX.
Unfortunately the maps are not very P-friendly, thus even if Kal is superior to Much and Movie, its not as big a deal. If it ever gets to an Ace match, Effort is the favorite.
Terran is the interesting one. In TvT, CJ holds a huge advantage, but in an STX vs CJ match STX should be looking to send Zergs against the Terrans. Hwasin is clearly not as good as Iris, but I feel like sKyHigh's TvT may not be as good as his early results. Hwasin-sKyHigh I call a push. The question is whether STX's extra random Terrans (Notice, Last) who can both win games offset Iris and the failure known as Memory - and whether, if they don't, this offset's CJ's relative Protoss weakness.
Again, the P weakness doesn't matter as much, because there will be more Z and T players in the lineups. That's why Iris and Effort are so great in these Bo7s, their ZvZ and TvT skills are very valuable.
If I pick top seven players from each team, I'd arrange them like in order:
Effort, skyhigh, Iris, Kwanro, Much, sAvior, Movie Calm, Kal, Hwasin, July, Shuttle, by.hero, Last
And 1 on 1, in that order, I'd expect your winners to be Effort, Kal, Iris, Kwanro, Shuttle, by.hero, Last, 4-3 STX. I think Kal is better than skyhigh, despite the failed cheese loss in their last meeting, but the kicker is in the tail-end of the lineup, where STX has just a touch more depth than CJ. Of course, if I'm wrong about movie, and he's actually the next big Protoss, that throws my calculation out the window.
I disagree, but that's certainly a fair assessment. It's going to be a close match if they play. And when it's close, you usually take the team with the best Ace.
samsung have been luring everyone else into a false sense of security, so if they can somehow find their a-game again they're a good shot at upsetting everyone. I hope....
Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork: 2123 ELO, 5-5 L10 overall, 5-3 PvP since losing to Jangbi in March
Jangbi: 2128 ELO, 2-8 L10 overall, 1-6 in PvP since beating Stork in Lost Saga MSL back in March
Best: 2123 ELO, 5-5 L10 overall, 2-2 in PvP since losing to Bisu in Batoo OSL in MSL
Bisu: 2298 ELO, 8-2 L10 overall, 10-3 in PvP since beating Best in March
Looking at that, I'd say Bisu >> Stork >= Best = Jangbi at the moment in PvP and overall. Jangbi is playing like ass so who knows what form his vZ and vT will be in? Bisu is so much better than them in every MU, and Best is comparable to Jangbi given how badly Jangbi's been playing lately. Stork's record isn't that much better.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
You really should check up on stats and watch the games before you make these sort of statements. Jangbi is playing by far the worst out of all four of them, and Bisu would be a big favorite if he were to play any of them. Most likely though there won't be many PvPs on these maps.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
If you extend that to include their next player in line though, it swings heavily in favor of SKT. Bisu/Best/Fantasy > Stork/Jangbi/FBH. Bisu and Fantasy have both been playing well as of late, while KHAN's protoss aces have obviously been slumping. They have the capacity to go toe to toe with Bisu and Fantasy, but in their current form it's unlikely.
Best and FBH are both the obvious weak links in the teams' top 3 players, but Best on a good day is FAR better than Firebathero on a good day. Both have their obvious problem matchups, but I'm going to have to say that say Best's PvZ is less atrocious than Firebathero's TvP. Moreover, given the lineups of the teams, FBH's bad matchup is more likely to be relevant in an SKT v KHAN final than Best's (SKT has 2 strong Protosses, while KHAN only has 1 good Zerg).
Hotbid, Musoeun was conceding that Calm's ZvZ isn't as good as EffOrt's and arguing that he is more solid in other matchups, therefore a better all around player.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
On July 18 2009 04:11 nevake wrote: Hotbid, Musoeun was conceding that Calm's ZvZ isn't as good as EffOrt's and arguing that he is more solid in other matchups, therefore a better all around player.
Oh, it was worded confusingly.
Still, lets compare the other MUs since April:
Effort vs T: 14-2, losses to Flash and Mind (won series 2-1), 2170 ELO #3 ZvT Calm vs T: 11-2, losses to Leta and Hiya, 2147 ELO #4 ZvT
Effort vs P: 9-2, losses to Iron and Bisu, 2141 ELO #3 ZvP Calm vs P: 8-1, loss to Bisu, 2117 ELO #5 ZvP
Both are have sick records of course, but I don't know how you can say Calm is "more solid." If anything Effort is slightly ahead in both non ZvZ matchups. At best, Calm is equal, and their ZvZ is far in Effort's favor.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
If you extend that to include their next player in line though, it swings heavily in favor of SKT. Bisu/Best/Fantasy > Stork/Jangbi/FBH. Bisu and Fantasy have both been playing well as of late, while KHAN's protoss aces have obviously been slumping. They have the capacity to go toe to toe with Bisu and Fantasy, but in their current form it's unlikely.
Best and FBH are both the obvious weak links in the teams' top 3 players, but Best on a good day is FAR better than Firebathero on a good day. Both have their obvious problem matchups, but I'm going to have to say that say Best's PvZ is less atrocious than Firebathero's TvP. Moreover, given the lineups of the teams, FBH's bad matchup is more likely to be relevant in an SKT v KHAN final than Best's (SKT has 2 strong Protosses, while KHAN only has 1 good Zerg).
I agree 100% with you Yango. Top 3 vs top 3 SKT has Khan outclassed badly right now. And it's 100% due to Fantasy, who is an amazing player. But just the toss pairs alone, I don't think it's justifiable to say that SKT is better.
To Hotbid: Thanks for taking the time to put up the statistical comparisons. It makes me think Best is less stinky. But I still think they're kind of skewed because they capture Jangbi and Stork at their absolute worst, while Best has been nowhere to be seen. He didn't even show up to the leagues this season and he's been a non-factor in the PL. It's really a Bisu/Fantasy show over at SKT. To me, Best ranks alongside Kal right now. Below Jangbi, and definitely below Stork/Bisu.
It's proleague playoffs, of course Samsung will do better than is expected to, as every time before (with one particular exception vs Lecaf, but such cases happen once in a century).
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
And if January gets lucky seeding her players, bygreat might even snipe Bisu. He's done it before, albeit with a very unorthodox strat. But who's gonna expect anyone to open with cookie cutter builds for the playoffs?
Not saying I think the PL is a lock for Khan. Far from it. But in my op, Khan's got a better chance than anyone to take SKT down. Hwaesung sure as hell does not. I'm sorry, but whoever thinks JD and co. can take a Bo7 vs SKT1 has not been watching the same games as I have.
Regardless though, I'm very excited for this season's playoffs. There are so many solid teams, a dark horse (Khan), and all the mega-stars except Flash. Couldn't be happier. (Except for Hite being in the playoffs. Would have vastly preferred KTF.)
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
I think you guys are looking into the stats way to much. Stats matter, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor for how a player is going to do, especially in the playoffs. Obviously they (KHAN) are going to practice and prepare a lot more for this match-up and so there is no way a line-up of S-class gamers are going to lose to STX. The only team that matches KHAN in starpower is SKT, who I think will win it all.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
Keep dreaming baby <3
quite you clueless fool
watch some stork vs bisu pvps (the latest one helps. it was during stork's mini "slump.") and then come talk to me. bisu brings the best out of stork. curbstomp my ass
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
Keep dreaming baby <3
quite you clueless fool
watch some stork vs bisu pvps (the latest one helps. it was during stork's mini "slump.") and then come talk to me. bisu brings the best out of stork. curbstomp my ass
Let's make a bet for their next match.
If Bisu wins the next Bo1, you get banned for a week. If he loses, I get banned for a week.
If Bisu wins the next Bo#, I get your account at some point for a week of my choosing (no mod priveleges will be used EDIT: haha you don't have any). If he loses, I get banned for # x weeks and something else you can propose.
On July 18 2009 03:38 BisuBoi wrote: Hotbid I have to disagree with you on Stork/JB < Bisu/Best. You look at those pairs of toss and if they faced off, at worst, Khan would go 1-1. Stork vs Bisu is a cointoss, but JB will wreck Best. I don't know how you can say JB is slumping (he is) and not mention how utter shat Best is right now.
And then on the flipside, Jangbi vs Bisu is a loss for Khan, but Best vs Stork is no way in hell going to be a SKT win. Stork's PvP is 10x better than Best's. Best had a hot streak but once everyone realized he's a macro hound without any tactical sense, his days were numbered. Stork's got his number and will not come up short vs this guy.
Then you look at the other matchups possible. As if Best's vZ is better than Stork's? And Jangbi's sure as hell is better than Best's. Bisu is the best toss out of all 4 of them, but Best is the worst. Best and worst vs 2 very very solid toss. In my op, it's equal if not favoring Khan.
Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
Keep dreaming baby <3
quite you clueless fool
watch some stork vs bisu pvps (the latest one helps. it was during stork's mini "slump.") and then come talk to me. bisu brings the best out of stork. curbstomp my ass
Let's make a bet for their next match.
If Bisu wins the next Bo1, you get banned for a week. If he loses, I get banned for a week.
If Bisu wins the next Bo#, I get your account at some point for a week of my choosing (no mod priveleges will be used EDIT: haha you don't have any). If he loses, I get banned for # x weeks and something else you can propose.
hey dude, did i ever claim that stork would surely win vs bisu? i said it would be a close series, and that i honestly don't know who would win. head to head record and recent games confirm my belief. all i know is that it would be nothing near a curbstomp. stop being retarded and no i am not gonna make stupid bets with you for something i never even claimed. come on fantacist you are not this bad
On July 18 2009 03:45 fanatacist wrote: [quote] Stork and Best are pretty similar in PvP skill, Bisu is clearly superior to both of them currently, and JangBi is somewhere in between or around Stork/Best.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
Keep dreaming baby <3
quite you clueless fool
watch some stork vs bisu pvps (the latest one helps. it was during stork's mini "slump.") and then come talk to me. bisu brings the best out of stork. curbstomp my ass
Let's make a bet for their next match.
If Bisu wins the next Bo1, you get banned for a week. If he loses, I get banned for a week.
If Bisu wins the next Bo#, I get your account at some point for a week of my choosing (no mod priveleges will be used EDIT: haha you don't have any). If he loses, I get banned for # x weeks and something else you can propose.
hey dude, did i ever claim that stork would surely win vs bisu? i said it would be a close series, and that i honestly don't know who would win. head to head record and recent games confirm my belief. all i know is that it would be nothing near a curbstomp. stop being retarded and no i am not gonna make stupid bets with you for something i never even claimed. come on fantacist you are not this bad
Well I know you never said that Stork would win but I thought this would make it more interesting ): People did it before, it wasn't like a "lol homolosers" type thing.
Lifetime head-to-head confirms nothing, same with PL matches that had no weight. Right now Bisu's play is far stronger than Stork's in every MU, period.
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
Keep dreaming baby <3
quite you clueless fool
watch some stork vs bisu pvps (the latest one helps. it was during stork's mini "slump.") and then come talk to me. bisu brings the best out of stork. curbstomp my ass
Let's make a bet for their next match.
If Bisu wins the next Bo1, you get banned for a week. If he loses, I get banned for a week.
If Bisu wins the next Bo#, I get your account at some point for a week of my choosing (no mod priveleges will be used EDIT: haha you don't have any). If he loses, I get banned for # x weeks and something else you can propose.
hey dude, did i ever claim that stork would surely win vs bisu? i said it would be a close series, and that i honestly don't know who would win. head to head record and recent games confirm my belief. all i know is that it would be nothing near a curbstomp. stop being retarded and no i am not gonna make stupid bets with you for something i never even claimed. come on fantacist you are not this bad
Well I know you never said that Stork would win but I thought this would make it more interesting ): People did it before, it wasn't like a "lol homolosers" type thing.
Lifetime head-to-head confirms nothing, same with PL matches that had no weight. Right now Bisu's play is far stronger than Stork's in every MU, period.
yes bisu is stronger overall at the moment but that doesn't mean that much in PvPs of Stork and Bisu. many times they have played each other the "weaker" one has beaten the "stronger" one
Fanboy. Stork whooped Bisu last time they met, and will do so again. Best is horrible currently, slumping even more then Stork and Jangbi.
Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
Keep dreaming baby <3
quite you clueless fool
watch some stork vs bisu pvps (the latest one helps. it was during stork's mini "slump.") and then come talk to me. bisu brings the best out of stork. curbstomp my ass
Let's make a bet for their next match.
If Bisu wins the next Bo1, you get banned for a week. If he loses, I get banned for a week.
If Bisu wins the next Bo#, I get your account at some point for a week of my choosing (no mod priveleges will be used EDIT: haha you don't have any). If he loses, I get banned for # x weeks and something else you can propose.
hey dude, did i ever claim that stork would surely win vs bisu? i said it would be a close series, and that i honestly don't know who would win. head to head record and recent games confirm my belief. all i know is that it would be nothing near a curbstomp. stop being retarded and no i am not gonna make stupid bets with you for something i never even claimed. come on fantacist you are not this bad
Well I know you never said that Stork would win but I thought this would make it more interesting ): People did it before, it wasn't like a "lol homolosers" type thing.
Lifetime head-to-head confirms nothing, same with PL matches that had no weight. Right now Bisu's play is far stronger than Stork's in every MU, period.
Why so much vitriol fana? It's not a big deal. It's like you want to play thought police with people's opinions. OneOther has a different opinion. It's not like he's talking crazy shit like FBH > Bisu. Stork vs Bisu is and always has been a very heated match up. They're both league winners and both have long histories of being dominant toss players. It is far from a foregone conclusion. Say what you want about Stork's slumping but he's no Savior. He's one of the most consistent players of all time.
On July 18 2009 04:11 fanatacist wrote: [quote] Bisu whooped Stork in an MSL Finals setting, when Stork was in better form than he is now and Bisu was not as good as he is now. The loss Bisu has to Stork is on SoT in Proleague, which means fuck-all. Bisu is 8-4 vs. JangBi. Best raped Stork the last time they fought after the Incruit OSL, and is 3-0 vs. JangBi in the past year. Get out.
T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
Keep dreaming baby <3
quite you clueless fool
watch some stork vs bisu pvps (the latest one helps. it was during stork's mini "slump.") and then come talk to me. bisu brings the best out of stork. curbstomp my ass
Let's make a bet for their next match.
If Bisu wins the next Bo1, you get banned for a week. If he loses, I get banned for a week.
If Bisu wins the next Bo#, I get your account at some point for a week of my choosing (no mod priveleges will be used EDIT: haha you don't have any). If he loses, I get banned for # x weeks and something else you can propose.
hey dude, did i ever claim that stork would surely win vs bisu? i said it would be a close series, and that i honestly don't know who would win. head to head record and recent games confirm my belief. all i know is that it would be nothing near a curbstomp. stop being retarded and no i am not gonna make stupid bets with you for something i never even claimed. come on fantacist you are not this bad
Well I know you never said that Stork would win but I thought this would make it more interesting ): People did it before, it wasn't like a "lol homolosers" type thing.
Lifetime head-to-head confirms nothing, same with PL matches that had no weight. Right now Bisu's play is far stronger than Stork's in every MU, period.
Why so much vitriol fana? It's not a big deal. It's like you want to play thought police with people's opinions. OneOther has a different opinion. It's not like he's talking crazy shit like FBH > Bisu. Stork vs Bisu is and always has been a very heated match up. They're both league winners and both have long histories of being dominant toss players. It is far from a foregone conclusion. Say what you want about Stork's slumping but he's no Savior. He's one of the most consistent players of all time.
1. Why do you enter this conversation, that is over, to tell me this? "play thought police" LOL please stop you're cracking me up.
2. He is below 50% since June 1st. How is that consistent? Yea he was consistent before, but not anymore.
Do not underestimate Khan when we didn't see their fringe players much on TV. They are progamers still and not far off from S class, just a BO away. On their day they can upset best players like Last did to Stork. I am sure they will take the series tomorrow as the STX lineup is much weaker. The only disadv they got is needing FBH,Stork and Jangbi to win their games.
On July 18 2009 08:36 OneOther wrote: [quote] T1 is obviously better than KHAN right now, but you can't assume anything in Bisu vs Stork. Stork always plays well against Bisu, and is slightly ahead in head to head. Jangbi and Best are both not at the top of their game right now, so I would expect something around 50-50 there too. (maybe tiny edge towards Best) The equation drastically changes when you mix in Fantasy, who's very good at TvP and TvZ. FBH would have to step up his play for KHAN in order to overcome SKT. Having said that, at least the Samsung Zerg lineup is obviously superior - by.great! (again, not too hot lately but he's solid)
I think it's pretty clear that if you pitted Bisu and Stork in a Bo9 right this moment, Bisu would curbstomp Stork. Stork's form is so bad in almost every match-up, even the good PvT game he played vs. Fantasy he lost, whereas Bisu just 2-0'd Fantasy in the MSL. I agree that Best and Jangbi would be a good game, and that there is a slight edge towards Best. I was only talking about the Protosses of the respective teams, and I think that right now it's pretty evident that T1 Protoss > KHAN's. Samsung Zerg is definitely better than SKT1's, but that's not much of an accomplishment, and it's not a deep line-up of Zergs either. Fantasy is better than FBH right now. So basically, T1 > Khan.
No. Bisu would not curbstomp Stork. It would be a very close series.
Keep dreaming baby <3
quite you clueless fool
watch some stork vs bisu pvps (the latest one helps. it was during stork's mini "slump.") and then come talk to me. bisu brings the best out of stork. curbstomp my ass
Let's make a bet for their next match.
If Bisu wins the next Bo1, you get banned for a week. If he loses, I get banned for a week.
If Bisu wins the next Bo#, I get your account at some point for a week of my choosing (no mod priveleges will be used EDIT: haha you don't have any). If he loses, I get banned for # x weeks and something else you can propose.
hey dude, did i ever claim that stork would surely win vs bisu? i said it would be a close series, and that i honestly don't know who would win. head to head record and recent games confirm my belief. all i know is that it would be nothing near a curbstomp. stop being retarded and no i am not gonna make stupid bets with you for something i never even claimed. come on fantacist you are not this bad
Well I know you never said that Stork would win but I thought this would make it more interesting ): People did it before, it wasn't like a "lol homolosers" type thing.
Lifetime head-to-head confirms nothing, same with PL matches that had no weight. Right now Bisu's play is far stronger than Stork's in every MU, period.
Why so much vitriol fana? It's not a big deal. It's like you want to play thought police with people's opinions. OneOther has a different opinion. It's not like he's talking crazy shit like FBH > Bisu. Stork vs Bisu is and always has been a very heated match up. They're both league winners and both have long histories of being dominant toss players. It is far from a foregone conclusion. Say what you want about Stork's slumping but he's no Savior. He's one of the most consistent players of all time.
1. Why do you enter this conversation, that is over, to tell me this? "play thought police" LOL please stop you're cracking me up.
2. He is below 50% since June 1st. How is that consistent? Yea he was consistent before, but not anymore.
Over? I wrote it a few hours after you. Just coz you wake up the next day and finally see it doesn't mean it came out of left field. And yeah, you're trying to play thought police. If you have anything better than LOL, I'd be glad to hear it. But as is, you're just acting obnoxious.
And you can't take a 6 week span of time and call him inconsistent. Nada is touted as the most consistent SC player of all time. I'm sure he's had a 6 week span with just as poor play. Try taking Stork's actual lifetime record and ask yourself which year he didn't show up. 2009 is only halfway done. If it goes to December and he doesn't make a semi-finals I'll be ready to say he dropped the ball.
great series against STX, but lack of really good vZ players is going to hurt Khan's chances of beating out CJ.. If they can beat CJ, I'd say they have a pretty good chance in the finals
Samsung played really well today. Congratulations to them. Oh and Musoeum, on your thread you put a little logo of Samsung KHAN. I have a bigger one if you want:
On July 19 2009 17:08 ArvickHero wrote: great series against STX, but lack of really good vZ players is going to hurt Khan's chances of beating out CJ.. If they can beat CJ, I'd say they have a pretty good chance in the finals
Yeah, I agree. If they make it past CJ, their vZ issues will be over. Between SKT and Hwaseung, there's only one zerg to fear. And tbh, I think Samsung did a pretty damn good job vZ in this series. If you look at it, out of the 7 games with CJ zerg it was 3:4 Khan's favor. And one of those wins for CJ was by.hero vP on Neo Medusa. Also, the other one was Calm vs Juni?? Lol really doesn't say much. The only legit win CJ's zergs had was vs FBH. Great straight raped them in ZvZ.
On July 19 2009 17:08 ArvickHero wrote: great series against STX, but lack of really good vZ players is going to hurt Khan's chances of beating out CJ.. If they can beat CJ, I'd say they have a pretty good chance in the finals
Yeah, I agree. If they make it past CJ, their vZ issues will be over. Between SKT and Hwaseung, there's only one zerg to fear. And tbh, I think Samsung did a pretty damn good job vZ in this series. If you look at it, out of the 7 games with CJ zerg it was 3:4 Khan's favor. And one of those wins for CJ was by.hero vP on Neo Medusa. Also, the other one was Calm vs Juni?? Lol really doesn't say much. The only legit win CJ's zergs had was vs FBH. Great straight raped them in ZvZ.
EffOrt is just a bit better nowadays though...
He sports the 2nd best ZvZ by a wide margin and is Jaedong's one threat in that matchup.
Yeah, you're right. I'd even venture to say Effort's more than a "bit" better . Although I don't think they've got quite as many talented zergs like STX does. Like Effort can only snipe one player, whereas STX could field zergs on 2-3 diff maps and all of them would have what it takes to bring down JB or Stork. This time around, January only has to worry about one zerg sniper. I mean Kwanro could try, but I just don't see him as a reliable counter to Stork/JB. But in SC, anything is possible.
On July 20 2009 04:55 BisuBoi wrote: Yeah, you're right. I'd even venture to say Effort's more than a "bit" better . Although I don't think they've got quite as many talented zergs like STX does. Like Effort can only snipe one player, whereas STX could field zergs on 2-3 diff maps and all of them would have what it takes to bring down JB or Stork. This time around, January only has to worry about one zerg sniper. I mean Kwanro could try, but I just don't see him as a reliable counter to Stork/JB. But in SC, anything is possible.
On July 20 2009 04:55 BisuBoi wrote: Yeah, you're right. I'd even venture to say Effort's more than a "bit" better . Although I don't think they've got quite as many talented zergs like STX does. Like Effort can only snipe one player, whereas STX could field zergs on 2-3 diff maps and all of them would have what it takes to bring down JB or Stork. This time around, January only has to worry about one zerg sniper. I mean Kwanro could try, but I just don't see him as a reliable counter to Stork/JB. But in SC, anything is possible.
Kwanro always screws up stork -.-
stork's horrible right now but kwanro doesn't "always screw him up." see Lost Saga MSL Ro16.
for the record, i think deathgod6 bumping this thread and acting smug when he's a) not a cj fan and b) clearly only trying to rub it in OneOther's face
On July 27 2009 05:32 Hot_Bid wrote: for the record, i think deathgod6 bumping this thread and acting smug when he's a) not a cj fan and b) clearly only trying to rub it in OneOther's face
is really assholish
Take things into your own (powerful)hands and edit his post to say something like "wow, khan really surprised me by romping CJ in the 1st match"
Khan pretty much pushed CJ harder than they've been so far, with their back-up players stepping up their games and Stork playing a very good game against Effort. With the exception of Juni and FBH, the Khan players gave it their all and came so close to victory.
Miracle's clutch performance was great to watch, watching him truly step up his game when it was needed the most. This experience should be great for him, and he'll be a valuable asset for Khan next season.
Yea, Khan proved their worth and abilities and gave us all an almost heart beat attack break. They definitely did well in playoffs and far exceed what we initially thought unlike their performance they performed in the previous rounds prior to this playoffs. But yes, it was close, Khan still have their momentum and power to pull this off, and I'm sure they have a better shot than the other half of the PL teams if they use the same feat tactics as they did toward next season. GG Khan.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5610/khanq.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1247725030_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/59.jpg)
Stork![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/43.jpg)
firebathero![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/63.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/58.jpg)
by.great![[image loading]](http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2696/96676427.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/ISHF/3.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/data/file/kangfree/2000945833_32ece25d_090719lock.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4898/januaryfacepalm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1505/ec9db4ec84b1ec9d80jx4.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4046/4783510acac3fnormalbg9.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/44.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/ManaBlue/Stork/Stork1.JPG)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Stork_%28Palic%2C_Serbia%29.jpg/401px-Stork_%28Palic%2C_Serbia%29.jpg)
