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Wow, dude, you sound upset. If you're "doing something for the community" then you should do it effortlessly without any expectation of reward. When you do something you love you expect nothing in return.
This is what makes TL different. The contributors. We thank them, sometimes, but most of the time they do it coz they love sc and they largelly go unnoticed. So, take a chill pill. This site is the reason you were able to compile something in the first place. Not to mention that it's the site that'll give you the most views. Why would u come here and bash people for bashing you???? I don't understand.
EDIT: With regards to blackballing and elitism. Well, I think TL has been pretty adamant about rooting out bad posters and people who are unjustly opinionated. Hence, I think there is something to feel elitist about. On average, this is probably one of the better forums out there.. so, again, chill.
I don't see how any of that correlates to what LoA said. SC:L doesn't expect a reward, just some common courtesy. I figured that the article would get some criticism because SC:L doesn't have as many knowledgeable progaming writers as they did in the past, but when you see people complaining about stupid shit like "you transposed one letter in one word, therefore this article is trash" it's a downer to say the least. Actually, I can't figure out whether it's a joke or people are just running out of things to complain about. Granted, it's pimpest plays, so it should be subject to more scrutiny, but it's an editing mistake that could have been missed by virtually anybody.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone that the reason it is so late in the first place is because while pimpest plays are fun to read, they're not as fun to write. The TL writers who volunteered to help w/ the writing all flaked, as did the SC:L people who were originally working on it. We don't live in a perfect world. SC:L appreciates constructive criticism, but please don't bash them for doing the things that nobody else wants to do.
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On May 26 2009 10:54 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 10:38 MaZza[KIS] wrote:
Why would u come here and bash people for bashing you???? I don't understand.
You don't understand why people don't appreciate being bashed?
No... I don't understand why you would COME ON TL to bash TL. He's doing the exact thing that everyone else is.
On May 26 2009 11:48 Gradius wrote:
I don't see how any of that correlates to what LoA said. SC:L doesn't expect a reward, just some common courtesy. I figured that the article would get some criticism because SC:L doesn't have as many knowledgeable progaming writers as they did in the past, but when you see people complaining about stupid shit like "you transposed one letter in one word, therefore this article is trash" it's a downer to say the least. Actually, I can't figure out whether it's a joke or people are just running out of things to complain about. Granted, it's pimpest plays, so it should be subject to more scrutiny, but it's an editing mistake that could have been missed by virtually anybody.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone that the reason it is so late in the first place is because while pimpest plays are fun to read, they're not as fun to write. The TL writers who volunteered to help w/ the writing all flaked, as did the SC:L people who were originally working on it. We don't live in a perfect world. SC:L appreciates constructive criticism, but please don't bash them for doing the things that nobody else wants to do.
Wow man... there are so many contradictions in what you wrote, not to mention the dismissive logic and deterministic attitude. Really there is no point arguing with you so I wont. I'll just give you the simple COURTESY of acknowledging what you wrote? Does that suffice?
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After this many years of pimpest plays continually being late you don't expect people to actually care if it was worth the wait?
I've been here since the begining, I went to SCL long before teamliquid, I was reading the hype about the project from very start as teasers and over the years the quality of the project has slowly gotten lower and slower. I am not the type to search other websites for content and bash it, but SCL ruined its reputation on this project a long time ago.
That said I miss the effort , love and care that used to be put into PP's plays and make us create threads wondering when it was coming out, and rechecking every couple of days just because you know it will be great.
That said I do like all projects that are put out into the community. I hope the pp's 2008 actually are the creme of the crop rather then some of the ones choosen for 2007.
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I usually hate criticizing things like this, but the quality definitely wasn't up to the previous years. Mostly the quality of the writing.
"Proxy is the synonym for a blistering, creative rush. Or maybe it won't be, this time. Or maybe it will simply daze you, as it did to ever)T(Sheis."
I'm genuinely confused as to whats going on in these sentences.
"Some inhuman feat of speed and skill is happening in front of you. Do you gasp or do you scream? The Korean commentators decide for you."
... what?
If you're looking for people to help with the writing and description, I'll happily volunteer my time.
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On May 26 2009 09:50 LordofAscension wrote:
Yes, I'm so glad most of you found something to bash. I definitely can see all of you that volunteered the 5x billion times that we asked for help have many good things to say. *rolls eyes* It's so great to do something for the community. I can definitely tell that some of the elitism blackballing reputation that TL has is deserved. PP08 will be out and it will be better. We're always trying to improve and constructive criticism is always welcome - bashing not so much.
That being said if anyone is genuinely interested in helping out with PP08 please contact me. We could always use the help of some knowledgable community members.
~LoA
If you will give me the list of plays chosen for 08 I will gladly write it up for you. I can't promise I'll be much much better, since I don't know everything about SC, but I will get it done in a night instead of leaving it to wither for a year.
You're not likely to get loads of help from TL because this is SCL's project, not TL's. If you want to form some kind of official partnership with TL, maybe you can get loads of volunteers, but SCL just seems like a sinking ship. I know that even if you let me do the write-up, it's likely to sit in your hands for months before anything is released. It almost feels better if I just did the video, write-up and web-coding myself, because then I know I could get it out by the end of the week, and it would be as good as PP07. But if I did that, it would be a forum post on TL.
You decide what you wanna do. I like you LoD, I think you got overwhelmed with the responsibilities and regressed a bit and it's not totally fair that there's so much heat coming your way (not directly at you, but at your project). You need to do what's best for PP right now, which in my opinion is to either retire the project, or rehaul the members working on it (and maybe pass the torch).
If this was released promptly, no one would have bashed it. It's just that after 2 years... Well we're a little confused.
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agreed, the video was too short and lacked a lot of stuff. :/
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The PP team should have a video production team and an article writing team.
The video making is the real problem (Perhaps a handful of talented video makers should join MooN). TL can easily do the writing (just look at Final Edits).
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
If anyone is wondering about the quality of the plays for 2007... well... theres a very good reason why there are only 8 plays instead of the usual 10. 2007 sucked as a year for inventive interesting plays. 2008, however, did not and I have a list hidden away in one of TL's hidden forums full of plays ready to unleash upon the world.
On May 26 2009 01:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
And why is Pokju's being proxied "unpimpest"? How is that at all a reflection on his play? Does reacting suboptimally to a brilliant, innovative proxy by the best player in the world qualify for Unpimpest along with trapping your own units when proxying?
The proxy wasn't brilliant or innovative. It's been done before, many times (even has a name for itself), and you would expect progamers to be able to deal with that kinda shit. Pokju just locked up under the pressure and failed spectacularly.
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On May 26 2009 13:06 lolaloc wrote:
The PP team should have a video production team and an article writing team.
The video making is the real problem (Perhaps a handful of talented video makers should join MooN). TL can easily do the writing (just look at Final Edits).
The problem is they're having a serious problem with volunteers, and people dropping out of the project on them. There is unrest in the ranks :O What they need is reliability. People in the project need to have the confidence that it will work out. That comes before assembling a huge team of talented people, in my opinion.
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Plexa when in a pro game or during a game between pro gamers had a manner pylon into doublegate been done?
As far as I know it is the first time it was done on the pro stage and it was the first (and only?) time it was done on peaks in pro game?
If it had been done before I'll be shocked, I really had never seen it done before.
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On May 26 2009 13:19 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 13:06 lolaloc wrote:
The PP team should have a video production team and an article writing team.
The video making is the real problem (Perhaps a handful of talented video makers should join MooN). TL can easily do the writing (just look at Final Edits). The problem is they're having a serious problem with volunteers, and people dropping out of the project on them. There is unrest in the ranks :O What they need is reliability. People in the project need to have the confidence that it will work out. That comes before assembling a huge team of talented people, in my opinion.
I agree with you, simply saying that 'teamliquid can handle the writing' when according to someone involved with the project all the teamliquid writers who offered , ended up not doing it.
Final Edits are the pure unadulturated passion writing of some of our most talented members just because they donate time and intelect to write those does not mean they will be motivated to be part of a larger project for another website.
I will gladly create lists for 2008 and do sections of a larger writeup. Although a sharp eyed editor must be around for anything I write, even word collapses under the weight of my spelling and grammar.
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On May 26 2009 09:50 LordofAscension wrote:
Yes, I'm so glad most of you found something to bash. I definitely can see all of you that volunteered the 5x billion times that we asked for help have many good things to say. *rolls eyes* It's so great to do something for the community. I can definitely tell that some of the elitism blackballing reputation that TL has is deserved. PP08 will be out and it will be better. We're always trying to improve and constructive criticism is always welcome - bashing not so much.
That being said if anyone is genuinely interested in helping out with PP08 please contact me. We could always use the help of some knowledgable community members.
~LoA
BZZT. Wrong. Effort is always appreciated, albeit usually silently, but when you work on something that's loved by so many and hyped to heaven and hell, and the end result happens to be lacklustre, people are allowed to criticise the execution. The writing was piss-poor at times, the quality of the YouTube videos were horrible. It's nice that PP07 was finally completed (I have every previous edition of Pimpest Plays on my hard drive for fuck's sake), but I'd rather have waited another 4 months if that's what it would have taken for someone to do a spell check before posting it. Once again: Appreciate the effort, disappointed at the result.
The people who said that contributions are made by people who write stuff because they want to - without expecting thanks or kudos - is absolutely right. You can't make stuff just to get props for it, or even hoping that's all you'll get, or even that you'll get ANY. Trust me, that's not the way to go. I worked hard to compose an article in my Blog (shameless plug). It accumulated a grand total of 9 replies. But I didn't write it so that TeamLiquid would thank me for my work or tell me how awesome I am.
Now, if I find an article particularly well written or inspiring, or if I just appreciate all the hard work someone's done for the community, I've the habit of contacting them and genuinely thanking them. Just ask Plexa, ask JWD. But PP07? You want me to applaud and congratulate people on another job well done when the presentation was nowhere near the excellence of the previous entries? Not going to happen.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 26 2009 09:50 LordofAscension wrote:
Yes, I'm so glad most of you found something to bash. I definitely can see all of you that volunteered the 5x billion times that we asked for help have many good things to say. *rolls eyes* It's so great to do something for the community. I can definitely tell that some of the elitism blackballing reputation that TL has is deserved. PP08 will be out and it will be better. We're always trying to improve and constructive criticism is always welcome - bashing not so much.
That being said if anyone is genuinely interested in helping out with PP08 please contact me. We could always use the help of some knowledgable community members.
~LoA
PP07 was going to be better than PP06 was going to be better than PP05 was going to be better than PP04.
If you're going to release the best plays of 2007 in May of 2009, the least you can do is run a spell-check on it.
The response is always "Constructive criticism is always appreciated but you telling us we're not good is not". I don't understand what kind of criticism you're looking for. The writing here is bad. Unquestionably, unspeakably, unreadably, embarrassingly bad. What proper criticism? It's the honest assessment of the situation, and refusing to acknowledge it because it's somehow not "constructive" doesn't make it any more readable.
"Well I don't see YOU doing anything" is the other response. So? No, really, so? Am I expected to fawn over PP07, just because you did something? This isn't elementary school, where any kind of "effort" is praised. Do good, solid work and you'll be recognized for it. Why do you expect us to fawn over a piece of crap you obviously put very little effort into?
There's a knee-jerk reaction on this forum to instinctively praise anything people produce for the community on their free time. But I simply don't understand why "contributing" is a shield against honest, truthful criticism of your work when it's genuinely terrible. If I bake shitty cookies and bring them to my friends, they shouldn't pretend they're great and tell me what a wonderful cook I am, they should tell me that my cookies are terrible, and while the effort is appreciated, I really need to find a goddamn recipe book or something.
There's a difference between being mean-spirited, which discourages contribution, and honest criticism, which exposes bad, lackluster efforts. And to be truthful, if all you're contributing to the community are giant turds you call writing, then I really don't care if you get discouraged from contributing.
On May 26 2009 05:14 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 01:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Who the fuck did they get to write this? This is hideously embarrassing writing. To be honest, a lot of TL's articles make me react in basically the same way. They're frequently full of bad English, stupid metaphors, and mistakes that would be caught by any decent editor. I don't comment or complain because it really doesn't seem right--these guys are writing articles in their spare time and for free. But if we're going to start picking apart articles like this, we might as well start picking apart all the front page articles here on TL as well.
I agree completely.
On May 26 2009 13:13 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 01:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
And why is Pokju's being proxied "unpimpest"? How is that at all a reflection on his play? Does reacting suboptimally to a brilliant, innovative proxy by the best player in the world qualify for Unpimpest along with trapping your own units when proxying? The proxy wasn't brilliant or innovative. It's been done before, many times (even has a name for itself), and you would expect progamers to be able to deal with that kinda shit. Pokju just locked up under the pressure and failed spectacularly.
Chill spent several pages on TL defending how Pokju played, saying there was no way Pokju could have defended except by opening Forge-first. Now, I disagree with him, but it's probably indicative that Pokju's play was certainly not worthy of being singled out for scorn compared to all the other 2007 mistakes, especially when dealing with a highly unusual cheese (show me another example of a manner pylon into double manner gate) by the best player in the world at the time.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On May 26 2009 21:01 GrandInquisitor wrote:Chill spent several pages on TL defending how Pokju played, saying there was no way Pokju could have defended except by opening Forge-first. Now, I disagree with him, but it's probably indicative that Pokju's play was certainly not worthy of being singled out for scorn compared to all the other 2007 mistakes, especially when dealing with a highly unusual cheese (show me another example of a manner pylon into double manner gate) by the best player in the world at the time.
lol I was reading that thread and came across this
On September 27 2007 05:10 Chill wrote:
Umm, I was made a mod to help revamp the strategy forum. Some changes will be happening soon.
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konadora
Singapore66363 Posts
They spelt 'Savior' wrongly 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 26 2009 13:50 AttackZerg wrote:
Plexa when in a pro game or during a game between pro gamers had a manner pylon into doublegate been done?
As far as I know it is the first time it was done on the pro stage and it was the first (and only?) time it was done on peaks in pro game?
If it had been done before I'll be shocked, I really had never seen it done before.
Only time i know on the prostage (because its such a "fuck you" to your opponents skill). But I do know it has been used at WCG for instance (especially in european countries)
Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 13:13 Plexa wrote:On May 26 2009 01:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
And why is Pokju's being proxied "unpimpest"? How is that at all a reflection on his play? Does reacting suboptimally to a brilliant, innovative proxy by the best player in the world qualify for Unpimpest along with trapping your own units when proxying? The proxy wasn't brilliant or innovative. It's been done before, many times (even has a name for itself), and you would expect progamers to be able to deal with that kinda shit. Pokju just locked up under the pressure and failed spectacularly. Chill spent several pages on TL defending how Pokju played, saying there was no way Pokju could have defended except by opening Forge-first. Now, I disagree with him, but it's probably indicative that Pokju's play was certainly not worthy of being singled out for scorn compared to all the other 2007 mistakes, especially when dealing with a highly unusual cheese (show me another example of a manner pylon into double manner gate) by the best player in the world at the time.
If you want to point out some other mistakes from 2007 be my guest  although the Flower kill-my-gas-to-hide-speed-then-reveal-it-anyway game was in 2008.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 26 2009 21:55 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 13:13 Plexa wrote:On May 26 2009 01:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
And why is Pokju's being proxied "unpimpest"? How is that at all a reflection on his play? Does reacting suboptimally to a brilliant, innovative proxy by the best player in the world qualify for Unpimpest along with trapping your own units when proxying? The proxy wasn't brilliant or innovative. It's been done before, many times (even has a name for itself), and you would expect progamers to be able to deal with that kinda shit. Pokju just locked up under the pressure and failed spectacularly. Chill spent several pages on TL defending how Pokju played, saying there was no way Pokju could have defended except by opening Forge-first. Now, I disagree with him, but it's probably indicative that Pokju's play was certainly not worthy of being singled out for scorn compared to all the other 2007 mistakes, especially when dealing with a highly unusual cheese (show me another example of a manner pylon into double manner gate) by the best player in the world at the time. I can show you other examples of manner pylon - manner gate, albeit not from proleague but they do exist (and is known for existing). I don't think you could call that several pages of Chill defending it either, although he certainly shared his opinion on page 1. With that said, nothing against Chill of course, but the strategy isn't very good, hence why you do not see it very often (else we would use it every game correct?). Like I said, the reason Pokju lost - above everything else - is because he locked up and failed. I really do not consider what Bisu did to be "pimp" in any sense of the word (seeing as it was done before, and was clearly a much better player shitting on someone much worse than him). But it was hilarious, and thats why its on the list. If you want to point out some other mistakes from 2007 be my guest although the Flower kill-my-gas-to-hide-speed-then-reveal-it-anyway game was in 2008.
Midas accidentally quitting the game vs. Light
Stork v. FBH, trapped one of his DT in his proxy (though not as gamechanging as Kingdumb)
Iris v. Shark, Shark forgetting lurker aspect, has to attack with mass hydra
Iris v. Savior, Iris dropping SCV's
Testie forgetting range against Bisu
Nony forgetting storm in TSL
Hwasin self-erasering + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r32glwAWgjE
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On May 26 2009 22:15 GrandInquisitor wrote:Midas accidentally quitting the game vs. Light Stork v. FBH, trapped one of his DT in his proxy (though not as gamechanging as Kingdumb) Iris v. Shark, Shark forgetting lurker aspect, has to attack with mass hydra Iris v. Savior, Iris dropping SCV's Testie forgetting range against Bisu Nony forgetting storm in TSL Hwasin self-erasering + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r32glwAWgjE
TSL was 2008, right?
Holy faggot shit... what a blunder by not even including those unpimpest plays...
Hwasin vs JiHyun (April 4, 2007)
Midas vs Light (May 5, 2007)
Testie vs Bisu (May 19, 2007)
Shark vs Iris (May 25, 2007)
Stork vs firebathero (July 5, 2007)
Every game of Iris facing sAviOr is from 2007.
Wow, there were just so many unpimpest that it should have been like a few pimpest and all of these.
How could SCL miss out these?!
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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EPT
