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Braavos36376 Posts
On May 26 2009 09:50 LordofAscension wrote:
Yes, I'm so glad most of you found something to bash. I definitely can see all of you that volunteered the 5x billion times that we asked for help have many good things to say. *rolls eyes* It's so great to do something for the community. I can definitely tell that some of the elitism blackballing reputation that TL has is deserved. PP08 will be out and it will be better. We're always trying to improve and constructive criticism is always welcome - bashing not so much.
That being said if anyone is genuinely interested in helping out with PP08 please contact me. We could always use the help of some knowledgable community members.
~LoA
I agree with GrandInquisitor here. People are way too defensive about contributing free time. It is not a full shield against criticism. If the writing is bad, it's bad, and we shouldn't hold our opinions simply because its volunteer work. How else can we really produce quality content without having higher standards for ourselves? SCL really should have just fixed these ridiculously obvious writing errors, and there wouldn't be quite as much criticism. LoA, this isn't an issue of volunteer work. Anyone with a post college level writing can spend an hour and make the article vastly better.
This:
I can definitely tell that some of the elitism blackballing reputation that TL has is deserved.
...is an unnecessary attack that I didn't expect from you.
Saying the writing is bad isn't bashing. It's a very easy and doable improvement that frankly should have been considered by you guys. Its your responsibility to fix these sort of things. Nobody is going to come to you and volunteer to edit the final draft. Either spend the hour and do it yourself or PM all the TL writers and ask for some help to edit. I'm sure someone would have helped you out considering how easy it would be to fix some of these problems.
edit: I reopened this, and hopefully people will take a more considerate tone. No more flames please.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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United States17042 Posts
On May 26 2009 21:55 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 13:50 AttackZerg wrote:
Plexa when in a pro game or during a game between pro gamers had a manner pylon into doublegate been done?
As far as I know it is the first time it was done on the pro stage and it was the first (and only?) time it was done on peaks in pro game?
If it had been done before I'll be shocked, I really had never seen it done before. Only time i know on the prostage (because its such a "fuck you" to your opponents skill). But I do know it has been used at WCG for instance (especially in european countries) Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 13:13 Plexa wrote:On May 26 2009 01:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
And why is Pokju's being proxied "unpimpest"? How is that at all a reflection on his play? Does reacting suboptimally to a brilliant, innovative proxy by the best player in the world qualify for Unpimpest along with trapping your own units when proxying? The proxy wasn't brilliant or innovative. It's been done before, many times (even has a name for itself), and you would expect progamers to be able to deal with that kinda shit. Pokju just locked up under the pressure and failed spectacularly. Chill spent several pages on TL defending how Pokju played, saying there was no way Pokju could have defended except by opening Forge-first. Now, I disagree with him, but it's probably indicative that Pokju's play was certainly not worthy of being singled out for scorn compared to all the other 2007 mistakes, especially when dealing with a highly unusual cheese (show me another example of a manner pylon into double manner gate) by the best player in the world at the time. I can show you other examples of manner pylon - manner gate, albeit not from proleague but they do exist (and is known for existing). I don't think you could call that several pages of Chill defending it either, although he certainly shared his opinion on page 1. With that said, nothing against Chill of course, but the strategy isn't very good, hence why you do not see it very often (else we would use it every game correct?). Like I said, the reason Pokju lost - above everything else - is because he locked up and failed. I really do not consider what Bisu did to be "pimp" in any sense of the word (seeing as it was done before, and was clearly a much better player shitting on someone much worse than him). But it was hilarious, and thats why its on the list. If you want to point out some other mistakes from 2007 be my guest  although the Flower kill-my-gas-to-hide-speed-then-reveal-it-anyway game was in 2008.
This topic should probably be reopened in another thread, but as a theoretical exercise, what is the proper response to horror gates...?
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Braavos36376 Posts
fyi i think bisu vs pokju should be pimpest plays not unpimpest.
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is awesome32277 Posts
On May 27 2009 02:40 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 21:55 Plexa wrote:On May 26 2009 13:50 AttackZerg wrote:
Plexa when in a pro game or during a game between pro gamers had a manner pylon into doublegate been done?
As far as I know it is the first time it was done on the pro stage and it was the first (and only?) time it was done on peaks in pro game?
If it had been done before I'll be shocked, I really had never seen it done before. Only time i know on the prostage (because its such a "fuck you" to your opponents skill). But I do know it has been used at WCG for instance (especially in european countries) On May 26 2009 13:13 Plexa wrote:On May 26 2009 01:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
And why is Pokju's being proxied "unpimpest"? How is that at all a reflection on his play? Does reacting suboptimally to a brilliant, innovative proxy by the best player in the world qualify for Unpimpest along with trapping your own units when proxying? The proxy wasn't brilliant or innovative. It's been done before, many times (even has a name for itself), and you would expect progamers to be able to deal with that kinda shit. Pokju just locked up under the pressure and failed spectacularly. Chill spent several pages on TL defending how Pokju played, saying there was no way Pokju could have defended except by opening Forge-first. Now, I disagree with him, but it's probably indicative that Pokju's play was certainly not worthy of being singled out for scorn compared to all the other 2007 mistakes, especially when dealing with a highly unusual cheese (show me another example of a manner pylon into double manner gate) by the best player in the world at the time. I can show you other examples of manner pylon - manner gate, albeit not from proleague but they do exist (and is known for existing). I don't think you could call that several pages of Chill defending it either, although he certainly shared his opinion on page 1. With that said, nothing against Chill of course, but the strategy isn't very good, hence why you do not see it very often (else we would use it every game correct?). Like I said, the reason Pokju lost - above everything else - is because he locked up and failed. I really do not consider what Bisu did to be "pimp" in any sense of the word (seeing as it was done before, and was clearly a much better player shitting on someone much worse than him). But it was hilarious, and thats why its on the list. If you want to point out some other mistakes from 2007 be my guest although the Flower kill-my-gas-to-hide-speed-then-reveal-it-anyway game was in 2008. This topic should probably be reopened in another thread, but as a theoretical exercise, what is the proper response to horror gates...?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=59865
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Braavos36376 Posts
On May 26 2009 05:14 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 01:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Who the fuck did they get to write this? This is hideously embarrassing writing. To be honest, a lot of TL's articles make me react in basically the same way. They're frequently full of bad English, stupid metaphors, and mistakes that would be caught by any decent editor. I don't comment or complain because it really doesn't seem right--these guys are writing articles in their spare time and for free. But if we're going to start picking apart articles like this, we might as well start picking apart all the front page articles here on TL as well.
I agree. We could make our news, editorials, and other coverage much more comprehensive and better written. However, there is a huge difference between many frequent weekly updates and news posts made on constantly changing information and a once a year posting. There is absolutely no reason to have any sort of major spelling or grammatical errors in PP when you have over three years to write it and no deadline. Many of these errors could be fixed in less than 1 hour of editing. If the community can wait two years for PP2007, we can wait another 2 hours for someone to edit the writing. Is it really urgent to post PP2007 that minute given the huge delay already? There's absolutely no rush.
A huge part of TL's identity is based on the fact that we have higher standards. We have always had a hard time finding our place in e-Sports world, never knowing our true worth. We can settle for less than ordinary standards, but we feel that TL is meant for something better. Something special. Most of our writers have been staff for less twelve months. They are responsible for 800 quality articles, including the one you read yesterday. I dare you to do better. Enlist in TeamLiquid.
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I can't say that I wasn't at least a little disappointed, but seriously, you call Pokju's play unpimpest and yet you don't show the accidental alt-qq from Midas? Really? That was probably the most unpimp play IN HISTORY.
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Is it just me or did the vids disappear?
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On May 27 2009 02:28 Hot_Bid wrote:This: Show nested quote +I can definitely tell that some of the elitism blackballing reputation that TL has is deserved. ...is an unnecessary attack that I didn't expect from you. Saying the writing is bad isn't bashing. It's a very easy and doable improvement that frankly should have been considered by you guys. Its your responsibility to fix these sort of things. Nobody is going to come to you and volunteer to edit the final draft. Either spend the hour and do it yourself or PM all the TL writers and ask for some help to edit. I'm sure someone would have helped you out considering how easy it would be to fix some of these problems. edit: I reopened this, and hopefully people will take a more considerate tone. No more flames please.
Saying the writing is bad certainly isn't bashing - the way in which that criticism is delivered certainly can be construed as bashing. I think you've totally missed the point of what I was trying to say. Whatever. It's in the past. We'll move on.
Edit: Good thing I have a college degree - I'll go spend that hour now.
~LoA
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Braavos36376 Posts
On May 27 2009 03:09 LordofAscension wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 02:28 Hot_Bid wrote:This: I can definitely tell that some of the elitism blackballing reputation that TL has is deserved. ...is an unnecessary attack that I didn't expect from you. Saying the writing is bad isn't bashing. It's a very easy and doable improvement that frankly should have been considered by you guys. Its your responsibility to fix these sort of things. Nobody is going to come to you and volunteer to edit the final draft. Either spend the hour and do it yourself or PM all the TL writers and ask for some help to edit. I'm sure someone would have helped you out considering how easy it would be to fix some of these problems. edit: I reopened this, and hopefully people will take a more considerate tone. No more flames please. Saying the writing is bad certainly isn't bashing - the way in which that criticism is delivered certainly can be construed as bashing. I think you've totally missed the point of what I was trying to say. Whatever. It's in the past. We'll move on. Edit: Good thing I have a college degree - I'll go spend that hour now. ~LoA
If you have an issue with how the criticism is delivered, the same can be said about your unnecessarily sarcastic response, which included stuff like "eyeroll" and a blanket general insult to all of TL. Are you saying this is the correct way to respond? Many people gave perfectly fine criticism, but when you respond like you did, what do you expect them to say?
I don't think I missed your point at all. If you really are going to go back and edit it, that's great news, and hopefully next time it can be done before it's released.
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On May 27 2009 03:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
If you have an issue with how the criticism is delivered, the same can be said about your response, which is unnecessarily sarcastic, with stuff like "eyeroll" and a blanket general insult to all of TL. Are you saying this is the correct way to respond? Many people gave perfectly fine criticism, but when you respond like you did, what do you expect them to say?
I don't think I missed your point at all. If you really are going to go back and edit it, that's great news, and hopefully next time it can be done before it's released.
How many times have I responded to criticism here @ TL with anything less that apology and grace? And I really don't think I blanket insulted all of TL. My original formatting italicized "some" since every site has some bad apples. I'm proud to be a member of TL and I very much enjoy most of what goes on here. My statement I think is fair. Some people did give appropriate criticism but then again my statements wouldn't apply to them would they? If the bashing wasn't an issue then my reply wouldn't have been how it was; cause and effect.
Yes, I really am editting it. I guess if you want something done right you have to do it yourself.
~LoA
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On May 27 2009 02:56 Hot_Bid wrote:
I dare you to do better. Enlist in TeamLiquid.
Yeah, this is why I don't comment on the sometimes less-than-perfect writing. The majority of my work involves writing, reading, and correcting papers. I really don't want to do more writing or editing in my spare time!
But you make a good point about having multiple years and no deadline for the PP writeup. I was thinking about including that in my original post. Not sure why I didn't. :/
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Braavos36376 Posts
On May 27 2009 03:41 LordofAscension wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 03:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
If you have an issue with how the criticism is delivered, the same can be said about your response, which is unnecessarily sarcastic, with stuff like "eyeroll" and a blanket general insult to all of TL. Are you saying this is the correct way to respond? Many people gave perfectly fine criticism, but when you respond like you did, what do you expect them to say?
I don't think I missed your point at all. If you really are going to go back and edit it, that's great news, and hopefully next time it can be done before it's released. How many times have I responded to criticism here @ TL with anything less that apology and grace? And I really don't think I blanket insulted all of TL. My original formatting italicized "some" since every site has some bad apples. I'm proud to be a member of TL and I very much enjoy most of what goes on here. My statement I think is fair. Some people did give appropriate criticism but then again my statements wouldn't apply to them would they? If the bashing wasn't an issue then my reply wouldn't have been how it was; cause and effect. Yes, I really am editting it. I guess if you want something done right you have to do it yourself. ~LoA
I feel nobody is 100% in the right here. You obviously would rather go back and spend some time editing, and I'm sure the language could have been toned down in some of the criticisms. The knee-jerk bash reaction that happens often on TL is an unfortunate but somewhat necessary side effect of the rather high standards (relative to other SC sites) we have. We will try our best to moderate these sort of posts, but defensive responses from the creators don't help. The ICCup Countdown thread is a good example of this, it's hard to step in as a Mod when both sides are participating. Yes, you only made one post and your track record is very good, but that one post really did escalate a lot of what was posted.
On May 27 2009 03:43 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 02:56 Hot_Bid wrote:
I dare you to do better. Enlist in TeamLiquid. Yeah, this is why I don't comment on the sometimes less-than-perfect writing. The majority of my work involves writing, reading, and correcting papers. I really don't want to do more writing or editing in my spare time! But you make a good point about having multiple years and no deadline for the PP writeup. I was thinking about including that in my original post. Not sure why I didn't. :/
Don't worry, I'm not saying don't criticize if you don't volunteer. You should criticize and try to improve TL if just by drawing attention to any sub-par writing you see. That's fine, as long as the criticism isn't unnecessarily hostile or flame-inducing.
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Just curious, is there some one checking for simple and/or obvious writing mistakes here on TL.net, prior to "publication"?
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Braavos36376 Posts
On May 27 2009 04:02 Judicator wrote:
Just curious, is there some one checking for simple and/or obvious writing mistakes here on TL.net, prior to "publication"?
Writers are supposed to do revisions prior to release, but obviously there are some mistakes, and sometimes they are too lazy to do it. I think most of the larger news posts (OSL finals summaries, large FEs, etc) are read through several times, and any errors in them are more a function of length than lack of effort revising.
There is no one person that does this though, I used to do a lot of this and haji too, but we don't have time to check every article anymore. Plexa is currently in charge of writing, but he's very busy currently and grammatical / style correction was never his strength anyway. It's tough to have someone available to do this because of the time-lag on articles which are often completed right before deadlines.
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Holy faggot shit... what a blunder by not even including those unpimpest plays...  [...] How could SCL miss out these?!
Are you aware that the TL editors originally on the PP team were the ones who helped pick out these plays? The "in collaboration with teamliquid" at the bottom of the article isn't just for shits & giggles.
And why is Pokju's being proxied "unpimpest"? How is that at all a reflection on his play? Does reacting suboptimally to a brilliant, innovative proxy by the best player in the world qualify for Unpimpest along with trapping your own units when proxying?
Pokju got into an umpimp situation. I'm sorry that you feel that this is an indictment of his skill.
...but for the next PP, can the YouTube videos not look like ass
Well this is just dumb. How do you expect horrible youtube quality to be fixed when the only other source in existence is other horrible quality YouTube videos? SC:L used an extremely powerful video encoding method when porting the vods to their channel - there is no noticeable quality difference between them and the originals.
I'd rather have waited another 4 months if that's what it would have taken for someone to do a spell check before posting it.
What? A spell check wouldn't have fixed any of the errors you're complaining about. Feet and feat are homonyms that are spelled correctly. =/
There's a difference between being mean-spirited, which discourages contribution, and honest criticism, which exposes bad, lackluster efforts. And to be truthful, if all you're contributing to the community are giant turds you call writing, then I really don't care if you get discouraged from contributing.
"Giant turds you call writing"? I expected the article would have received some criticism for not being up to par with the previous articles, but isn't this a little overkill? Do you honestly think that what you're doing constitutes "honest criticism". Seriously. You didn't just say "this writing isn't as good as the previous PPs," you said "Who the fuck did they get to write this? This is hideously embarrassing writing" in response to a grammar error that virtually anyone could have missed.
I agree. We could make our news, editorials, and other coverage much more comprehensive and better written. However, there is a huge difference between many frequent weekly updates and news posts made on constantly changing information and a once a year posting. There is absolutely no reason to have any sort of major spelling or grammatical errors in PP when you have over three years to write it and no deadline. Many of these errors could be fixed in less than 1 hour of editing. If the community can wait two years for PP2007, we can wait another 2 hours for someone to edit the writing. Is it really urgent to post PP2007 that minute given the huge delay already? There's absolutely no rush.
You're right, grammar errors on a feature that took 2 years to put out are inexcusable. However, when you have like one person staring at the same writing because nobody else wants to do so, such errors are bound to happen. I was on the PP team, and the rest of the SC:L staff read over the article, claiming that it was "fine", and I took their word for it. So the fact that these errors were there in the first place probably grates my nerves a heck of alot more than it does yours. Face it - this is a feature that virtually nobody wants to work on; I have no idea why, but that's just the way it is. All the original writers flaked, and the current SC:L staff had to pick up the pieces.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
"Giant turds you call writing"? I expected the article would have received some criticism for not being up to par with the previous articles, but isn't this a little overkill? Do you honestly think that what you're doing constitutes "honest criticism". Seriously. You didn't just say "this writing isn't as good as the previous PPs," you said "Who the fuck did they get to write this? This is hideously embarrassing writing" in response to a grammar error that virtually anyone could have missed.
Maybe I just have higher standards than others, but I was under the impression that when you have two and a half years to put out a feature article read by tens of thousands of people, an article that's basically your site's only reason for continued existence, you don't make such grade-school level mistakes. It's not just about NaDa and his "inhuman feet of control" while "Yamtoing". The article as a whole is riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes. I would be embarrassed to turn that into any of my professors, from middle school onwards.
Heck, I edit and spell-check my TL forum posts more carefully than that. I called it a giant turd because the absence of effort is most evident in its complete lack of attention to proofreading detail.
I don't doubt that you guys had problems with finding people. But realize that that's just an excuse, and not a justification for why it was so shoddily written. The article is under 3000 words; that's a difficult but by no means impossible task for a single person, especially not when given 2.5 years.
I mean, to extend the cookie analogy: I can make all sorts of excuses about how I couldn't find someone to help me, or how I accidentally dropped the dough mix on the floor, or how my timer didn't go off and so it burned in the oven -- but those are all excuses, not justifications for why I made such shitty cookies, and my friends shouldn't pretend to enjoy them.
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Ok so really the problem with the project is that not enough people on SCL really care enough. That is a simple fix. Pimpest plays could easily be duplicated and undertaken by other parts of the community if SCL isn't able to find the resources to do it.
I am not like GI, I do not have a high level of education and honestly do suck at all areas of writing correctly. That said my biggest grip, since I'm not anal about symantics or spelling is that the pimpest plays should feel fucking epic when I read it. It should be so clearly presented that when one of us show a friend what 'starcraft is', they think holy mother of god! Not "oh ok a video game with dramatic writing".
I would say ripetide(sp maybe) and ver are two of my favorite teamliquid writers right now (hot_bid,plexa, and all the teamliquid ballers are professional quality so what can't you like).
Also we have alot of people who make highlight videos just for fun here.
Maybe teamliquid needs to adopt this project, the fact is that it hasn't been good since 2004, the first two were amazing although the second one was very late it was worth it. Since then I've haven't been 'amazed' at the quality and love behind the project even once.
I will help on any area of this project I can. I'm not just throwing out shit, I actually realize how much I miss how good it used to be.
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On May 27 2009 06:17 Gradius wrote:Well this is just dumb. How do you expect horrible youtube quality to be fixed when the only other source in existence is other horrible quality YouTube videos? SC:L used an extremely powerful video encoding method when porting the vods to their channel - there is no noticeable quality difference between them and the originals.
That's too bad. I appreciate your calling me dumb by inclusion, though. It emphasises your point skilfully.
On May 27 2009 06:17 Gradius wrote:Show nested quote +I'd rather have waited another 4 months if that's what it would have taken for someone to do a spell check before posting it. What? A spell check wouldn't have fixed any of the errors you're complaining about. Feet and feat are homonyms that are spelled correctly. =/
You're right, that excuses the errors. My bad.
Look, I can understand being so defensive if you worked on the article, but it doesn't change anything. The grammar and spelling errors were some of the worst I've seen in a StarCraft article, and the writing was just bad. It wouldn't even matter, except it's Pimpest Plays. People naturally expect better (that's a good thing), so when you pull a Duke Nukem Forever on the article and make your fans wait for something that seems destined to never come, then finally release it after such a long time only to have it be so unpolished? It's very disappointing.
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an article that's basically your site's only reason for continued existence
Well, that's just from your point of view. It would have been much easier for us to ignore the feature and simply focus on our StarCraft II coverage. SC:L is a leading SC2 fansite with one of the largest SC2 communities out there and lots of room for growth.
But realize that that's just an excuse, and not a justification
Agreed. It's a shame that the article couldn't have been better and in my opinion there IS no excuse. However, I'm still not understanding how bashing people makes anything better.
That's too bad. I appreciate your calling me dumb by inclusion, though. It emphasises your point skilfully.
I'm not calling you dumb. Do you disagree that expecting the videos to be higher quality than anything else that exists is unreasonable?
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