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It occurs to me that special maps could be used in individual leagues specially for mirror matches. Racial imbalance wouldn't need to be a concern, so mapmakers could go wild and do whatever they wanted, potentially making mirrors more interesting; as long as positional balance was strictly observed. My idea is that in a mirror series, a positionally imbalanced map such as (Neo) Medusa could be rotated out and practically any positionally balanced map could be brought in.
I think this would be well suited to a tournament like GOM, where there are a lot of mirror series, and every series is known in advance (which somewhat mitigates the problem of gamers having to learn new maps).
As a matter of fact, each mirror matchup could have its own map. Imagine Baekmagoji for ZvZ, Battle Royale for PvP, and Troy for TvT. This would not cause any gamer to have to learn more maps than if only a single mirror map were used. (Each gamer still only has to master one additional map, but audiences get more variety.)
Pros:
Mapmakers could do crazy shit and not worry about ruining balance;
Audiences could get more variety (both in terms of new and interesting maps, and in terms of some mirrors occuring on maps where they don't normally occur, as in the PvP Battle Royale example.)
Cons:
Each player in a tournament run this way would have to learn one additional matchup on one map.
Poll: If this idea were implemented in a GOM-style tournament...
(Vote): I'd hate it.
(Vote): I'd be mildly annoyed.
(Vote): I wouldn't care.
(Vote): I'd be intrigued.
(Vote): I'd like it.
(Vote): I'd be excited.
(For the poll assume that good, interesting mirror maps are chosen.)
What do you think? What maps are/would be great mirror maps? Which mirrors do you wish you could see on which maps? What new features could be used in creating a mirror map, knowing that racial balance is irrelevant and only positional balance matters?
Discuss!
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It's bad for the players...there's a limit to how many maps they can practice per season.
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I still think that having Monty Hall in the TSL would have been fan-freakin-tastic for all those PvPs. So yes, OP, I agree.
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
What do you mean?
Like, make Battle Royal the ZvZ map, Blue Storm the TvT map and Protoss.. uh.. any map?
Or for any mirror just assign 1 single specific map (newly made/redesigned)?
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On May 19 2009 18:00 konadora wrote:
What do you mean?
Like, make Battle Royal the ZvZ map, Blue Storm the TvT map and Protoss.. uh.. any map?
Or for any mirror just assign 1 single specific map (newly made/redesigned)?
Like have a set of maps that normally would be pretty imbalanced between races, but use them only for mirror matchups. Like Troy.
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
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No, leave them as is.
Imagine the most imbalance piece of crap map that was ever made. Something gimmicky, like Troy or Plasma. Then imagine a mirror matchup on the map. All that "imbalance" wouldn't matter. Everyone could sit back and just enjoy the game without the drama.
I think that's what this thread is all about.
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Plasma PvP would be great. I remember that 1base Carriers game lol
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I think that's a great idea. It's also far from having to learn a whole new map since they could simply recycle old maps that went out of use for balance reasons, as mentioned above. Not to mention it's just one match-up. ^^
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
Ah.. sounds awesome.
Although finding a good ZvZ mirror map would be a pain in the ass, it'll end up muta or lings every single time.
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On May 19 2009 17:58 Mortality wrote:
It's bad for the players...there's a limit to how many maps they can practice per season.
Yeah, especially if someone wouldn't have as many mirror mu's as other players. That'd be imba as he wouldn't have to practise as many maps.
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On May 19 2009 18:00 konadora wrote:
What do you mean?
Like, make Battle Royal the ZvZ map, Blue Storm the TvT map and Protoss.. uh.. any map?
Or for any mirror just assign 1 single specific map (newly made/redesigned)?
Let me try to explain it better:
Pretend you are organizing GOM season 4. You choose a normal map pool, taking into consideration the racial balance and how entertaining the maps are. Then you say, "I want something extra for the mirrors. Because racial balance isn't an issue for mirror matches, I'm going to add some racially imbalanced but otherwise fun and interesting maps, and have those maps played only in mirrors. For ZvZ, I think it would be fun to have them play on Baekmagoji because of the double gas. For PvP, Battle Royale for the early goon micro and reaver harass. For TvT, Troy, for the interactions between Tank/Dropship play and the way the Assimilators work. All these maps would be horrible to include in a normal league, but I don't care because I will use them only for mirrors so balance is no problem." Then when Stork plays Bisu in the finals, you remove Neo Medusa from the map pool and add in Battle Royale.
Hope that's clearer, sorry for the wordiness.
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
Sounds great, I like the idea :D
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I have been thinking for awhile about something like this, but not just for mirror matchups. Why not just make some really cool maps and then determine which matchups are balanced for those maps and use them only for those matchups. So if a map like tears of the moon comes up, you dont use it for zvp, but other matchups could use it.
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The idea is indeed intriguing. I'd like to see it a step further lol.
A single race tournament, Protoss, for example.
Pick 16 Protoss players (Idc who, just 16).
Ro16 is a Bo1 - one map
Ro8 is a Bo3 - pick your three
Ro4/GF are Bo5 - pick 5 maps
Each map would be a map that you'd next to never see a Protoss on (Battle Royal, Raid Assault 2, 2 terran imba maps - Wuthering and Othello come to mind, but I wasn't around much longer than GSI and maybe one of the concept maps that got ditched from the Proleague Beta maps)
For Terran you do like Troy, Plasma, Katrina, Blue Storm and something else, and you pick 5 for Zerg. It'd be a lot of the same, but it'd be fun to see. :p
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I like the idea but it would be such a pain to practice for extra maps. And those w/o mirror matchups have more time to practice for less maps, giving them an unfair advantage.
Special event tournament using this would be very cool though.
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I would much rather prefer not having to watch mirror matchups on any maps. I dont think mirror matchups should be encouraged. Sometimes they are very good, but rarely. And even then they lack the dept of the other matches.
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Potential problems I see are:
(1) Mirror matchups are generally not as entertaining as non-mirror. To limit them to only one map will make watching mirrors very repetitive. Not to mention hardly any divergence from strategies.
(2) What are you going to do in a best of 3, best of 5? Same map 5 times?
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Obviously they will play 2 'normal' maps in Bo3 and 4 in Bo5, just add in the one random map as entertainment. As said this is obviously only an idea for leagues, so it will be almost exclusive to Bo3 and Bo5 sets, since it would be really annoying to implement in proleague.
I think its an awesome idea, opens up all kinds of crazy maps that can be used, map makes can finally have freedom to create all kinds of ridiculous(ly entertaining) maps.
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It would be hard for the players but for the fans it'd be great
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On May 19 2009 19:46 DIMJkE wrote:
Potential problems I see are:
(1) Mirror matchups are generally not as entertaining as non-mirror. To limit them to only one map will make watching mirrors very repetitive. Not to mention hardly any divergence from strategies.
(2) What are you going to do in a best of 3, best of 5? Same map 5 times?
You only play the mirror map once in a series, and the whole purpose is to make the mirrors more entertaining.
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I've always tinkered with the idea of different maps for different matchups. It'd be a potentially huge map pool, but any player would still only have to learn about 3-5 maps like they normally would. This would bring a lot more map diversity onto the scene, and potentially make mirror matchups more interesting (ZvZ being the main matchup here, but we've also seen how otherwise horrible maps can make for really tactical TvTs). I guess the real problem with this kind of system would be that it would simply be too many maps for any player to learn properly. Yeah sure, it's only three matchups, but if the other leagues and tournaments do not use this system the map pool suddenly increases drastically.
There's usually a lot of shared maps between the different tournaments, but with this system that would not be the case, unless all the leagues somehow agree to these maps
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
dude thats a pretty cool idea man i would watch it
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Calgary25997 Posts
It ruins competition for me when rules are made like this for specific situations.
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United States17042 Posts
I would watch it. I don't think that the proleagues are ever going to go for it, as attempting to design new and innovative maps with the racial balance seems at least as interesting.
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EPT
