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9070 Posts
On February 25 2009 23:57 fusionsdf wrote:
kind of neat how bisu has the highest peak ELO, while flash has a higher peak ELO in each matchup
I was thinking about the same. I guess both are very close in terms of their vZ and vP MUs, flash is leading with like 5 points in both of them. Seems like the ultimate weapon cant pull it all together at the same time. Its so awkward to have a toss player on top of any bw related chart  Congrats to KTY, the guy, who can
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Funny how he sets the ELO peak and then drops in the same night.
<3 Winners League.
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@ disciple:
Why, it's not awkward, it's imbalanced!
anyways
congrats KTY
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Anyone know if the Bisu - Jaedong games will count as KeSPA sanctioned?
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Braavos36379 Posts
On February 26 2009 01:31 eshlow wrote:
Anyone know if the Bisu - Jaedong games will count as KeSPA sanctioned?
Do you think they should count? I think they will, because it's not really "Blizzcon" level exhibition stuff. It's like Shinhan Masters, which we counted in the TLPD too for ratings purposes. I mean, both players requested it be postponed so that they could practice more.
One could argue that Bisu's ELO peak is less impressive with the current Winner's League format and schedule because it allows him more weak opponents so he can streak towards a higher ELO. Since he is playing a team with only one or two aces of his level, Bisu is basically playing against only one or two truly great players each time and only in one game, with lots of "easy" wins before and after.
Oov, on the other hand, could only achieve his peak mainly through individual leagues (since Proleague didn't have as many matches or games). And we all know how hard it is to build a streak in the OSL or MSL, because as you win your opponents get harder. To be fair to Bisu though, he built his ELO rating through a ridiculous run through the MSL where he dropped only two games, and then burned through the OSL tiebreakers against a very strong field.
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On February 26 2009 01:45 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 01:31 eshlow wrote:
Anyone know if the Bisu - Jaedong games will count as KeSPA sanctioned? Do you think they should count? I think they will, because it's not really "Blizzcon" level exhibition stuff. It's like Shinhan Masters, which we counted in the TLPD too for ratings purposes. I mean, both players requested it be postponed so that they could practice more. One could argue that Bisu's ELO peak is less impressive with the current Winner's League format and schedule because it allows him more weak opponents so he can streak towards a higher ELO. Since he is playing a team with only one or two aces of his level, Bisu is basically playing against only one or two truly great players each time and only in one game, with lots of "easy" wins before and after. Oov, on the other hand, could only achieve his peak mainly through individual leagues (since Proleague didn't have as many matches or games). And we all know how hard it is to build a streak in the OSL or MSL, because as you win your opponents get harder. To be fair to Bisu though, he built his ELO rating through a ridiculous run through the MSL where he dropped only two games, and then burned through the OSL tiebreakers against a very strong field.
And as much as I don't like Bisu, you have to account that dominating, regardless of format (ie: winning games against other players consistently) is much harder TODAY than it ever was in Oov's period for example, due to the ever shrinking skill gaps between the pros. I think this is general consensus, the skill level in general rose ridiculously.
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On February 25 2009 23:59 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
this bisu guy is pretty good at starcraft:broodwar
He's alright.
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I'll be real curious to see if Koreans will start calling him bonjwa after/if he wins this OSL
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Braavos36379 Posts
On February 26 2009 01:53 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 01:45 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 26 2009 01:31 eshlow wrote:
Anyone know if the Bisu - Jaedong games will count as KeSPA sanctioned? Do you think they should count? I think they will, because it's not really "Blizzcon" level exhibition stuff. It's like Shinhan Masters, which we counted in the TLPD too for ratings purposes. I mean, both players requested it be postponed so that they could practice more. One could argue that Bisu's ELO peak is less impressive with the current Winner's League format and schedule because it allows him more weak opponents so he can streak towards a higher ELO. Since he is playing a team with only one or two aces of his level, Bisu is basically playing against only one or two truly great players each time and only in one game, with lots of "easy" wins before and after. Oov, on the other hand, could only achieve his peak mainly through individual leagues (since Proleague didn't have as many matches or games). And we all know how hard it is to build a streak in the OSL or MSL, because as you win your opponents get harder. To be fair to Bisu though, he built his ELO rating through a ridiculous run through the MSL where he dropped only two games, and then burned through the OSL tiebreakers against a very strong field. And as much as I don't like Bisu, you have to account that dominating, regardless of format (ie: winning games against other players consistently) is much harder TODAY than it ever was in Oov's period for example, due to the ever shrinking skill gaps between the pros. I think this is general consensus, the skill level in general rose ridiculously.
I agree completely, I just was pointing out one of the arguments that can be made against Bisu's new ELO peak.
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Wohoo Bisu broke the highest ELO-peak ever! Go Bisu!
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On February 26 2009 01:45 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 01:31 eshlow wrote:
Anyone know if the Bisu - Jaedong games will count as KeSPA sanctioned? One could argue that Bisu's ELO peak is less impressive with the current Winner's League format and schedule because it allows him more weak opponents so he can streak towards a higher ELO. Since he is playing a team with only one or two aces of his level, Bisu is basically playing against only one or two truly great players each time and only in one game, with lots of "easy" wins before and after.
In some ways, you could argue that his ELO peak is more impressive too. When you go in the normal proleague, you have one matchup and map to prepare for. Everything is known beforehand, the way it is in the individual leagues. What happens in the winners league is that you sit down and you know your first opponent through guesswork, or if you're the first person to sit down. However, the more information you have about your opponent/map pairing (as in, the earlier you play), the more likely you are to be sniped, or just run into an unfavorable map/opponent combination, and then lose.
When your ELO is as high as 2300, even if you get 3 kills against 2 crappy and 1 good opponent, your loss will probably cost you as many points as that, and getting 3 kills consistently is quite tough. Bisu tends to go out earlier rather than later, so its much harder for him to gain ELO through the WL, while if he were sent out more like a closer, the way Jangbi is used, he could really gain a lot of points.
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Ahhh jangbi's peak is 2290 now. But + Show Spoiler +losing to yarnc dropped him back down.
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I wonder what would happen now if Bisu wasn't slumping last year. The guy totally deserves what he won. Lots of people were saying Stork this Stork that.. but look Stork is fading yet Bisu is still shining. This is true power. If Bisu can win this OSL most of the people will have to admit that he is No.1. C'mon Bisu set a new ELO Peak that can never be reached and be the best of all time just like you wanted.
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United States12607 Posts
On February 26 2009 01:45 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 01:31 eshlow wrote:
Anyone know if the Bisu - Jaedong games will count as KeSPA sanctioned? One could argue that Bisu's ELO peak is less impressive with the current Winner's League format and schedule because it allows him more weak opponents so he can streak towards a higher ELO. Since he is playing a team with only one or two aces of his level, Bisu is basically playing against only one or two truly great players each time and only in one game, with lots of "easy" wins before and after.
HB, yes the WL format does help S-class players increase their ELO by allowing them to play more games, but I think you're overestimating its effect on ELO for 2 reasons:
1) The WL format is win until you lose. This means that, unless an S-class player can all-kill or get lucky enough to be sent out last, he will end the night with one loss - and, considering the S-class gamer is better than his opponent, his ELO will really suffer for that loss (more than say, it increases for a three-kill? I think it depends on his opponents).
2) This problem is compounded by 2 factors which make it difficult for S-class players to rack up ELO points under a clanwar format more efficiently than they could under a standard PL format: a) snipers. Opposing teams can tell one of their B-level players to practice for a month to beat you, and generally this advantage in preparation will be massive by gametime because S-class players really do not have time to prepare specifically for their 2nd-4th WL games in any match. Example: sKyHigh vs. JD, I'm sure this set Jaedong's ELO back well more than his win against Iris increased it. Sniping is not as much of a problem under the PL format because lineup choices are double-blind, so teams can "hide" their best player, and the S-class player has advance knowledge of his opponent and so can prepare more adequately. b) Maps. As was the case with Bisu and Neo Harmony last night, winning many games in WL usually means fighting an uphill battle against map imbalance. With the number of maps in this WL that have at least one imbalanced matchup (um, basically all of them, but Medusa, Neo Harmony, Sin Chupung-Ryeong, and RH3 are particularly bad I suppose), winning games in the WL becomes even more perilous.
Considering these factors, we should be wary of altering our impression of the relationship between ELO and player skill just because of the WL format. I would argue that Bisu/Flash/JD are at the moment far and away the strongest SC players ever to play the game, and their ELO ranks reflect that - not simply the structure of the leagues these gamers play in.
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Braavos36379 Posts
yeah, i said "one could argue" but i don't actually mean it.
plus for your #1, it's not really until you lose, because plenty of players (Jangbi for one) have gotten a ton of ELO points by closing out the last 1 or 2 wins for their teams, you don't get a loss if your team wins and you're the last player.
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is bisu even +elo in winners league? at his elo peak he was 12-4 so i guess that's around +20 or so. 3-0 or 4-0 in proleague is effectively the same effect, correct?
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Does a protoss player ever hold ELO record before Bisu ?
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United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2009 06:14 Hot_Bid wrote:
yeah, i said "one could argue" but i don't actually mean it.
plus for your #1, it's not really until you lose, because plenty of players (Jangbi for one) have gotten a ton of ELO points by closing out the last 1 or 2 wins for their teams, you don't get a loss if your team wins and you're the last player.
He mentions this. He said it applies unless he's lucky enough to get sent last.
Bisu has only been a closer in 3 WL matches so far. One of them was his all-kill, and one of them he only played 1 match anyway (vs. Anytime). So its hard to say that he's taking great advantage of the WL system, because he's hardly being played consistently as a closer (or at least as a closer and winning).
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On February 26 2009 01:45 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 01:31 eshlow wrote:
Anyone know if the Bisu - Jaedong games will count as KeSPA sanctioned? Do you think they should count? I think they will, because it's not really "Blizzcon" level exhibition stuff. It's like Shinhan Masters, which we counted in the TLPD too for ratings purposes. I mean, both players requested it be postponed so that they could practice more. One could argue that Bisu's ELO peak is less impressive with the current Winner's League format and schedule because it allows him more weak opponents so he can streak towards a higher ELO. Since he is playing a team with only one or two aces of his level, Bisu is basically playing against only one or two truly great players each time and only in one game, with lots of "easy" wins before and after. Oov, on the other hand, could only achieve his peak mainly through individual leagues (since Proleague didn't have as many matches or games). And we all know how hard it is to build a streak in the OSL or MSL, because as you win your opponents get harder. To be fair to Bisu though, he built his ELO rating through a ridiculous run through the MSL where he dropped only two games, and then burned through the OSL tiebreakers against a very strong field.
I think they should count.
Although it may or may not be KeSPA sanctioned, this is an opportunity to see which player is truly better than the other in Bo5 format and ELO gained/lost should reflect that.
As a Bisu fan.. I don't want to say that.. because dropping anymore than 1 game which is CERTAINLY possible will make his overall ELO drop. Not to mention actually losing the series. I am scared of Jaedong. -_-
As stated though I don't think you can really argue whether oov or Bisu (or Jaedong, Flash, etc.) for that matter have had it actually harder or easier. There's the whole knowing who you're playing + time to prepare vs. having no time to prepare + not knowing who you're playing half the time. I think it's pretty interesting the way things have turned out now actually...... but I REALLY want to do the statistical analysis on each players ELO peaks....
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 23 2009 11:08 Hot_Bid wrote:
i disagree, if oov had a more heavy schedule he would've had LESS dominance, not more. more games = less time to prepare for the dominant player.
cool thread you got goin hotbid
but you are totally wrong here
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EPT
