EPTRegardless, this strat is still under hot debate. But its risky to invest gas for 1 ensare when 1 irradiate could kill it. Assuming both players playing ZvT as strongest MU with same skills, Ultraling-swarm would work better.U know ultra-ling-swarm-ensnare is not possible at the same time, unless Z player have the advantage in the game.
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Baddieko
Singapore855 Posts
Regardless, this strat is still under hot debate. But its risky to invest gas for 1 ensare when 1 irradiate could kill it. Assuming both players playing ZvT as strongest MU with same skills, Ultraling-swarm would work better.U know ultra-ling-swarm-ensnare is not possible at the same time, unless Z player have the advantage in the game. | ||
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Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On December 26 2008 02:55 Plexa wrote: Jaedong is a trend follower, not a trend setter. Track his ZvP games and you'll notice he's playing the EXACT SAME SHIT as everyone else is doing. And there is no evidence of Jaedong doing any of these builds before other people hence why we arrive at the conclusion that Jaedong follows what's popular. This queen shit is the first sign of him actually doing something productive for the zerg race for once. Like so often, I think Plexa is right on the money. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On December 26 2008 02:55 Plexa wrote: Jaedong is a trend follower, not a trend setter. Track his ZvP games and you'll notice he's playing the EXACT SAME SHIT as everyone else is doing. And there is no evidence of Jaedong doing any of these builds before other people hence why we arrive at the conclusion that Jaedong follows what's popular. This queen shit is the first sign of him actually doing something productive for the zerg race for once. Good post(s). I overestimated Jaedong's revolutionizing skills. Thanks for actually providing the games too. If 815 was the one who created the standard ZvP then KUDOS to him. Oh and you can also argue that the Queen shit is not actually Jaedong's one original idea and that Hyvaa used it against flash and that Jaedong once again is just following everyone else. I haven't seen that game though, and I don't know what sort of BO Hyvaa used so I can't really say. I have read that JD used defilers AND queens though, but Hyvaa did not. If I can pose a question too, what exactly makes a revolutionist anyway? I don't know my protoss history and by all means correct me if I'm wrong but the Bisu build was also invented already by Nal_Ra, yet Bisu is considered the one who revolutionized it. Does this mean he just popularized it, it's falsely attributed to him, or is it that Bisu really DID create it and the post I read was ill informed? | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 26 2008 04:50 Warrior Madness wrote: Revolutionist is just someone who manages to fundamentally change a matchup throguh some innovation. Daezang invented the bisu build on blitz, because its sooooo strong there, but he didn't revolutionize the matchup; he just won some games. Bisu revolutionized it by truly utilizing the build to its fullest potential on non-blitz (and blitz) maps. As a result, he fundamentally changed the way pvz would be played. Savior is another example with his 3hatch defiler/hive play.Good post(s). I overestimated Jaedong's revolutionizing skills. Thanks for actually providing the games too. If 815 was the one who created the standard ZvP then KUDOS to him. Oh and you can also argue that the Queen shit is not actually Jaedong's one original idea and that Hyvaa used it against flash and that Jaedong once again is just following everyone else. I haven't seen that game though, and I don't know what sort of BO Hyvaa used so I can't really say. I have read that JD used defilers AND queens though, but Hyvaa did not. If I can pose a question too, what exactly makes a revolutionist anyway? I don't know my protoss history and by all means correct me if I'm wrong but the Bisu build was also invented already by Nal_Ra, yet Bisu is considered the one who revolutionized it. Does this mean he just popularized it, it's falsely attributed to him, or is it that Bisu really DID create it and the post I read was ill informed? EDIT: LOL all the people supporting what i said are khan fans, i wonder why? Nal_ra didn't invent sair/reaver, but he popularized it on non-island maps. On top of that Nal_ra also irevolutionized the 14nex by using on R-Point; everyone thought he was mad but he won. Nal_Ra has done like x10 the shit bisu has done for protoss  But! he didn't invent the bisu build afaik. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Jaedong didn't invent 5 hat play, I didn't say that, He invented a systematic timming which was more or less safe against ALL FE protoss openings. He actually set this trend and the exact timmings. He didn't not invent the whole macro concept, but he more or less found a safe way of playing for zerg to get aprox 35 drones and have 5 hats,spire,den,carpace going, ling speed and an early 4th, without any major timing windows problems. His play against harrassment style has been adopted by everbody plexa. Savior was the most resistant to modern zvp play, he would go 3 hat spire -> scourge and then overexpand or overdrone or over ling nearly everygame against 'bisu ' timing windows and fail to establish a good eco along the way, watch his approach vs bisu on katrina, it revolved around hyper aggressive low eco drone play or pure hydra breaks, he never fully utilized his larva/hats, which he couldn't because of the timing issues of sair/dt ect. Did other zergs already have the right idea ... yes, but then again sair/reaver off forge FE isn't anything new either, infact like I said earlier | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
He's like the camera in horror movies that runs behind the screaming white girl. | ||
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 26 2008 06:39 AttackZerg wrote: Oh so you're talking about the 4hatch hydra->lair thing? It's the same deal there are instances of Zerg players using this build well before Jaedong. And yes, he did use this build almost exclusively from E07 -> E08; as did every other Zerg. The things he was doing was nothing new, and had didn't revolutionize anything. The only thing special about Jaedong is that he has 400+apm and multitasks/macros/micros at a level beyond most other players. Thats why he won games, it had nothing to do with revolutionizing anything. Jaedong used a 4 hat hydra with Hydraspeed-Ovie speed -> no range -> lurker in many of his zvp games. Jaedong didn't invent 5 hat play, I didn't say that, He invented a systematic timming which was more or less safe against ALL FE protoss openings. He actually set this trend and the exact timmings. He didn't not invent the whole macro concept, but he more or less found a safe way of playing for zerg to get aprox 35 drones and have 5 hats,spire,den,carpace going, ling speed and an early 4th, without any major timing windows problems. His play against harrassment style has been adopted by everbody plexa. Savior was the most resistant to modern zvp play, he would go 3 hat spire -> scourge and then overexpand or overdrone or over ling nearly everygame against 'bisu ' timing windows and fail to establish a good eco along the way, watch his approach vs bisu on katrina, it revolved around hyper aggressive low eco drone play or pure hydra breaks, he never fully utilized his larva/hats, which he couldn't because of the timing issues of sair/dt ect. Cool, I know Savior died miserably. I dont care about Savior, i care about the entire Zerg race and trends within the Zerg race. Savior didn't conform to the norm so meh! Jaedongs "harassment style" is an interesting term  care to explain what that is? I wager that its merely an extension of his mechanics, which in fact, is nothing revolutionary. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28637 Posts
"Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once." 5-6 years ago I said this!! | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28637 Posts
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
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Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On December 26 2008 07:50 Zinbiel wrote: That's true, and I think that you have to give the credit to the guy who popularizes it, because there's really no way to tell who the first one to use a build is, and probably thousands of people have thought of it anyway: theorycraft is easy.This revolutionizizizingz discussion business seems to come down to whether the first one to use it or the one to popularize it gets credit. I mean, come on, there are only a relative handful of abilities in Starcraft, with relatively defined uses. Does anyone think that no one used Queens together with defilers before, or corsairs into dark templars, or hallucinations to get past turrets or whatever? No, you have to give the nod to the one who popularizes something. That's what "revolution" really means anyway: taking it to the masses. crossposted with Jibba | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy. You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year. Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture. EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 26 2008 08:06 Plexa wrote: b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything That's the one that's wrong. Look at ZvP a month before the OSL vs Stork and a month after. How many 9pools were we seeing before then? Look at the timings in ZvT when every other zerg was doing nothing with their mutas. Micro played a part, but he was also hitting them before the massive turret walls went up. The standard sAviOr 3hatch wasn't doing it. | ||
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