That's the one that's wrong. Look at ZvP a month before the OSL vs Stork and a month after. How many 9pools were we seeing before then? Look at the timings in ZvT when every other zerg was doing nothing with their mutas. Micro played a part, but he was also hitting them before the massive turret walls went up. The standard sAviOr 3hatch wasn't doing it.
Quite a few 9 pools actually,
The zerg race in general was evolving itself away from the 12hatch and towards pool first, which gradually became 9pool. This was independent of E07
SaviOr did a lot of 12pool/speed on Blue Storm
Actually, it seems like lots of Zerg did 12pool/speed on Blue
Then GoRush started doing some 9pooling
Other zergs, like GGPlay, experimented with overpooling
And you can see where this is going to lead us Zergs were going 9pool well before ever07 so let's scratch that from Jaedong's popularization list.
For the ZvT one; let's clarify something. You're talking about 2hatch muta right?
Seriously? I thought Bisu lost that game more than Jaedong won it. irrc, he lost a shuttle really early for pretty much nothing. You can call that sick star sense by Jaedong, but it was more Bisu not being careful at all. Perhaps he didn't practice much for the Ace match though Definitely nothing special though.
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
i dont follow pvz too closely so i could be wrong, but wasnt he the one who started the whole mass hydra thing with a muta switch timed to snipe temps?
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
i dont follow pvz too closely so i could be wrong, but wasnt he the one who started the whole mass hydra thing with a muta switch timed to snipe temps?
I think Caster Um is the first to popularize that on StarBrain show. He told Luxury to do it, and ever since then Luxury had a great success. (Lux vs Chalreng) Then everyone started to follow.
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
B is the only one i disagree with. C and d is how he popularized stuff. Because his mechanics and execution is so much better than other zergs so he does the same things but shows how to use them at their true potential.
The influx of zerg users who started using 2 hatch muta started after watching jaedong 2 hatch muta games. Hiding two scourge into your group of mutas to catch the first vessel, zergs have been using the trick but the one who really used it well and who everyone associates with is jaedong.
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
i dont follow pvz too closely so i could be wrong, but wasnt he the one who started the whole mass hydra thing with a muta switch timed to snipe temps?
He developed a 4 hat hydra/ling -> 5 hat muta timing as well that generaly switched into lurker/ling -> defiler + crack drops like vs stork or hydra/lurker drop like vs shuttle.
What jaedong did for the ZvP matchup is counter timing builds, thats it. He systematically produced all of the standard zerg units, in a way that exploited protoss timings or nullified them.
Plexa on a realistic level how well do you understand early-midgame ZvP timing versus standard push.
Jaedong also made standard a fake overpool speed for a faster lair which gets mutas out before sair ZvP.
Do you know from an ingame prespective the timings of all the standard builds. The reason your wrong is because I've watched the timing on every single zerg game zvp for the last year (and select players I've seen ever single one period), I have not missed even one, and until jaedong populared adaptive builds against FE Zerg were not adapting enough thus getting into midgame situations.
You can believe what you like about the matchup but overal your failing to comprehend how important his macro-timing builds ZvP were, which is sad.
His super mechanic way of playing zerg is also a revolution in itself. Effort vs jangbi anybody ..... that game uses the exact ZvP timings that jaedong first employed on katrina , and I say first because the entire ebb and flow of the game follows specific timings and attack schemes.
Plexa zerg isn't like terran or toss where you can develop a play-style that is incredibly different in many facets. Attack Timings, Macro Timings, initial upgrades , exp count(and timing), drone saturation, and unit composition are the things that revolutionize zerg matchups, not some random double queensnest dual ensare/broodling ...
While you say these things, I am yet to see any evidence of Jaedong actually creating any of these timings. The fact is, Zerg builds are constantly being evolved over time. Each game is the zerg player trying to refine it that one step better to be able to get the appropriate timing against whatever race. Jaedong caught one of these good timings and used it near exclusively during his MSL run. How you can call it "his" build when all other zerg players were moving towards the same thing I don't know...
It's not that i dont appreciate the importance of that specific build, I just think you are misguided in believing that Jaedong is solely responsible for its popularity/development.
If you want to call his super mechanic way of playing a revolution, then, uh alright then. But as far as I can see, Jaedong is just doing what every other zerg is doing but cleaner and more efficient. To me thats not revolutionary, thats just playing really well. That's like BeSt; great fundamentals and great execution but no real innovation. BeSt is still a great player, but he's no revolution.
On December 26 2008 17:39 Plexa wrote: While you say these things, I am yet to see any evidence of Jaedong actually creating any of these timings. The fact is, Zerg builds are constantly being evolved over time. Each game is the zerg player trying to refine it that one step better to be able to get the appropriate timing against whatever race. Jaedong caught one of these good timings and used it near exclusively during his MSL run. How you can call it "his" build when all other zerg players were moving towards the same thing I don't know...
It's not that i dont appreciate the importance of that specific build, I just think you are misguided in believing that Jaedong is solely responsible for its popularity/development.
If you want to call his super mechanic way of playing a revolution, then, uh alright then. But as far as I can see, Jaedong is just doing what every other zerg is doing but cleaner and more efficient. To me thats not revolutionary, thats just playing really well. That's like BeSt; great fundamentals and great execution but no real innovation. BeSt is still a great player, but he's no revolution.
I asked you if you understand the timings well enough to appreciate the change he brough, the 5 hat build was just one of them, his 4 hat play as well.
If you say no then I will provide evidence such as, overlord speed timing, mutalisks reaching toss base as templar warp in from gateways timing and alot of the other timings that he used.
I'll rephrase it this way. He was and apparently is the only zerg able to use timming efficiantly enough to render bisus's zerg abuse ... I can' say ineffective but much much less effective.
To explain a recent example from his play. He did his 4 hat hydra/overlordspeed build that he also used against bisu on othello, he built his spire at about the same time as he did with his muta snipe build, it coincidenly is the same attack window that +1 finishes and 1reaver/shuttle moveout. So as the reaver/sair move towards his base 8 scourge pop out, now the shuttle snipe was lucky/skillfull whatever you can call it.
He pushed the limits of zerg timing to the brink which freed up zerg to play much better. Alot of this is by skipping non-essenital upgrades, such as range in his 4 hat hydra -> 5 hat muta play. Until jaedong zergs weren't cutting the correct corners to gain advantages/equality (depends who you ask) against protoss. That is why he exploded and other zergs like luxury/yellow have done horribly against protoss and now finally at least one other zerg is really truely using those same timing windows (read effort).
Just like bisu didn't do anything new he just did it crisper and cleaner and with better timing and multi-task, jaedong did the same thing. I don't understand how you can grasp the difference between nal_ra and bisu but not savior and jaedong. It is more or less the exact same thing.
Jaedong vs Shuttle on othello. This game emphasizes his grasp of the early-midgame timings.
Jaedong vs Much katrina
Jaedong vs stork (fantasy) osl, most crisply timed and safe anti sair-reaver up until that point all resulting from superior early-midgame timing.
I do not think jaedong was a master of ZvP until his bluestorm game against bisu, before then he had wholes in his timing after that it evolved into what it is today that game was when he started playing more or less bullet proof.
Jaedong vs Much/Best/Chalrenge/shuttle shows timing abuse.
Stop looking JUST at jaedong, and look at Zerg race in general. There is evidence to suggest other zergs were at least headed in the same direction.
Difference between Bisu/Nal_ra and Jaedong/Savior Bisu went against the grain with his corsair/dt play, when 5gate zeal was the popular FE variant Jaedong followed convention
On December 26 2008 18:12 Plexa wrote: Stop looking JUST at jaedong, and look at Zerg race in general. There is evidence to suggest other zergs were at least headed in the same direction.
Difference between Bisu/Nal_ra and Jaedong/Savior Bisu went against the grain with his corsair/dt play, when 5gate zeal was the popular FE variant Jaedong followed convention
I am not bringing up other zergs because none of them used the timings windows I am talking about.
Bisu went against the grain with corsair/dt?....
Do you even understand why bisu was a revolutionary... god.... it wasn't a unit combo(although sairs soley yes) which he only used sporadically, it was his entire economic/tech timings and multi-level harrass/aggression that gave toss a basic guide to gaining equality and more against standard zerg play of the time.
Zergs were playing how against bisu at the time?... The best zergs of the last year went all-in against the 'bisu build' or got ran over.
I asked you if you were ignorant as to the signifiance of the earlygame/midgame timings which my entire point has been since the begining and you didn't say 'Yes' and since this arguement couldn't happen if you were more familiar with these timing I give up.
I'll make it simple. Yes plexa your right bisu is good because he makes sairs and dts and jaedong didn't contribue to the most macro based zerg play, that is safe against sair/dt sair/reaver +1timing attacks and timing archon attacks, since the original sauron zergs.
people whining about enthusiastic JaeDong fans seem not to get the point here: the fans dont love him for being inventor of his strats, they love him for delivering prove for theorycraft strategies which are often discarded as 'then why did no korean progamer use it yet? so it has to be not effective.' i just love it that he has the skills to proove otherwise underestimated well-thought strategies viable. that Hyvaa could not, and we all know its just because he was overwhelmed by the situation demanding additional multitasking so that his flanks failed...
so i praise jaedong not for inventing clever strategies but FOR MAKING THEM WORK! and that IS important in scbw progaming
On December 26 2008 18:12 Plexa wrote: Stop looking JUST at jaedong, and look at Zerg race in general. There is evidence to suggest other zergs were at least headed in the same direction.
Difference between Bisu/Nal_ra and Jaedong/Savior Bisu went against the grain with his corsair/dt play, when 5gate zeal was the popular FE variant Jaedong followed convention
I am not bringing up other zergs because none of them used the timings windows I am talking about.
Bisu went against the grain with corsair/dt?....
Do you even understand why bisu was a revolutionary... god.... it wasn't a unit combo(although sairs soley yes) which he only used sporadically, it was his entire economic/tech timings and multi-level harrass/aggression that gave toss a basic guide to gaining equality and more against standard zerg play of the time.
Zergs were playing how against bisu at the time?... The best zergs of the last year went all-in against the 'bisu build' or got ran over.
I asked you if you were ignorant as to the signifiance of the earlygame/midgame timings which my entire point has been since the begining and you didn't say 'Yes' and since this arguement couldn't happen if you were more familiar with these timing I give up.
I'll make it simple. Yes plexa your right bisu is good because he makes sairs and dts and jaedong didn't contribue to the most macro based zerg play, that is safe against sair/dt sair/reaver +1timing attacks and timing archon attacks, since the original sauron zergs.
I'm betting we're missing each others points =/ I know exactly why bisu was a PvZ god, and yes what you said about him is 100% right. Bisu's approach to PvZ was unique and set him apart. With that said, "his" build which he popularized was a huge part of him being a revolution for PvZ. The same applies to Jaedong, without the "revolutionary" build. Being a god at a matchup doesn't make you a revolutionary, it just makes you a god. Stork is a PvP god; but still not revolutionary in the matchup.
I wager that our definition of revolutionary differs hence why we're disagreeing on the points.
being a god at a mu inevitably means a lot of small deviations, this is what's influential - protoss don't used to ever archon meld in battle, or use the scouting probe to delay the natural hatch, or used pylon to draw a-move fire, or a number of other stuff
it's not really one big revolution, those haven't existed since the pioneer days. instead all these so-called revolutions are, and arguably they must, be built on top of already known concepts, only with a different and much improved set of thinking, timing, and controls to them.
they are rightfully called revolutionary cus they work in the present, reversed the standards, not cus they never existed.
and jaedong's forced terrans to adapt to his style and timing, he was influential for a long time. as for revolutionary... honestly I think it's all just semantics.
also jaedong showed zerg how to defeat sair/reaver with his maphack-ling and hydra burrows. you can call that reversing bisu's revolution. recently he even developed a queen/defiler strategy vT. I mean, god now that I've started the list it's clear he's got a ton of innovations. Add them all up makes him revolutionary.
On December 26 2008 18:12 Plexa wrote: Stop looking JUST at jaedong, and look at Zerg race in general. There is evidence to suggest other zergs were at least headed in the same direction.
Difference between Bisu/Nal_ra and Jaedong/Savior Bisu went against the grain with his corsair/dt play, when 5gate zeal was the popular FE variant Jaedong followed convention
I am not bringing up other zergs because none of them used the timings windows I am talking about.
Bisu went against the grain with corsair/dt?....
Do you even understand why bisu was a revolutionary... god.... it wasn't a unit combo(although sairs soley yes) which he only used sporadically, it was his entire economic/tech timings and multi-level harrass/aggression that gave toss a basic guide to gaining equality and more against standard zerg play of the time.
Zergs were playing how against bisu at the time?... The best zergs of the last year went all-in against the 'bisu build' or got ran over.
I asked you if you were ignorant as to the signifiance of the earlygame/midgame timings which my entire point has been since the begining and you didn't say 'Yes' and since this arguement couldn't happen if you were more familiar with these timing I give up.
I'll make it simple. Yes plexa your right bisu is good because he makes sairs and dts and jaedong didn't contribue to the most macro based zerg play, that is safe against sair/dt sair/reaver +1timing attacks and timing archon attacks, since the original sauron zergs.
I'm betting we're missing each others points =/ I know exactly why bisu was a PvZ god, and yes what you said about him is 100% right. Bisu's approach to PvZ was unique and set him apart. With that said, "his" build which he popularized was a huge part of him being a revolution for PvZ. The same applies to Jaedong, without the "revolutionary" build. Being a god at a matchup doesn't make you a revolutionary, it just makes you a god. Stork is a PvP god; but still not revolutionary in the matchup.
I wager that our definition of revolutionary differs hence why we're disagreeing on the points.
Plexa I think you pretty much have the same defintion of revolutionary as Attackzerg's.
Revolutionist is just someone who manages to fundamentally change a matchup throguh some innovation. Daezang invented the bisu build on blitz, because its sooooo strong there, but he didn't revolutionize the matchup; he just won some games. Bisu revolutionized it by truly utilizing the build to its fullest potential on non-blitz (and blitz) maps. As a result, he fundamentally changed the way pvz would be played. Savior is another example with his 3hatch defiler/hive play.
So even if Bisu DID NOT invent the Bisu build he is still considered revolutionary. He fine tuned the timing, added in multiprong harass and popularized the build which protoss players followed. This change had a lasting and large-scale impact on the metagame. So even if Jaedong didn't invent the timing/BO then by your definition he could still revolutionize standard play by tweaking the timing/popularizing it so that every other zerg follows.
Attackzerg's argument from my understanding is: Figuring out the specific counter timing in ZvP midgame has been the most effective development in countering the Bisu build/FE. The earlygame/midgame timing has changed the ZvP metagame as much as the Bisu build has changed the PvZ metagame. It's that important of a development. Jaedong is the one who figured out these timings and he's the one who popularized it. So Jaedong can be considered revolutionary.
The only point I see you disputing Plexa is "Jaedong is the one who figured out these timings and he's the one who popularized it."
It seems we reach a point where people playing really well labels them as revolutionary. While it is hard to exactly define revolutionary, I think it should be pretty clear that refining and developing BOs is not it. Bisu's sair/dt was a revolution, but the revolution does not reoccur every time someone streamline the build, or fits it into new maps.
To me, a revolution is where you have a new concept, different from what was previously seen, and a BO that can make it work. A standard build that incorporate queens, that can be worked out on most maps can be seen as revolutionary. Changing the timing of existing popular builds to make them more efficient is not.
The zeal-archon build that have been somewhat popular lately is not a revolution, even if the timings used now are different from the earlier iterations.
Going from walking to a bike with 3 wheels is a revolution, going from a bike with 3 wheels to a bike with 2 is NOT.
On December 26 2008 21:43 Fwmeh wrote: It seems we reach a point where people playing really well labels them as revolutionary. While it is hard to exactly define revolutionary, I think it should be pretty clear that refining and developing BOs is not it. Bisu's sair/dt was a revolution, but the revolution does not reoccur every time someone streamline the build, or fits it into new maps.
To me, a revolution is where you have a new concept, different from what was previously seen, and a BO that can make it work. A standard build that incorporate queens, that can be worked out on most maps can be seen as revolutionary. Changing the timing of existing popular builds to make them more efficient is not.
The zeal-archon build that have been somewhat popular lately is not a revolution, even if the timings used now are different from the earlier iterations.
Going from walking to a bike with 3 wheels is a revolution, going from a bike with 3 wheels to a bike with 2 is NOT.
That definition is way too dependent on circumstances, considering bisu's revolution was itself just a counter build to savior's style, and it just so happens that style was widespread cus savior was THE ZERG.
If that's the case bisu's revolution ended with jaedong's counter to his sair/reaver/dt. But jaedong's not called revolutionary cus Bisu's not as dominant as Savior. So now PvZ is once again the product of current protoss players at large, and not just 1 particular P. In that case Bisu shouldn't be called revolutionist any more, as he's just good at the MU now.
It's all a matter of perspective.
Essentially to be revolutionary by your definition is impossible today cus there's no bonjwa, no one to standardize a single dominant style of play that everyone else can emulate. No single standard results in no revolutionary counter.
EPT
Zergs were going 9pool well before ever07 so let's scratch that from Jaedong's popularization list.
