I'm usually the guy who tells people to not be pussies and look at the results first. Don't do it this time - DON'T LOOK DOWN IF YOU'RE NOT UP TO DATE. There's to be no crying in my ears if you do!!
Okay, finally saw Jaedong's 2fer last night. I expected good games but I didn't think they'd be this good. These are no doubt the kind of games you get once every so often... But twice in one night, hoho, I can only imagine the ménage-à-trois-ness of having watched live
Anyway, is anybody gonna translate the new JD interview? The interview covers all the burning questions / dispels a TON of crackpiping from the spoiler thread.
Post here if you're on it. I don't want anybody to waste time if more than one guy happens to be doing it. That includes me. It's a very informative interview and a good sign for the future of zerg
-Edit: Interview translated in 2 parts, find them below, big help from RamenStyle.
Jaedong: With proper queen usage, Zerg shall be even stronger
Q: Your ensnare-darkswarm use today was awesome. JD: I had tried it before a lot of times, both in practice and tv games, but this time I wanted to come up with a build where I would be able to use this effectively. Lately, I haven't been doing that well against terran, and I was worried about it. I thought that if I played like I always do, I'll be beat, so I was struggling to come up with some innovative build when the coach suggested queen use, especially since the map(SCPR) was kinda fit for it.
Q: Why do you think this hasn't been effective before? JD: I think the reason that kind of strategy didn't work is because queens were only used for showoff, in a way that didn't really matter if it worked or not. If it worked, good, if not, well, big deal.
Q: Were you thinking about using the queen if Fantasy would've come up with mechanic? JD: If he went mechanic, I would have opted for another strategy. But he went bionic, so I was able to show it.
Q: Will you keep using this queen/defiler combo in the future? It's hard to say, because there are already units like defiles that take a lot of attention and micro, and adding a queen to the equation, you might have too much on your plate and could lose focus and throw the game. However, if the timing is good, the use of a queen could tip the balance to your side.
Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once.
Q: Where you trying to infest the nat cc? Well, the opponent wasn't lifting his cc, so I was going to infest it but my timing was one step behind and it got destroyed. Anyways, my queen wasn't initially at that spot to infest the cc.
Q: How did it go during practice? During practice, terrans told me it was really annoying. Even knowing about it, it was troublesome to deal with, so that gave me confidence.
Q: Did you expect to face Bisu in the ace set? JD: I figured that it would be one of the protoss players. BeSt took out ZerO on Destination in a recent ace match. But I didn't think it'd be Bisu.
Q: Did you think he'd DT harass? JD: I was 100% sure he would. But I wasn't able to defend against it perfectly. Between the maynards and the hydras pacing back-n-forth, I'd accumulated a disadvantage. So to recoup my loss I attacked the 10 o'clock expo.
Q: Your HT-sniping was excellent JD: At that point in the game I knew the templars each had 2 storms, so I sent in mutas. Though I lost them all, it was well worth it.
Q: At what point during the game you knew you had won? After I killed all the HT, our armies clashed in the middle of the map. I knew the game was mine after I wiped out all of the dragoons.
And the rest is pretty standard. When asked how he feels about the 6 dragons, he says that with confidence and a strict focus on the game and not the player, he's sure to win. When asked how he feel being 1 win away from the top of the "most win in PL" ranking, he says there's not much to think about, and that it's constantly being updated so he's able to catch up whenever.
Oh and JaeDong wants everyone to bask in the festival atmosphere of Christmas and have an exciting new year. In the meantime he'll be practicing hard for his MSL survivor group come Jan 1st.
I must say that I enjoyed the queen/defiler combo, but the game vs bisu was JUST. SO. DAMN. GOOD. Bisu pulled out every vZ trick, every single one that helped take him to the top - sair reaver, sair dt, drop harass, rolling army with mass-unit-killing HT/reaver combo... And the ending was so so gnarly, I don't think I've ever seen this many toss units explode in unison, like christmas fireworks.
Ok, I'm feeling too lazy to translate it all, but for the xmas spirit, I'll focus in what he said overall the queen ensnare thing.
Q: Your ensnare-darkswarm use today was awesome. JD: I had tried it before a lot of times, both in practice and tv games, but this time I wanted to come up with a build where I would be able to use this effectively. Lately, I haven't been doing that well against terran, and I was worried about it. I thought that if I played like I always do, I'll be beat, so I was struggling to come up with some innovative build when the coach suggested queen use, especially since the map(SCPR) was kinda fit for it.
Q: Why do you think this hasn't been effective before? JD: I think the reason that kind of strategy didn't work is because queens were only used for showoff, in a way that didn't really matter if it worked or not. If it worked, good, if not, well, big deal.
Q: Were you thinking about using the queen if Fantasy would've come up with mechanic? JD: If he went mechanic, I would have opted for another strategy. But he went bionic, so I was able to show it.
Q: Will you keep using this queen/defiler combo in the future? It's hard to say, because there are already units like defiles that take a lot of attention and micro, and adding a queen to the equation, you might have too much on your plate and could lose focus and throw the game. However, if the timing is good, the use of a queen could tip the balance to your side.
Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once.
Q: Where you trying to infest the nat cc? Well, the opponent wasn't lifting his cc, so I was going to infest it but my timing was one step behind and it got destroyed. Anyways, my queen wasn't initially at that spot to infest the cc.
Q: How did it go during practice? During practice, terrans told me it was really annoying. Even knowing about it, it was troublesome to deal with, so that gave me confidence.
That's the part about the queen usage. There is no much more left of the interview, but I just need to get a nap. I'm sure someone else will complete it for you guys. Anyways, I'm guessing the part everyone was looking for was about the queen ensnare, so merry xmas!
EDIT: Fixed typo. Thanks to Zortch for spotting it.
Yes!!! The Jaedong build, it's official folks! How effective and useful it will be in the long run, we will see. The two hatch muta got countered quite quickly.
God I'm excited. I mean, I don't think there is a zerg player on this board who hasn't theory wanked Queen usage. It has taken so long but it's here. I'm equally happy that it would be JAEDONG, out of everyone else, who will lead the way. (Well actually, didn't Chojja use queens a lot?)
I'm happy with Jaedong's newest, latest role as the zerg revolutionist (Though he really has been doing so for the last year). It looks like he's been working really hard to try and innovate, and he's not gonna stop any time soon.
It could become a staple in Zerg play as long as the Zerg users are not stubborn to learn. The good thing about queens is that they are along the tech tree and work quite well with pure lurkling and especially lurkling defiler.
And you don't have to use them all the time, just use them when you feel comfortable before the crazy macro game starts.
Thanks for the translation! ^^ I hope the queen gets more use. Another unit could open up new strategies all over the place.
Found a tiny typo btw
On December 24 2008 22:48 RamenStyle wrote: Q: Where you thinking about using the queen if Fantasy would've come up with mechanic? JD: If he went mechanic, I would have opted for another strategy. But he went bionic, so I was able to show it.
That first where should be were i assume. No big deal of course just thuoght I'd mention it.
Jaedong: With proper queen usage, Zerg shall be even stronger
Q: Did you expect to face Bisu in the ace set? JD: I figured that it would be one of the protoss players. BeSt took out ZerO on Destination in a recent ace match. But I didn't think it'd be Bisu.
Q: Did you think he'd DT harass? JD: I was 100% sure he would. But I wasn't able to defend against it perfectly. Between the maynards and the hydras pacing back-n-forth, I'd accumulated a disadvantage. So to recoup my loss I attacked the 10 o'clock expo.
Q: Your HT-sniping was excellent JD: At that point in the game I knew the templars each had 2 storms, so I sent in mutas. Though I lost them all, it was well worth it.
Q: At what point during the game you knew you had won? After I killed all the HT, our armies clashed in the middle of the map. I knew the game was mine after I wiped out all of the dragoons.
And the rest is pretty standard. When asked how he feels about the 6 dragons, he says that with confidence and a strict focus on the game and not the player, he's sure to win. When asked how he feel being 1 win away from the top of the "most win in PL" ranking, he says there's not much to think about, and that it's constantly being updated so he's able to catch up whenever.
Oh and JaeDong wants everyone to bask in the festival atmosphere of Christmas and have an exciting new year. In the meantime he'll be practicing hard for his MSL survivor group come Jan 1st.
@ Gearitup why would you use scouts? Use sairs for anti-air, use reavers for harass, scouts do no damage and cost a shitload. You could get a shuttle and a templar for that same price! I wouldn't touch the S button except for the humiliation factor.
As for queens, now high-APM zerg will be rewarded with parasiting and broodling against all races - imagine parasiting an enemy observer and spying on the protoss army, and spawning broodlings on templar! Now to find a way to push back that +1 archon/zealot push, hehehe ...
Ensnare also seems to be a great spell to slow down enemy armies for flanks; almost seems like WC3-level micro, except on a large scale against large armies. I have to admit, good PvZs are beautiful to watch, especially when the zerg rolls over the protoss.
Hm if they parasited my observer I would probably trash it... Whereas you cant trash a science vessel as easily they are too expensive, (I hope everyone saw him parasite a vessel)
On December 24 2008 22:48 RamenStyle wrote: Q: Will you keep using this queen/defiler combo in the future? It's hard to say, because there are already units like defiles that take a lot of attention and micro, and adding a queen to the equation, you might have too much on your plate and could lose focus and throw the game. However, if the timing is good, the use of a queen could tip the balance to your side.
Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once.
I'll quote this for all players thinking that "progamers can do everything" (e.g. Idra who in some thread asked me for an example when I said that SC requires too much multitasking even for progamers - of course anything I would have said would have been ignored, but now here you have one answer, from the best Z in the world).
Pros can't do everything, in games which take longer than 15 minutes their attention begins to falter and while they're still quite amazing compared to us trashy players, they're still far from perfect so that using 2 micro intensive spellcasters in late game can be a very tough thing to do, and now there's the question if this is really a good thing that it is that hard to do... if the best Z in the world has trouble doing it because of the insane multitasking requirements, all other players can probably just forget about it completely, and that's a shame... because it's an interesting unit which is underused only because of multitasking being too hard.
Queens have their uses, that's for sure. Although not as powerful as defilers their mobility counts for a lot.
I like to broodling templars instead of using a control group of mutas. Personally it seems more cost effective and it isn't much more in the way of micro.. I wonder if JD will ever try that out.
On December 24 2008 22:48 RamenStyle wrote: Q: Will you keep using this queen/defiler combo in the future? It's hard to say, because there are already units like defiles that take a lot of attention and micro, and adding a queen to the equation, you might have too much on your plate and could lose focus and throw the game. However, if the timing is good, the use of a queen could tip the balance to your side.
Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once.
I'll quote this for all players thinking that "progamers can do everything" (e.g. Idra who in some thread asked me for an example when I said that SC requires too much multitasking even for progamers - of course anything I would have said would have been ignored, but now here you have one answer, from the best Z in the world).
Pros can't do everything, in games which take longer than 15 minutes their attention begins to falter and while they're still quite amazing compared to us trashy players, they're still far from perfect so that using 2 micro intensive spellcasters in late game can be a very tough thing to do, and now there's the question if this is really a good thing that it is that hard to do... if the best Z in the world has trouble doing it because of the insane multitasking requirements, all other players can probably just forget about it completely, and that's a shame... because it's an interesting unit which is underused only because of multitasking being too hard.
yeah, and thats a good thing, JaeDong talks about improving even more, this is true competition, improving with no limits, over the human condition. Imagine if he wasnt talking about improving but about a limit, things are good the way they are
On December 25 2008 00:08 .risingdragoon wrote: Nice job Ramen. I'll finish off the 2nd half.
Jaedong: With proper queen usage, Zerg shall be even stronger
Q: Did you expect to face Bisu in the ace set? JD: I figured that it would be one of the protoss players. BeSt took out ZerO on Destination in a recent ace match. But I didn't think it'd be Bisu.
Q: Did you think he'd DT harass? JD: I was 100% sure he would. But I wasn't able to defend against it perfectly. Between the maynards and the hydras pacing back-n-forth, I'd accumulated a disadvantage. So to recoup my loss I attacked the 10 o'clock expo.
Q: Your HT-sniping was excellent JD: At that point in the game I knew the templars each had 2 storms, so I sent in mutas. Though I lost them all, it was well worth it.
Q: At what point during the game you knew you had won? After I killed all the HT, our armies clashed in the middle of the map. I knew the game was mine after I wiped out all of the dragoons.
And the rest is pretty standard. When asked how he feels about the 6 dragons, he says that with confidence and a strict focus on the game and not the player, he's sure to win. When asked how he feel being 1 win away from the top of the "most win in PL" ranking, he says there's not much to think about, and that it's constantly being updated so he's able to catch up whenever.
Oh and JaeDong wants everyone to bask in the festival atmosphere of Christmas and have an exciting new year. In the meantime he'll be practicing hard for his MSL survivor group come Jan 1st.
jesus that's a lot of deep thinking. How many of us are thinking 'hmm, his templars have 2 storms'? WTF.
On December 24 2008 22:48 RamenStyle wrote: Q: Will you keep using this queen/defiler combo in the future? It's hard to say, because there are already units like defiles that take a lot of attention and micro, and adding a queen to the equation, you might have too much on your plate and could lose focus and throw the game. However, if the timing is good, the use of a queen could tip the balance to your side.
Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once.
I'll quote this for all players thinking that "progamers can do everything" (e.g. Idra who in some thread asked me for an example when I said that SC requires too much multitasking even for progamers - of course anything I would have said would have been ignored, but now here you have one answer, from the best Z in the world).
Pros can't do everything, in games which take longer than 15 minutes their attention begins to falter and while they're still quite amazing compared to us trashy players, they're still far from perfect so that using 2 micro intensive spellcasters in late game can be a very tough thing to do, and now there's the question if this is really a good thing that it is that hard to do... if the best Z in the world has trouble doing it because of the insane multitasking requirements, all other players can probably just forget about it completely, and that's a shame... because it's an interesting unit which is underused only because of multitasking being too hard.
Well, that is not to say it can't be used on lower levels, that is similar to saying that incredible muta harass can't be pulled off by your average gamer, which is perfectly true. However a lessor form of muta harass is still viable and effective.
Just like that, I would say ensnare use by Zergs at all levels would be useful, if pulled off more or less right. When you are a crazy Korean Zerg and you are focusing on so many things, casting plague like a nutjob, microing/macroing setting up flanks simultanously, yeah throwing in a few queens to control will be a pain in the ass, yet possible. So on lower levels we do everything at a lessor level, this would just be another one of those things.
On December 25 2008 00:08 .risingdragoon wrote: Nice job Ramen. I'll finish off the 2nd half.
Jaedong: With proper queen usage, Zerg shall be even stronger
Q: Did you expect to face Bisu in the ace set? JD: I figured that it would be one of the protoss players. BeSt took out ZerO on Destination in a recent ace match. But I didn't think it'd be Bisu.
Q: Did you think he'd DT harass? JD: I was 100% sure he would. But I wasn't able to defend against it perfectly. Between the maynards and the hydras pacing back-n-forth, I'd accumulated a disadvantage. So to recoup my loss I attacked the 10 o'clock expo.
Q: Your HT-sniping was excellent JD: At that point in the game I knew the templars each had 2 storms, so I sent in mutas. Though I lost them all, it was well worth it.
Q: At what point during the game you knew you had won? After I killed all the HT, our armies clashed in the middle of the map. I knew the game was mine after I wiped out all of the dragoons.
And the rest is pretty standard. When asked how he feels about the 6 dragons, he says that with confidence and a strict focus on the game and not the player, he's sure to win. When asked how he feel being 1 win away from the top of the "most win in PL" ranking, he says there's not much to think about, and that it's constantly being updated so he's able to catch up whenever.
Oh and JaeDong wants everyone to bask in the festival atmosphere of Christmas and have an exciting new year. In the meantime he'll be practicing hard for his MSL survivor group come Jan 1st.
jesus that's a lot of deep thinking. How many of us are thinking 'hmm, his templars have 2 storms'? WTF.
Me.
I've lost too many times due to Protoss turtling while massing army and energy. That's why muta sniping is extremely important in ZvP.
If you don't keep the templar count low your shit will explode during battle.
On December 25 2008 02:00 AloneInDaBunker wrote: TL is blessed with quality korean translators. I couldn't have translated this article better than how Ramen translated it. gj
Thx, but we just try to follow up the steps of the guys who bring us all the real quality stuff every week. I'm always thankful for the VODs, articles and follow ups the staff does, so I guess we mere normal posters just try to chip in whenever we can. Credit goes to risingdragoon to.
On topic, I always try to use the "odd" units when I play just for fun(which is always, since I can't play competitively due to how much I suck) and I always wondered why they didn't give more use to the micro-intensive ones. I mean, me I can understand. Pro's who go up to 400 apm, I'm sure they could make the effort and spare 30 apm for some little DA, Queen or Ghost partying.
Just to give an example, when Much played JD on the Arena MSL, he maelstormed JD's mutas. Shame he hadn't any storms left, because he would have been able to kill ALL of them and then the game would have gone in a different direction.
There was a great DA control showoff between Reach and Nal_Ra(I think it was on Paradoxxx, MyCube OSL) exchanging carrier ownership and going all-magic duel.
To a point, I think it could compensate to develop the broodling ability in the queen to snipe out HT. It might require some micro, being careful and taking the right angle so goons don't obliterate your queen before it does the damage, but I believe pro's like JD can make it happen.
As for ghosts, in the past we have seen(was it TheMarine vs Boxer?) ghosts being used as a defensive asset(locking down bc's) rather than showoff for nuking the opponent. More recently, Boxer used it to stop an arbiter from recalling. The ghost lockdown is probably the hardest one to fit, since it is so fragile, and you need to have really precise micro, but if anything, Terran always had a lot of micro intensive freaks(Boxer and Casy on top of them all).
Maybe we are ready to witness one last evolution stage in the game before we have to face SC2 in a couple of years.
Q: Why do you think this hasn't been effective before?
I wanna clarify this point a little bit:
He meant that it didn't work before because it was not incorporated as a part of a specially prepare strategy. And that in the future if the occasion allows / calls for it, he'll use them, again, as a part of a prepared strategy.
Kickass, cus I like the queen/defiler combo a lot.
-ps oh and can moderator edit the thread name slightly?
On December 24 2008 23:08 Warrior Madness wrote: Yes!!! The Jaedong build, it's official folks! How effective and useful it will be in the long run, we will see. The two hatch muta got countered quite quickly.
God I'm excited. I mean, I don't think there is a zerg player on this board who hasn't theory wanked Queen usage. It has taken so long but it's here. I'm equally happy that it would be JAEDONG, out of everyone else, who will lead the way. (Well actually, didn't Chojja use queens a lot?)
I'm happy with Jaedong's newest, latest role as the zerg revolutionist (Though he really has been doing so for the last year). It looks like he's been working really hard to try and innovate, and he's not gonna stop any time soon.
Jaedong wasnt the one to use queens first. Hyvaa was the most recent in memory, but im sure theres been others.
Edit: Lol, Jaedong is not a revolutionist. He's known for doing the same shit that zergs have done since Savior- only better. Thats why Zerg play has not changed dramatically, a race usually follows by good example. Hyvaa used Queens, because im sure all zergs were testing them out, but I doubt it would of become standard because of Hyvaa. Hes a weak zerg. Jaedong used it, and now zergs who were practicing it, will have that much more confidence and will begin to use it.
Really, since Saviors time, no new zvt strategies have formed except two hatch muta, and even that had nothing to do with Jaedong [though he was amazing at it]. Don't pretend hes revolutionized shit when he hasn't- he just plays a big role in forcing new strategies into modern play, because hes "the" zerg.
On December 24 2008 23:08 Warrior Madness wrote: Yes!!! The Jaedong build, it's official folks! How effective and useful it will be in the long run, we will see. The two hatch muta got countered quite quickly.
God I'm excited. I mean, I don't think there is a zerg player on this board who hasn't theory wanked Queen usage. It has taken so long but it's here. I'm equally happy that it would be JAEDONG, out of everyone else, who will lead the way. (Well actually, didn't Chojja use queens a lot?)
I'm happy with Jaedong's newest, latest role as the zerg revolutionist (Though he really has been doing so for the last year). It looks like he's been working really hard to try and innovate, and he's not gonna stop any time soon.
Jaedong wasnt the one to use queens first. Hyvaa was the most recent in memory, but im sure theres been others.
Was already clarified; first to use time a queen/defiler combo effectively.
On December 24 2008 23:08 Warrior Madness wrote: Yes!!! The Jaedong build, it's official folks! How effective and useful it will be in the long run, we will see. The two hatch muta got countered quite quickly.
God I'm excited. I mean, I don't think there is a zerg player on this board who hasn't theory wanked Queen usage. It has taken so long but it's here. I'm equally happy that it would be JAEDONG, out of everyone else, who will lead the way. (Well actually, didn't Chojja use queens a lot?)
I'm happy with Jaedong's newest, latest role as the zerg revolutionist (Though he really has been doing so for the last year). It looks like he's been working really hard to try and innovate, and he's not gonna stop any time soon.
Jaedong wasnt the one to use queens first. Hyvaa was the most recent in memory, but im sure theres been others.
Edit: Lol, Jaedong is not a revolutionist. He's known for doing the same shit that zergs have done since Savior- only better. Thats why Zerg play has not changed dramatically, a race usually follows by good example. Hyvaa used Queens, because im sure all zergs were testing them out, but I doubt it would of become standard because of Hyvaa. Hes a weak zerg. Jaedong used it, and now zergs who were practicing it, will have that much more confidence and will begin to use it.
Really, since Saviors time, no new zvt strategies have formed except two hatch muta, and even that had nothing to do with Jaedong [though he was amazing at it]. Don't pretend hes revolutionized shit when he hasn't- he just plays a big role in forcing new strategies into modern play, because hes "the" zerg.
Dazed_spy, he actually was the first zerg to use 3 hat lair -> 5 hat hat macro timming to get solid economic leverage against protoss FE builds. Putting Sair/Dt into extinction and making sair/reaver much much harder.
His entire systematic approach to ZvP, the timings as phases are all unique. Zerg only has so many mid-game units, his timming for those units and his strategic use of them brought zerg out of a year of brutal rapings. Savior and july were the only zergs still doing good ZvP post bisu error, check the stats, and only because other protoss had much worse timing/multi-task.
Please don't talk as if you understand zerg strategy. Watch savior zvp, any of them, and you won't see 3 hat spire -> scourge to nullify sair play plus scout and then completely adapt from there. Zerg was far less refinned strategically against FE until he refined the macro game.
i remember when oov had mass cloaked wraiths and got his stuff ensnared/raped
kwanro did ok for a while when people werent used to his hyper aggressive style and luxury has been a solid player for awhile now
jaedong is really amazing, its hard to incorporate queens and defilers and get off perfect uses of spells while keeping up the unit production and everything else
Edit: Lol, Jaedong is not a revolutionist. He's known for doing the same shit that zergs have done since Savior- only better. Thats why Zerg play has not changed dramatically, a race usually follows by good example. Hyvaa used Queens, because im sure all zergs were testing them out, but I doubt it would of become standard because of Hyvaa. Hes a weak zerg. Jaedong used it, and now zergs who were practicing it, will have that much more confidence and will begin to use it.
Really, since Saviors time, no new zvt strategies have formed except two hatch muta, and even that had nothing to do with Jaedong [though he was amazing at it]. Don't pretend hes revolutionized shit when he hasn't- he just plays a big role in forcing new strategies into modern play, because hes "the" zerg.
This
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On December 26 2008 00:32 AttackZerg wrote: Dazed_spy, he actually was the first zerg to use 3 hat lair -> 5 hat hat macro timming to get solid economic leverage against protoss FE builds. Putting Sair/Dt into extinction and making sair/reaver much much harder.
His entire systematic approach to ZvP, the timings as phases are all unique. Zerg only has so many mid-game units, his timming for those units and his strategic use of them brought zerg out of a year of brutal rapings. Savior and july were the only zergs still doing good ZvP post bisu error, check the stats, and only because other protoss had much worse timing/multi-task.
Please don't talk as if you understand zerg strategy. Watch savior zvp, any of them, and you won't see 3 hat spire -> scourge to nullify sair play plus scout and then completely adapt from there. Zerg was far less refinned strategically against FE until he refined the macro game.
Get a clue please.
Just watch Savior vs Nal_Ra, Savior vs Bisu, Jaedong vs Stork and then finally, Jaedong vs Bisu on bluestorm. Jaedong at the very least popularized, if not invented, the standard ZvP BO used today. If changing HOW standard ZvP is played is considered NOT revolutionary then I don't know what is.
Is that AS revolutionary as Savior's defiler/hive innovation? I'd say no but it's still a great, lasting innovation that helped ZvP immensely. Anyways, now JD has his eye on Queens and this (though waaaaaayyy premature to say) could change ZvT midgame/SK games for good.
Earlier than Jaedong vs Bisu; 815 vs Best - maybe 815 is the person who revolutionized ZvP!!!!!
Jaedong's next most recent blue storm game;
quite similar to the 5hatch build as it follows the scourge > sair mentality, but that was semi-popular then anyway.
Fact is, by the time jaedong vs bisu rolled around, this was already another viable build in the arsenal of zerg tricks (notably on blue storm due to the two easy expos). I have my doubts that Jaedong employed this build exclusively, or near exclusively following this game - but ill research that up now. I'd be far more inclined to say that yarnc has really revolutionized it by employing essentially exclusively for most of his zvp's this year.
EDIT:
Upon further investigation it seems that Jaedong employed the 4hatch/hydra -> lair as his primary ZvP weapon (from a representative set of ZvP's) occasionally throwing in a 3 base mutalisk build. Revolutionary? Rofl fuck off
EDIT 2:
Is the next closest "major" event that showcased some cousin of the current standard ZvP. The difference here is the lack of the 5th hatch at the right timing. With that said, after 6~ months of this build seeing almost no use; this game is likely to have sparked some zergs to think about using this build more often.
Here's savior using a very similar build in WCG for example
For comparison, here is one of Jaedong's vods from WCG and viola! he's using essentially the same build with a slight change to the hydraden timing.
And heres the first game on destination (around early oct)
Yarnc loses, but the build is there. Jaedong uses this build in the next destination game played
What my research has told me; Jaedong didn't revolutionize anything. It was a gradual evolution from savior until the latter days of blue storm, where precursors to this build existed. However, after that, the other rival variant, the 4hatch/hydreden->lair variation was most popular. July vs Best changed that, and we saw an influx of 3hat -> lair -> spire/den 4th/5thexpo which is quite obviously the immediate ancestor of the 5hat shit. Want to credit someone for a revolution? Credit July. Otherwise be content in knowing that it was a gradual revolution. But dont try to tell me jaedong revolutionized ZvP; because he didn't.
Jaedong fans are really strange. Thay claim that Jaedong revolutionized something in every game he won Quote from Dazed_Spy: "Jaedong is not a revolutionist. He's known for doing the same shit that zergs have done since Savior- only better."
On December 24 2008 23:08 Warrior Madness wrote: Yes!!! The Jaedong build, it's official folks! How effective and useful it will be in the long run, we will see. The two hatch muta got countered quite quickly.
God I'm excited. I mean, I don't think there is a zerg player on this board who hasn't theory wanked Queen usage. It has taken so long but it's here. I'm equally happy that it would be JAEDONG, out of everyone else, who will lead the way. (Well actually, didn't Chojja use queens a lot?)
I'm happy with Jaedong's newest, latest role as the zerg revolutionist (Though he really has been doing so for the last year). It looks like he's been working really hard to try and innovate, and he's not gonna stop any time soon.
Jaedong wasnt the one to use queens first. Hyvaa was the most recent in memory, but im sure theres been others.
Edit: Lol, Jaedong is not a revolutionist. He's known for doing the same shit that zergs have done since Savior- only better. Thats why Zerg play has not changed dramatically, a race usually follows by good example. Hyvaa used Queens, because im sure all zergs were testing them out, but I doubt it would of become standard because of Hyvaa. Hes a weak zerg. Jaedong used it, and now zergs who were practicing it, will have that much more confidence and will begin to use it.
Really, since Saviors time, no new zvt strategies have formed except two hatch muta, and even that had nothing to do with Jaedong [though he was amazing at it]. Don't pretend hes revolutionized shit when he hasn't- he just plays a big role in forcing new strategies into modern play, because hes "the" zerg.
Jaedong was way more aggressive than savior though he's not a revolutionist. Also there are alot of new zergstrategies since saviors time, dont be stupid.
Jaedong is a trend follower, not a trend setter. Track his ZvP games and you'll notice he's playing the EXACT SAME SHIT as everyone else is doing. And there is no evidence of Jaedong doing any of these builds before other people hence why we arrive at the conclusion that Jaedong follows what's popular. This queen shit is the first sign of him actually doing something productive for the zerg race for once.
Z users! Don't be fooled by this recent strat although its viable. U realise he went 2 gas hive-queen-defiler which is a risky strategy. The fact that Fantasy has poor MnM control enable JD to show it. In the OSL semis, Fantasy hid his true weaknesses. He went 1 game MnM against GGplay and i saw it from there. A better TvZ player would break JD's nat using MnM control when he scanned 2 gas hive and less units. Fantasy and JD knows it, he wasn't confident of his MnM micro vs lurkers so he stayed conservative for the whole game.
Regardless, this strat is still under hot debate. But its risky to invest gas for 1 ensare when 1 irradiate could kill it. Assuming both players playing ZvT as strongest MU with same skills, Ultraling-swarm would work better.U know ultra-ling-swarm-ensnare is not possible at the same time, unless Z player have the advantage in the game.
On December 26 2008 02:55 Plexa wrote: Jaedong is a trend follower, not a trend setter. Track his ZvP games and you'll notice he's playing the EXACT SAME SHIT as everyone else is doing. And there is no evidence of Jaedong doing any of these builds before other people hence why we arrive at the conclusion that Jaedong follows what's popular. This queen shit is the first sign of him actually doing something productive for the zerg race for once.
Like so often, I think Plexa is right on the money.
On December 26 2008 02:55 Plexa wrote: Jaedong is a trend follower, not a trend setter. Track his ZvP games and you'll notice he's playing the EXACT SAME SHIT as everyone else is doing. And there is no evidence of Jaedong doing any of these builds before other people hence why we arrive at the conclusion that Jaedong follows what's popular. This queen shit is the first sign of him actually doing something productive for the zerg race for once.
Good post(s). I overestimated Jaedong's revolutionizing skills. Thanks for actually providing the games too. If 815 was the one who created the standard ZvP then KUDOS to him. Oh and you can also argue that the Queen shit is not actually Jaedong's one original idea and that Hyvaa used it against flash and that Jaedong once again is just following everyone else. I haven't seen that game though, and I don't know what sort of BO Hyvaa used so I can't really say. I have read that JD used defilers AND queens though, but Hyvaa did not.
If I can pose a question too, what exactly makes a revolutionist anyway? I don't know my protoss history and by all means correct me if I'm wrong but the Bisu build was also invented already by Nal_Ra, yet Bisu is considered the one who revolutionized it. Does this mean he just popularized it, it's falsely attributed to him, or is it that Bisu really DID create it and the post I read was ill informed?
On December 26 2008 02:55 Plexa wrote: Jaedong is a trend follower, not a trend setter. Track his ZvP games and you'll notice he's playing the EXACT SAME SHIT as everyone else is doing. And there is no evidence of Jaedong doing any of these builds before other people hence why we arrive at the conclusion that Jaedong follows what's popular. This queen shit is the first sign of him actually doing something productive for the zerg race for once.
Good post(s). I overestimated Jaedong's revolutionizing skills. Thanks for actually providing the games too. If 815 was the one who created the standard ZvP then KUDOS to him. Oh and you can also argue that the Queen shit is not actually Jaedong's one original idea and that Hyvaa used it against flash and that Jaedong once again is just following everyone else. I haven't seen that game though, and I don't know what sort of BO Hyvaa used so I can't really say. I have read that JD used defilers AND queens though, but Hyvaa did not.
If I can pose a question too, what exactly makes a revolutionist anyway? I don't know my protoss history and by all means correct me if I'm wrong but the Bisu build was also invented already by Nal_Ra, yet Bisu is considered the one who revolutionized it. Does this mean he just popularized it, it's falsely attributed to him, or is it that Bisu really DID create it and the post I read was ill informed?
Revolutionist is just someone who manages to fundamentally change a matchup throguh some innovation. Daezang invented the bisu build on blitz, because its sooooo strong there, but he didn't revolutionize the matchup; he just won some games. Bisu revolutionized it by truly utilizing the build to its fullest potential on non-blitz (and blitz) maps. As a result, he fundamentally changed the way pvz would be played. Savior is another example with his 3hatch defiler/hive play.
EDIT: LOL all the people supporting what i said are khan fans, i wonder why? Nal_ra didn't invent sair/reaver, but he popularized it on non-island maps. On top of that Nal_ra also irevolutionized the 14nex by using on R-Point; everyone thought he was mad but he won. Nal_Ra has done like x10 the shit bisu has done for protoss But! he didn't invent the bisu build afaik.
Jaedong used a 4 hat hydra with Hydraspeed-Ovie speed -> no range -> lurker in many of his zvp games.
Jaedong didn't invent 5 hat play, I didn't say that, He invented a systematic timming which was more or less safe against ALL FE protoss openings.
He actually set this trend and the exact timmings. He didn't not invent the whole macro concept, but he more or less found a safe way of playing for zerg to get aprox 35 drones and have 5 hats,spire,den,carpace going, ling speed and an early 4th, without any major timing windows problems.
His play against harrassment style has been adopted by everbody plexa. Savior was the most resistant to modern zvp play, he would go 3 hat spire -> scourge and then overexpand or overdrone or over ling nearly everygame against 'bisu ' timing windows and fail to establish a good eco along the way, watch his approach vs bisu on katrina, it revolved around hyper aggressive low eco drone play or pure hydra breaks, he never fully utilized his larva/hats, which he couldn't because of the timing issues of sair/dt ect.
Did other zergs already have the right idea ... yes, but then again sair/reaver off forge FE isn't anything new either, infact like I said earlier
Regardless of who invented what strategy. Jeadong in "the zone" is still scary as fuck. One of the very few players that make me feel like i'm watching a bulldozer.
He's like the camera in horror movies that runs behind the screaming white girl.
Jaedong might not be a zerg revolutionist, but his excellent mechanics and game sense allows him to execute those zerg builds first innovated by the likes of Lux/Yarnc/Savior better any other zergs out there. Other zerg players often uses him as a benchmark to determine whether a certain build was viable, and it could probably explain why most zergs slumped at the same time when Jaedong did. More players like Effort and Magma are needed, right now too many zergs seem to be in Jaedong's shadow all the time.
On December 26 2008 06:39 AttackZerg wrote: Jaedong used a 4 hat hydra with Hydraspeed-Ovie speed -> no range -> lurker in many of his zvp games.
Jaedong didn't invent 5 hat play, I didn't say that, He invented a systematic timming which was more or less safe against ALL FE protoss openings.
He actually set this trend and the exact timmings. He didn't not invent the whole macro concept, but he more or less found a safe way of playing for zerg to get aprox 35 drones and have 5 hats,spire,den,carpace going, ling speed and an early 4th, without any major timing windows problems.
Oh so you're talking about the 4hatch hydra->lair thing? It's the same deal there are instances of Zerg players using this build well before Jaedong. And yes, he did use this build almost exclusively from E07 -> E08; as did every other Zerg. The things he was doing was nothing new, and had didn't revolutionize anything. The only thing special about Jaedong is that he has 400+apm and multitasks/macros/micros at a level beyond most other players. Thats why he won games, it had nothing to do with revolutionizing anything.
His play against harrassment style has been adopted by everbody plexa. Savior was the most resistant to modern zvp play, he would go 3 hat spire -> scourge and then overexpand or overdrone or over ling nearly everygame against 'bisu ' timing windows and fail to establish a good eco along the way, watch his approach vs bisu on katrina, it revolved around hyper aggressive low eco drone play or pure hydra breaks, he never fully utilized his larva/hats, which he couldn't because of the timing issues of sair/dt ect.
Cool, I know Savior died miserably. I dont care about Savior, i care about the entire Zerg race and trends within the Zerg race. Savior didn't conform to the norm so meh! Jaedongs "harassment style" is an interesting term care to explain what that is? I wager that its merely an extension of his mechanics, which in fact, is nothing revolutionary.
what I loved was "Personally, I will continue to use it a lot in the future. I practiced really hard, and still it was tough. It's hard to get used to having another unit to pay attention to, but if you get used to it, it might let [zerg] evolve one step further. Of course it takes a lot of micro, but if other zergs try hard enough, I think they can use it too. They should stop trying to go the safe/comfortable way, and instead try this at least once."
This revolutionizizizingz discussion business seems to come down to whether the first one to use it or the one to popularize it gets credit. Hopefully Backho will not popularize offensive zizi yO for protoss.
You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
On December 26 2008 07:50 Zinbiel wrote: This revolutionizizizingz discussion business seems to come down to whether the first one to use it or the one to popularize it gets credit.
That's true, and I think that you have to give the credit to the guy who popularizes it, because there's really no way to tell who the first one to use a build is, and probably thousands of people have thought of it anyway: theorycraft is easy.
I mean, come on, there are only a relative handful of abilities in Starcraft, with relatively defined uses. Does anyone think that no one used Queens together with defilers before, or corsairs into dark templars, or hallucinations to get past turrets or whatever? No, you have to give the nod to the one who popularizes something. That's what "revolution" really means anyway: taking it to the masses.
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
That's the one that's wrong. Look at ZvP a month before the OSL vs Stork and a month after. How many 9pools were we seeing before then? Look at the timings in ZvT when every other zerg was doing nothing with their mutas. Micro played a part, but he was also hitting them before the massive turret walls went up. The standard sAviOr 3hatch wasn't doing it.
That's the one that's wrong. Look at ZvP a month before the OSL vs Stork and a month after. How many 9pools were we seeing before then? Look at the timings in ZvT when every other zerg was doing nothing with their mutas. Micro played a part, but he was also hitting them before the massive turret walls went up. The standard sAviOr 3hatch wasn't doing it.
Quite a few 9 pools actually,
The zerg race in general was evolving itself away from the 12hatch and towards pool first, which gradually became 9pool. This was independent of E07
SaviOr did a lot of 12pool/speed on Blue Storm
Actually, it seems like lots of Zerg did 12pool/speed on Blue
Then GoRush started doing some 9pooling
Other zergs, like GGPlay, experimented with overpooling
And you can see where this is going to lead us Zergs were going 9pool well before ever07 so let's scratch that from Jaedong's popularization list.
For the ZvT one; let's clarify something. You're talking about 2hatch muta right?
Seriously? I thought Bisu lost that game more than Jaedong won it. irrc, he lost a shuttle really early for pretty much nothing. You can call that sick star sense by Jaedong, but it was more Bisu not being careful at all. Perhaps he didn't practice much for the Ace match though Definitely nothing special though.
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
i dont follow pvz too closely so i could be wrong, but wasnt he the one who started the whole mass hydra thing with a muta switch timed to snipe temps?
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
i dont follow pvz too closely so i could be wrong, but wasnt he the one who started the whole mass hydra thing with a muta switch timed to snipe temps?
I think Caster Um is the first to popularize that on StarBrain show. He told Luxury to do it, and ever since then Luxury had a great success. (Lux vs Chalreng) Then everyone started to follow.
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
B is the only one i disagree with. C and d is how he popularized stuff. Because his mechanics and execution is so much better than other zergs so he does the same things but shows how to use them at their true potential.
The influx of zerg users who started using 2 hatch muta started after watching jaedong 2 hatch muta games. Hiding two scourge into your group of mutas to catch the first vessel, zergs have been using the trick but the one who really used it well and who everyone associates with is jaedong.
On December 26 2008 08:04 Jibba wrote: You guys are nitpicking about something trivial. Regardless of the exact creator of each build order, Jaedong has changed the way all the ZvX matchups are played at the pro level, on both sides. You can go back and find any bo previously used in a pro game, but it doesn't mean anything if the original creator didn't do anything effective with it or make it a standard. Jaedong is the one who has done that for the past year.
Complaining because the Romans didn't invent bureaucracy is missing the big picture.
No, he hasn't. That's the point. He's been doing what ever other Zerg has been doing, playing whatever is trendy.
EDIT: I dont think either of you realize what im talking about =/ a) Jaedong didn't invent anything b) Jaedong didn't popularize anything c) Jaedong plays super fucking well with awesome mechanics d) Jaedong just does what other zergs are doing, but better
i dont follow pvz too closely so i could be wrong, but wasnt he the one who started the whole mass hydra thing with a muta switch timed to snipe temps?
He developed a 4 hat hydra/ling -> 5 hat muta timing as well that generaly switched into lurker/ling -> defiler + crack drops like vs stork or hydra/lurker drop like vs shuttle.
What jaedong did for the ZvP matchup is counter timing builds, thats it. He systematically produced all of the standard zerg units, in a way that exploited protoss timings or nullified them.
Plexa on a realistic level how well do you understand early-midgame ZvP timing versus standard push.
Jaedong also made standard a fake overpool speed for a faster lair which gets mutas out before sair ZvP.
Do you know from an ingame prespective the timings of all the standard builds. The reason your wrong is because I've watched the timing on every single zerg game zvp for the last year (and select players I've seen ever single one period), I have not missed even one, and until jaedong populared adaptive builds against FE Zerg were not adapting enough thus getting into midgame situations.
You can believe what you like about the matchup but overal your failing to comprehend how important his macro-timing builds ZvP were, which is sad.
His super mechanic way of playing zerg is also a revolution in itself. Effort vs jangbi anybody ..... that game uses the exact ZvP timings that jaedong first employed on katrina , and I say first because the entire ebb and flow of the game follows specific timings and attack schemes.
Plexa zerg isn't like terran or toss where you can develop a play-style that is incredibly different in many facets. Attack Timings, Macro Timings, initial upgrades , exp count(and timing), drone saturation, and unit composition are the things that revolutionize zerg matchups, not some random double queensnest dual ensare/broodling ...
While you say these things, I am yet to see any evidence of Jaedong actually creating any of these timings. The fact is, Zerg builds are constantly being evolved over time. Each game is the zerg player trying to refine it that one step better to be able to get the appropriate timing against whatever race. Jaedong caught one of these good timings and used it near exclusively during his MSL run. How you can call it "his" build when all other zerg players were moving towards the same thing I don't know...
It's not that i dont appreciate the importance of that specific build, I just think you are misguided in believing that Jaedong is solely responsible for its popularity/development.
If you want to call his super mechanic way of playing a revolution, then, uh alright then. But as far as I can see, Jaedong is just doing what every other zerg is doing but cleaner and more efficient. To me thats not revolutionary, thats just playing really well. That's like BeSt; great fundamentals and great execution but no real innovation. BeSt is still a great player, but he's no revolution.
On December 26 2008 17:39 Plexa wrote: While you say these things, I am yet to see any evidence of Jaedong actually creating any of these timings. The fact is, Zerg builds are constantly being evolved over time. Each game is the zerg player trying to refine it that one step better to be able to get the appropriate timing against whatever race. Jaedong caught one of these good timings and used it near exclusively during his MSL run. How you can call it "his" build when all other zerg players were moving towards the same thing I don't know...
It's not that i dont appreciate the importance of that specific build, I just think you are misguided in believing that Jaedong is solely responsible for its popularity/development.
If you want to call his super mechanic way of playing a revolution, then, uh alright then. But as far as I can see, Jaedong is just doing what every other zerg is doing but cleaner and more efficient. To me thats not revolutionary, thats just playing really well. That's like BeSt; great fundamentals and great execution but no real innovation. BeSt is still a great player, but he's no revolution.
I asked you if you understand the timings well enough to appreciate the change he brough, the 5 hat build was just one of them, his 4 hat play as well.
If you say no then I will provide evidence such as, overlord speed timing, mutalisks reaching toss base as templar warp in from gateways timing and alot of the other timings that he used.
I'll rephrase it this way. He was and apparently is the only zerg able to use timming efficiantly enough to render bisus's zerg abuse ... I can' say ineffective but much much less effective.
To explain a recent example from his play. He did his 4 hat hydra/overlordspeed build that he also used against bisu on othello, he built his spire at about the same time as he did with his muta snipe build, it coincidenly is the same attack window that +1 finishes and 1reaver/shuttle moveout. So as the reaver/sair move towards his base 8 scourge pop out, now the shuttle snipe was lucky/skillfull whatever you can call it.
He pushed the limits of zerg timing to the brink which freed up zerg to play much better. Alot of this is by skipping non-essenital upgrades, such as range in his 4 hat hydra -> 5 hat muta play. Until jaedong zergs weren't cutting the correct corners to gain advantages/equality (depends who you ask) against protoss. That is why he exploded and other zergs like luxury/yellow have done horribly against protoss and now finally at least one other zerg is really truely using those same timing windows (read effort).
Just like bisu didn't do anything new he just did it crisper and cleaner and with better timing and multi-task, jaedong did the same thing. I don't understand how you can grasp the difference between nal_ra and bisu but not savior and jaedong. It is more or less the exact same thing.
Jaedong vs Shuttle on othello. This game emphasizes his grasp of the early-midgame timings.
Jaedong vs Much katrina
Jaedong vs stork (fantasy) osl, most crisply timed and safe anti sair-reaver up until that point all resulting from superior early-midgame timing.
I do not think jaedong was a master of ZvP until his bluestorm game against bisu, before then he had wholes in his timing after that it evolved into what it is today that game was when he started playing more or less bullet proof.
Jaedong vs Much/Best/Chalrenge/shuttle shows timing abuse.
Stop looking JUST at jaedong, and look at Zerg race in general. There is evidence to suggest other zergs were at least headed in the same direction.
Difference between Bisu/Nal_ra and Jaedong/Savior Bisu went against the grain with his corsair/dt play, when 5gate zeal was the popular FE variant Jaedong followed convention
On December 26 2008 18:12 Plexa wrote: Stop looking JUST at jaedong, and look at Zerg race in general. There is evidence to suggest other zergs were at least headed in the same direction.
Difference between Bisu/Nal_ra and Jaedong/Savior Bisu went against the grain with his corsair/dt play, when 5gate zeal was the popular FE variant Jaedong followed convention
I am not bringing up other zergs because none of them used the timings windows I am talking about.
Bisu went against the grain with corsair/dt?....
Do you even understand why bisu was a revolutionary... god.... it wasn't a unit combo(although sairs soley yes) which he only used sporadically, it was his entire economic/tech timings and multi-level harrass/aggression that gave toss a basic guide to gaining equality and more against standard zerg play of the time.
Zergs were playing how against bisu at the time?... The best zergs of the last year went all-in against the 'bisu build' or got ran over.
I asked you if you were ignorant as to the signifiance of the earlygame/midgame timings which my entire point has been since the begining and you didn't say 'Yes' and since this arguement couldn't happen if you were more familiar with these timing I give up.
I'll make it simple. Yes plexa your right bisu is good because he makes sairs and dts and jaedong didn't contribue to the most macro based zerg play, that is safe against sair/dt sair/reaver +1timing attacks and timing archon attacks, since the original sauron zergs.
people whining about enthusiastic JaeDong fans seem not to get the point here: the fans dont love him for being inventor of his strats, they love him for delivering prove for theorycraft strategies which are often discarded as 'then why did no korean progamer use it yet? so it has to be not effective.' i just love it that he has the skills to proove otherwise underestimated well-thought strategies viable. that Hyvaa could not, and we all know its just because he was overwhelmed by the situation demanding additional multitasking so that his flanks failed...
so i praise jaedong not for inventing clever strategies but FOR MAKING THEM WORK! and that IS important in scbw progaming
On December 26 2008 18:12 Plexa wrote: Stop looking JUST at jaedong, and look at Zerg race in general. There is evidence to suggest other zergs were at least headed in the same direction.
Difference between Bisu/Nal_ra and Jaedong/Savior Bisu went against the grain with his corsair/dt play, when 5gate zeal was the popular FE variant Jaedong followed convention
I am not bringing up other zergs because none of them used the timings windows I am talking about.
Bisu went against the grain with corsair/dt?....
Do you even understand why bisu was a revolutionary... god.... it wasn't a unit combo(although sairs soley yes) which he only used sporadically, it was his entire economic/tech timings and multi-level harrass/aggression that gave toss a basic guide to gaining equality and more against standard zerg play of the time.
Zergs were playing how against bisu at the time?... The best zergs of the last year went all-in against the 'bisu build' or got ran over.
I asked you if you were ignorant as to the signifiance of the earlygame/midgame timings which my entire point has been since the begining and you didn't say 'Yes' and since this arguement couldn't happen if you were more familiar with these timing I give up.
I'll make it simple. Yes plexa your right bisu is good because he makes sairs and dts and jaedong didn't contribue to the most macro based zerg play, that is safe against sair/dt sair/reaver +1timing attacks and timing archon attacks, since the original sauron zergs.
I'm betting we're missing each others points =/ I know exactly why bisu was a PvZ god, and yes what you said about him is 100% right. Bisu's approach to PvZ was unique and set him apart. With that said, "his" build which he popularized was a huge part of him being a revolution for PvZ. The same applies to Jaedong, without the "revolutionary" build. Being a god at a matchup doesn't make you a revolutionary, it just makes you a god. Stork is a PvP god; but still not revolutionary in the matchup.
I wager that our definition of revolutionary differs hence why we're disagreeing on the points.
being a god at a mu inevitably means a lot of small deviations, this is what's influential - protoss don't used to ever archon meld in battle, or use the scouting probe to delay the natural hatch, or used pylon to draw a-move fire, or a number of other stuff
it's not really one big revolution, those haven't existed since the pioneer days. instead all these so-called revolutions are, and arguably they must, be built on top of already known concepts, only with a different and much improved set of thinking, timing, and controls to them.
they are rightfully called revolutionary cus they work in the present, reversed the standards, not cus they never existed.
and jaedong's forced terrans to adapt to his style and timing, he was influential for a long time. as for revolutionary... honestly I think it's all just semantics.
also jaedong showed zerg how to defeat sair/reaver with his maphack-ling and hydra burrows. you can call that reversing bisu's revolution. recently he even developed a queen/defiler strategy vT. I mean, god now that I've started the list it's clear he's got a ton of innovations. Add them all up makes him revolutionary.
On December 26 2008 18:12 Plexa wrote: Stop looking JUST at jaedong, and look at Zerg race in general. There is evidence to suggest other zergs were at least headed in the same direction.
Difference between Bisu/Nal_ra and Jaedong/Savior Bisu went against the grain with his corsair/dt play, when 5gate zeal was the popular FE variant Jaedong followed convention
I am not bringing up other zergs because none of them used the timings windows I am talking about.
Bisu went against the grain with corsair/dt?....
Do you even understand why bisu was a revolutionary... god.... it wasn't a unit combo(although sairs soley yes) which he only used sporadically, it was his entire economic/tech timings and multi-level harrass/aggression that gave toss a basic guide to gaining equality and more against standard zerg play of the time.
Zergs were playing how against bisu at the time?... The best zergs of the last year went all-in against the 'bisu build' or got ran over.
I asked you if you were ignorant as to the signifiance of the earlygame/midgame timings which my entire point has been since the begining and you didn't say 'Yes' and since this arguement couldn't happen if you were more familiar with these timing I give up.
I'll make it simple. Yes plexa your right bisu is good because he makes sairs and dts and jaedong didn't contribue to the most macro based zerg play, that is safe against sair/dt sair/reaver +1timing attacks and timing archon attacks, since the original sauron zergs.
I'm betting we're missing each others points =/ I know exactly why bisu was a PvZ god, and yes what you said about him is 100% right. Bisu's approach to PvZ was unique and set him apart. With that said, "his" build which he popularized was a huge part of him being a revolution for PvZ. The same applies to Jaedong, without the "revolutionary" build. Being a god at a matchup doesn't make you a revolutionary, it just makes you a god. Stork is a PvP god; but still not revolutionary in the matchup.
I wager that our definition of revolutionary differs hence why we're disagreeing on the points.
Plexa I think you pretty much have the same defintion of revolutionary as Attackzerg's.
Revolutionist is just someone who manages to fundamentally change a matchup throguh some innovation. Daezang invented the bisu build on blitz, because its sooooo strong there, but he didn't revolutionize the matchup; he just won some games. Bisu revolutionized it by truly utilizing the build to its fullest potential on non-blitz (and blitz) maps. As a result, he fundamentally changed the way pvz would be played. Savior is another example with his 3hatch defiler/hive play.
So even if Bisu DID NOT invent the Bisu build he is still considered revolutionary. He fine tuned the timing, added in multiprong harass and popularized the build which protoss players followed. This change had a lasting and large-scale impact on the metagame. So even if Jaedong didn't invent the timing/BO then by your definition he could still revolutionize standard play by tweaking the timing/popularizing it so that every other zerg follows.
Attackzerg's argument from my understanding is: Figuring out the specific counter timing in ZvP midgame has been the most effective development in countering the Bisu build/FE. The earlygame/midgame timing has changed the ZvP metagame as much as the Bisu build has changed the PvZ metagame. It's that important of a development. Jaedong is the one who figured out these timings and he's the one who popularized it. So Jaedong can be considered revolutionary.
The only point I see you disputing Plexa is "Jaedong is the one who figured out these timings and he's the one who popularized it."
It seems we reach a point where people playing really well labels them as revolutionary. While it is hard to exactly define revolutionary, I think it should be pretty clear that refining and developing BOs is not it. Bisu's sair/dt was a revolution, but the revolution does not reoccur every time someone streamline the build, or fits it into new maps.
To me, a revolution is where you have a new concept, different from what was previously seen, and a BO that can make it work. A standard build that incorporate queens, that can be worked out on most maps can be seen as revolutionary. Changing the timing of existing popular builds to make them more efficient is not.
The zeal-archon build that have been somewhat popular lately is not a revolution, even if the timings used now are different from the earlier iterations.
Going from walking to a bike with 3 wheels is a revolution, going from a bike with 3 wheels to a bike with 2 is NOT.
On December 26 2008 21:43 Fwmeh wrote: It seems we reach a point where people playing really well labels them as revolutionary. While it is hard to exactly define revolutionary, I think it should be pretty clear that refining and developing BOs is not it. Bisu's sair/dt was a revolution, but the revolution does not reoccur every time someone streamline the build, or fits it into new maps.
To me, a revolution is where you have a new concept, different from what was previously seen, and a BO that can make it work. A standard build that incorporate queens, that can be worked out on most maps can be seen as revolutionary. Changing the timing of existing popular builds to make them more efficient is not.
The zeal-archon build that have been somewhat popular lately is not a revolution, even if the timings used now are different from the earlier iterations.
Going from walking to a bike with 3 wheels is a revolution, going from a bike with 3 wheels to a bike with 2 is NOT.
That definition is way too dependent on circumstances, considering bisu's revolution was itself just a counter build to savior's style, and it just so happens that style was widespread cus savior was THE ZERG.
If that's the case bisu's revolution ended with jaedong's counter to his sair/reaver/dt. But jaedong's not called revolutionary cus Bisu's not as dominant as Savior. So now PvZ is once again the product of current protoss players at large, and not just 1 particular P. In that case Bisu shouldn't be called revolutionist any more, as he's just good at the MU now.
It's all a matter of perspective.
Essentially to be revolutionary by your definition is impossible today cus there's no bonjwa, no one to standardize a single dominant style of play that everyone else can emulate. No single standard results in no revolutionary counter.
On December 26 2008 21:11 .risingdragoon wrote: being a god at a mu inevitably means a lot of small deviations, this is what's influential - protoss don't used to ever archon meld in battle, or use the scouting probe to delay the natural hatch, or used pylon to draw a-move fire, or a number of other stuff
it's not really one big revolution, those haven't existed since the pioneer days. instead all these so-called revolutions are, and arguably they must, be built on top of already known concepts, only with a different and much improved set of thinking, timing, and controls to them.
they are rightfully called revolutionary cus they work in the present, reversed the standards, not cus they never existed.
and jaedong's forced terrans to adapt to his style and timing, he was influential for a long time. as for revolutionary... honestly I think it's all just semantics.
also jaedong showed zerg how to defeat sair/reaver with his maphack-ling and hydra burrows. you can call that reversing bisu's revolution. recently he even developed a queen/defiler strategy vT. I mean, god now that I've started the list it's clear he's got a ton of innovations. Add them all up makes him revolutionary.
Not so sure about this revolutionary argument though. As far as I'm concerned, Jaedong did the one thing no other zerg managed - maintain a strong win ratio against Bisu. That's revolution enough for me.
EDIT: This is the finaledit quote I was thinking of. Wonder what hot_bid thinks of it now.
"Why? Because scratched in at the bottom of his list, in barely legible handwriting, was:
LOL, this thread has become retarded. Koreans call the current ZvP => 3 hatch lair spire 4 5 hatch den Lee Jae Dong's Neo-Sauron. So there's one thing.
EPT
care to explain what that is? I wager that its merely an extension of his mechanics, which in fact, is nothing revolutionary. 
