EPTPoll: Winner would be
(Vote): F-16 Fighter
(Vote): Zerg Mutalisk
[EDIT]Could anyone inform me about the poll thingie, the image seems to be fcuk'd[/EDIT]
[P] F16 Fighter versus Mutalisk
| Forum Index > BW General |
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wo0py
Netherlands922 Posts
Poll: Winner would be (Vote): F-16 Fighter (Vote): Zerg Mutalisk [EDIT]Could anyone inform me about the poll thingie, the image seems to be fcuk'd[/EDIT] | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
mutas alreayd own wraiths, so f16s would be a piece of cake | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
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Xiberia
Sweden634 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
It can kill the Mutalisk from ~12 miles away no problem. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
![[image loading]](http://pix.nofrag.com/9/1/6/d1893c86e10a35b32abdbc37cbfe7.gif) | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
that should kill a muta | ||
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ZhenMiChan
Netherlands1181 Posts
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LosingID8
CA10825 Posts
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Response
United States1936 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
sc marines arent much bigger than today's people and a muta's attack range is like what...7 marines? Thats not very far at all. And at top speed, it can fly over 6 marines per second? Thats not very fast doesnt seem like muta has a chance, even if it can ohko | ||
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MeriaDoKk
Chile1726 Posts
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lazymej
Canada269 Posts
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JoxxOr
Sweden1502 Posts
A F16 can shoot a computer. Logic | ||
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lazymej
Canada269 Posts
On April 18 2008 04:00 JoxxOr wrote: A mutalisk can only be found inside a computer. A F16 can shoot a computer. Logic He wins. | ||
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wo0py
Netherlands922 Posts
On April 18 2008 03:02 jello_biafra wrote: Yeah you can't tell which is which in the poll, but I assume Muta is winning On April 18 2008 03:44 GoSuPlAyEr wrote: the poll isnt showing text for me Ye thats the bug the new server gave us. i guess On April 18 2008 04:00 JoxxOr wrote: A mutalisk can only be found inside a computer. A F16 can shoot a computer. Logic Romanian warning. I think Mutaliks simply out micros the wraith. For being a mutaliks. Cloaking would matter ofc. And dont you think the range of an muta is more then 120 miles? it can fire of strange looking bouncy thingies that strike 3times. Muta so ez. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On April 18 2008 04:49 Luddite wrote: The muta can attack from outer space, where the F16 can't even attack it. Sure it can. F-15s were modified to shoot down satellites. Adapting it to an F-16 would probably be trivial. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/ASAT_missile_launch.jpg | ||
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CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
From this, we can conclude that the F16's main range advantage over a mutalisk is largely negated. However, the F16 also has a large speed advantage over a mutalisk. If the F16 can score even a few hits before coming into mutalisk range, it can turn around, put some distance between them, and repeat, much like goliath-BC micro, or vulture-zergling micro. It all depends on if the F16 can get any hits on the mutalisk at extreme range. If it can, which is likely (even if only a few), the F16 can win easily, assuming no mistakes are made. | ||
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stenole
Norway868 Posts
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KwarK
United States42364 Posts
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Krzycho
Poland442 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
only noobs use F16:s. No micro at all with fire & forget aim-120s and 1k+nades/minute. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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cyronc
218 Posts
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anch
United States5457 Posts
I am going with Mutalisk, they can evolve to Devourers. They still have their final metamorphosis phase or some SC2 shitz. SC is like 300 years later in our time line, so why are we comparing a plane of current century? | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
And for those who say Wraith < F16... wtf? Wraith is basically a combat fighter 200+ years more advanced than anything we have right now. Given its weak ground attack, its clearly designed more for air superiority role than anything else. It is also able to take tremendous amounts of damage compared to modern fighters, i.e. it is fully functional from 120 hp to 1 hp. F-16 is an outdated aircraft anyways. It's in the process of being succeeded by the F-23. Plus, even *China* has designed an aircraft that can out perform the F-16, and China's somewhere about 20 years behind the US in military technology. | ||
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axel
France385 Posts
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CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
i forget who it was, but there was a sick game a month or so back where tvz on bluestorm terran went vults into 2(?) port wraiths to hold off the initial muta harrass. was siiiick | ||
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Darkmole
United States900 Posts
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kyjori
371 Posts
On April 18 2008 06:59 axel wrote: anyway f-16 missile range are very high ^^ and f16 can fly faster than mach 3 rite? f16 cannot fly above mach 3, hell its a reach to get to mach 2 (only achieved at higher altitudes, at sea level, a little above mach 1 with afterburners on), single engined jet fighter except the CG variant. also to the idiot who said aim 120s had a rnage of 120 miles +, u are flat out wrong. you are thinking of the f14 aim 54 phoenix missiles. the amraam (advanced MEDIUM RANGE air to air missile) has a effecitive range to about 50 ish miles, give or take. f16 has a worse turn radius than the SU-27 flanker, f-22 raptor with vector thrust and f/a-18 hornet, so manueverability is bad. the speed isnt that great considerin the fact that the f22 is the only us jet to reach mach speeds without the use of afterburners near sea level.... HENCE the muta would fucking wtfpwn the f16. | ||
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aeronexus
United States392 Posts
On April 18 2008 04:57 LonelyMargarita wrote: Sure it can. F-15s were modified to shoot down satellites. Adapting it to an F-16 would probably be trivial. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/ASAT_missile_launch.jpg well if we're allowing modifications.... [enter]power overwhelming[enter] also, best of luck to any missile trying to stay locked on to a muta. and once the two get into a dogfight, gg F16. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
In a verses match we take evidence, not conjecture into account. We cannot assume that wraiths are more powerful than F-16s merely because they exist several hundred years into the future. The only admissible evidence is what is canonical: primary source being the game, and secondly any fiction. Thus far we have seen Terran technology to be a mixed bag; while using some futuristic technology such as cloaking, it is also incredibly backward in many ways (the vertically shaped, double-barrelled, short-barrelled siege tank for instance, is a poor pre-WW2 armour design which could easily be outgunned by a Panther or T-34-85. All evidence suggests that the mutalisk is incapable of out-fighting a 4th generation fighter, when it is outranged by infantry and has a much more difficult time doing damage to a supply depot, for instance, than a F-16 would in a ground attack role. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On April 18 2008 08:24 jkillashark wrote: The muta must fly until the F-16 is out of gas. F-16 can only engage when its target is moving WITH the F-16. Thus, mutalisk wins. Who says that the infantry U-238 URANIUM shells aren't stronger than the A-A missiles from an F-16. Remember the year is like 12345 AD. T We already use U-238 shells in the US army. No, it's not stronger than missiles. The mutalisk cannot outfly a F-16, being nowhere near mach speed. (As we can deduce from cinematics.) | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
Mutalisk is HP baised F16 is real world baised im pretty sure 1 decent hit with the glave is gg for the F16; while the mutalisk unless nuke will live though several hits. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
Also, terran civilians are really strong, and marines can shoot for miles. [[EDIT]] In terms of damaging a supply depot, remember that a nuclear weapon is barely enough to take one out. I'd like to see a F-14 do that. | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
On April 18 2008 07:35 MoltkeWarding wrote: Completely wrong. A mutalisk's primary attack is so weak that it takes five hits to kill an unarmed terran civilian. Its defenses are so weak that it can be brought down by depleted uranium shells, the same as those used by the US army. I'd like to see anyone bring down a F-16 with infantry weapons. In a verses match we take evidence, not conjecture into account. We cannot assume that wraiths are more powerful than F-16s merely because they exist several hundred years into the future. The only admissible evidence is what is canonical: primary source being the game, and secondly any fiction. Thus far we have seen Terran technology to be a mixed bag; while using some futuristic technology such as cloaking, it is also incredibly backward in many ways (the vertically shaped, double-barrelled, short-barrelled siege tank for instance, is a poor pre-WW2 armour design which could easily be outgunned by a Panther or T-34-85. All evidence suggests that the mutalisk is incapable of out-fighting a 4th generation fighter, when it is outranged by infantry and has a much more difficult time doing damage to a supply depot, for instance, than a F-16 would in a ground attack role. Hmm... Totally wrong How Starcraft units play out is obviously based not on realism but on game balance. However, since you are taking "evidence" (which can incidentally be twisted oh so many ways by looking at different unit relationships), I will argue on your grounds. First of all, according to Blizz, the Marine rifle is much more powerful than your average modern-day rifle. They use Gauss technology, which presumably allows the high-density U-238 bullets to travel faster and thus have better penetration than modern rifles. So, okay, if a Mutalisk can be brought down by 20+ bursts of a super high-powered assault rifle that's fine- I'm pretty sure an F-16, if you are able to hit it with even half as many bursts, will go down in a fireball. A mutalisk's structural integrity is still very good. Second of all, the Mutalisk's attack is not "weak." In the Starcraft world, it takes 5 hits for a mutalisk to take out an unarmed "but no proof for being unarmored" civilian. Similarly, it takes 7 hits from the aforementioned high-powered gauss rifle to take down a civilian (yes, that makes perfect sense -_-). So a mutalisk's firepower is at least more potent than several high-velocity U-238 rounds. Thirdly, there is the question of maneuverability. A mutalisk can, never mind turn on a dime, turn on a PIXEL without the loss of velocity. F-16's do not even have vector thrust. Even if its speed is very slow, say 300 mph (not too unreasonable based on the FMV's), in a dogfight maneuverability is key. Most of the new generation fighters have lower maximum speeds than the previous generation (F-18 compared to F-14, F-22 compared to F-15, and so on), but better maneuverability. In this aspect the Mutalisk can dodge missiles and out turn the F-16 every time. Lastly, there is the structural integrity of the F-16. Based on "evidence," a mutalisk can survive 13 dual-missile volleys, or 13 missile turret missiles (which don't really count, its since the modern equivalent would be like the Patriot missile system). A wraith, incidentally, can survive 6. An F-16 can survive... one? At most? And based on more "evidence," all starcraft units have perfect aim. So that means the F-16 can survive at most, 3 hits from a mutalisk, provided that they do not hit critical areas such as the cockpit. Therefore, Mutalisk > F16. I have too much time on my hands. | ||
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RaGe
Belgium9946 Posts
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GoogleIt
392 Posts
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FragKrag
United States11549 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On April 18 2008 07:02 CTStalker wrote: wraiths have longer range than mutas. i forget who it was, but there was a sick game a month or so back where tvz on bluestorm terran went vults into 2(?) port wraiths to hold off the initial muta harrass. was siiiick Upmagic vs. Jaedong went something like that IIRC. Dunno if he specifically went vults to wraiths but he definitely used wraiths to great effect. Upmagic had a huge lead then blew it when his wraiths died. Jaedong would not be stopped Royal Road. | ||
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Piano
Korea (South)401 Posts
On April 18 2008 10:46 Newbistic wrote: Hmm... Totally wrong How Starcraft units play out is obviously based not on realism but on game balance. However, since you are taking "evidence" (which can incidentally be twisted oh so many ways by looking at different unit relationships), I will argue on your grounds. First of all, according to Blizz, the Marine rifle is much more powerful than your average modern-day rifle. They use Gauss technology, which presumably allows the high-density U-238 bullets to travel faster and thus have better penetration than modern rifles. So, okay, if a Mutalisk can be brought down by 20+ bursts of a super high-powered assault rifle that's fine- I'm pretty sure an F-16, if you are able to hit it with even half as many bursts, will go down in a fireball. A mutalisk's structural integrity is still very good. Second of all, the Mutalisk's attack is not "weak." In the Starcraft world, it takes 5 hits for a mutalisk to take out an unarmed "but no proof for being unarmored" civilian. Similarly, it takes 7 hits from the aforementioned high-powered gauss rifle to take down a civilian (yes, that makes perfect sense -_-). So a mutalisk's firepower is at least more potent than several high-velocity U-238 rounds. Thirdly, there is the question of maneuverability. A mutalisk can, never mind turn on a dime, turn on a PIXEL without the loss of velocity. F-16's do not even have vector thrust. Even if its speed is very slow, say 300 mph (not too unreasonable based on the FMV's), in a dogfight maneuverability is key. Most of the new generation fighters have lower maximum speeds than the previous generation (F-18 compared to F-14, F-22 compared to F-15, and so on), but better maneuverability. In this aspect the Mutalisk can dodge missiles and out turn the F-16 every time. Lastly, there is the structural integrity of the F-16. Based on "evidence," a mutalisk can survive 13 dual-missile volleys, or 13 missile turret missiles (which don't really count, its since the modern equivalent would be like the Patriot missile system). A wraith, incidentally, can survive 6. An F-16 can survive... one? At most? And based on more "evidence," all starcraft units have perfect aim. So that means the F-16 can survive at most, 3 hits from a mutalisk, provided that they do not hit critical areas such as the cockpit. Therefore, Mutalisk > F16. I have too much time on my hands. haha..nice analysis. but one thing seems to be off...right now we're comparing the muta in the sc world, and f16 in the real world...but shouldn't we be comparing both muta and f16 in real world, or both in the sc world? what i mean is what is applicable to the f16 in the real world might be slightly altered in the sc world haha...pretty cool topic though nonetheless. | ||
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On April 18 2008 11:07 GoogleIt wrote: i really hope F-16 owns mutalisks. just because if the mutalisks starts attacking humans i really hope our airforce can handle this ps this threat is coo'. | ||
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Plutonium
United States2217 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On April 18 2008 04:57 LonelyMargarita wrote: Sure it can. F-15s were modified to shoot down satellites. Adapting it to an F-16 would probably be trivial. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/ASAT_missile_launch.jpg Ha, good point, but bear in mind that scourges are basically missiles (their purpose is to sacrifice themselves to kill something else), and mutas can shoot down scourges, so I assume that a muta could also shoot down an anti-sat missile. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
On April 18 2008 11:14 FragKrag wrote: F16 has missiles. Yeah, hf shooting me you fucking nub muta. Reduced dmg lol muta is small unit best to use normal dmg when random shit clashes in the space time lol mutas can stack and thus defy the laws of physics fundamental law of quantum physics is the Pauli exclusion principle, which states that no two electrons can occupy the same point in space at the same time with the same direction of spin even if the 1 mutalisk was matter and the other anti matter that can only stack 2 thus mutalisk arent matter at all. Also they would porably explode releasing all the energy of their 2 masses if they stacked like that | ||
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dinmsab
Malaysia2246 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
One single mutalisk shot would cut any of today's steel like butter and cause the plane to lose all flight control and crash. While it's missiles wouldn't scratch the carapace of an alien creature which can stand many shots from much higher technologically advanced missiles from the far away future. Anyone who disagree is obviously a noob who never flied on a F16 and shot an alien. | ||
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Play
Australia608 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
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kekekekyle
Canada32 Posts
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Danger_Duck
Burkina Faso571 Posts
On April 18 2008 11:55 Luddite wrote: Ha, good point, but bear in mind that scourges are basically missiles (their purpose is to sacrifice themselves to kill something else), and mutas can shoot down scourges, so I assume that a muta could also shoot down an anti-sat missile. Missiles do not give you the luxury of sitting and staring at you for a moment before killing you | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
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xmShake
United States1100 Posts
On April 18 2008 14:25 kekekekyle wrote: How does a mutalisk fly through space where there is nothing for it's wings to push on?! +Jetpack. | ||
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lazymej
Canada269 Posts
On April 18 2008 14:41 Lemonwalrus wrote: This is an actual question, does the F-16 have any non-missle weapons? Do they even bother to put machine-gun type weapons on supersonic jets? Yes they do. On virtually all of them. | ||
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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Krohm
Canada1857 Posts
A Mutalisk on the other hand, from the same stand point. Would really be unable to travel at those speeds. (This is just from a "What we know as possible" standpoint) I don't think a Mutalisk could beat it's wings fast enough to keep pace with any Terran air vehicle. Nor is it capable of traveling in space. Unless it has some sort of unexplained propulsion system... So really, I believe a F-16, would completely waste a Mutalisk. Sure missiles would not be able to lock onto it. That doesn't mean they couldn't use their guns. The Mutalisk would really be dead before it even knew what hit it. Unless it seen it coming. Then maybe it could avoid the F-16. F-16s are just to fast for it to compete with. So yeah, I'd have to go with a F-16. But from a game stand point. The Mutalisk would win. Since Muta > Wraith. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Just 1v1 in air? Mutalisks can fly forever, eventually F16 will crash, no chance what so ever. 1v1 in air Mutalisks can evade above atomsphere, again, F16 will be unable to chase. Easy dodge. Mutalisks can morph into devour, which could slow F16, causing it to crash, seeing how F16 cannot suspend in midair like a wraith could. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On April 18 2008 10:46 Newbistic wrote: Hmm... Totally wrong How Starcraft units play out is obviously based not on realism but on game balance. However, since you are taking "evidence" (which can incidentally be twisted oh so many ways by looking at different unit relationships), I will argue on your grounds. First of all, according to Blizz, the Marine rifle is much more powerful than your average modern-day rifle. They use Gauss technology, which presumably allows the high-density U-238 bullets to travel faster and thus have better penetration than modern rifles. So, okay, if a Mutalisk can be brought down by 20+ bursts of a super high-powered assault rifle that's fine- I'm pretty sure an F-16, if you are able to hit it with even half as many bursts, will go down in a fireball. A mutalisk's structural integrity is still very good. Second of all, the Mutalisk's attack is not "weak." In the Starcraft world, it takes 5 hits for a mutalisk to take out an unarmed "but no proof for being unarmored" civilian. Similarly, it takes 7 hits from the aforementioned high-powered gauss rifle to take down a civilian (yes, that makes perfect sense -_-). So a mutalisk's firepower is at least more potent than several high-velocity U-238 rounds. Thirdly, there is the question of maneuverability. A mutalisk can, never mind turn on a dime, turn on a PIXEL without the loss of velocity. F-16's do not even have vector thrust. Even if its speed is very slow, say 300 mph (not too unreasonable based on the FMV's), in a dogfight maneuverability is key. Most of the new generation fighters have lower maximum speeds than the previous generation (F-18 compared to F-14, F-22 compared to F-15, and so on), but better maneuverability. In this aspect the Mutalisk can dodge missiles and out turn the F-16 every time. Lastly, there is the structural integrity of the F-16. Based on "evidence," a mutalisk can survive 13 dual-missile volleys, or 13 missile turret missiles (which don't really count, its since the modern equivalent would be like the Patriot missile system). A wraith, incidentally, can survive 6. An F-16 can survive... one? At most? And based on more "evidence," all starcraft units have perfect aim. So that means the F-16 can survive at most, 3 hits from a mutalisk, provided that they do not hit critical areas such as the cockpit. Therefore, Mutalisk > F16. I have too much time on my hands. Look, I am following standard verses rules which take into account creditable feats and not imagined ones, Let's look at which of your claims are substantiated by primary or secondary source evidence: -The mutalisk can dodge missiles (have you ever seen a mutalisk dodge a missile?) -The gauss rifles of marines, which supposedly are a good match against zerglings (the same Zergling which was KOed by a bloody jeep in blizzard's own cut scene) is much more powerful than modern rifles and is capable of sufficient range and damage to down a F-16 -The mutalisk's attack, even if comparable to infantry fire (they actually deal much less damage/time than a marine) is merely that. -In a dogfight manoeuvrability is key IF two aircraft can achieve comparable speed. Judging by the cut scene of SC1, a mutalisk doesn't move much faster than a biplane. A F-16 can zig-zag its attacks and outrun it by a mile. -That a missile turret has equivalent capability to a modern missile, which it obviously does not, (it also has no tracking capability) given that it could not shoot down one of those prehistoric critters in fewer than six shots. | ||
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Crazyeyes
Canada1342 Posts
In their original forms these creatures were capable of atmospheric and deep-space flight, although how they accomplished such a feat is poorly understood. Apparently they were even capable of migrating between stars, presumably while in some kind of larval form. So yeah, they can fly in space. Somehow. ^^ There is also proof in game, as they have absolutely no trouble flying on space-platform maps. People arn't comparing them correctly, though. You either compare them both in "realism", or both "in game". Realistically, a glaive wurm would rip an F16 to shreds, go through it, and take out the next 12 F16's behind it. It woudlnt even bounce. It'd just rip right through.... if it hit. On the other hand, an F16's rocket would blow the crap out of the mutalisk. Even some good cannon fire would rip it apart. It could hit its wing and it could lose its flying ability. It could lose a vital organ, possibly bleeding to death, or even dying instantly (brain, heart?). Blow its brains out. Literally. ^^ It would be exactly the same with a Wraith. From an SC-ingame standpoint, everything is different. Everything is scaled. Battlecruisers, in "real life", could have like 12 baseball feilds in them. They're liek flying carriers, only bigger. Think Imperial Cruisers from Star Wars, with a yamato gun. Yet, in-game-scale, you'd be surrprised that a goliath could even fit in there. Obviously, no matter how much armour a marine has, he can't withstand a glaive wurm. If he could hit the muta, he could probably kill it. Still, unless the muta is mentally challanged, it wont' drop right in front of him and start attacking. It'll be flying over, shoot, and continue on doing whatever the hell its diong. Thers no way your oging to hit a target thats moving that quickly (although, since theyre zerg, theres probably thousands/millions/billions. Firing at it might miss, but you'd probably hit another ^^) You also have to take it account that both coudl miss and dodge. I would put my money on the Muta, although the F16 certainly stands a chance. Put in a more advanced fighter and the Muta's chances go down further; not completely though. In most cases, I'd say "first one to hit wins". | ||
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MaReK
Australia446 Posts
On April 18 2008 16:25 Cr4zy3y3s wrote: In most cases, I'd say "first one to hit wins". Agreed. | ||
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dinmsab
Malaysia2246 Posts
This is what makes them so imba compared to F16s. | ||
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TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
In game representation: Mutalisks. Mass muta always rape wraiths head to head and it doesn't look like F-16 could have splash damage. | ||
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TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
And how fast would mutas fly realistically? Mutas are not aerodynamic at all, they are like worms with wings. If they can somehow reach say 200 mph, that is already unreal. And that's not even a third of the speed of an F-16. The jet would jsut outmaneuver and pick off every singe muta. | ||
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Bet you all looked at your keyboard just then | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On April 18 2008 17:54 TheTyranid wrote: Oh and to people who say that a glaive would cut straight through an F-16. That is utter bogus. The glaive wurm would never even hit the F-16. How could a projectile launched by muscular spasms with no lock on hit a supersonic jet? It can't. It's hard to hit a supersonic jet even with missiles and you are talking about a piece of bone for christ's sake. And how fast would mutas fly realistically? Mutas are not aerodynamic at all, they are like worms with wings. If they can somehow reach say 200 mph, that is already unreal. And that's not even a third of the speed of an F-16. The jet would jsut outmaneuver and pick off every singe muta. GlaveWurm is NOT a piece of bone, get your facts straight. | ||
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kimurra
25 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia917 Posts
That also means there'd be 999999 mutalisks for one F16. | ||
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
Poll: God vs Richard Dawkins (Vote): God (Vote): Richard Dawkins (Vote): Another Fact vs Fiction ! | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
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diehilde1
Germany522 Posts
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KrAzYfoOL
Australia3037 Posts
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