this is why boxer is so great and so fun to watch.
proxy builds are fairly common these days, especially on blue storm and especially when you are playing vs boxer.
we've seen players proxy to end the game in <5 minutes. we've seen players proxy to harass mineral lines but boxer's new proxy is a step ahead of everyone else...
1. he purposely proxied and allowed ruby to scout his base. 2. ruby seeing an empty base knew proxy is on its way and pumped marines and walled his choke, while teching up. 3. boxer knew ruby will turtle so he expanded while continuing his tech. 4. by the time ruby realized the proxy was an empty threat and decided to expand, he was already behind in econ and failed to scout boxer's tech tree 5. boxer move on to fortify a contain, while expanding. unable to break out, behind on econ and loosing his expo, ruby threw in the towel.
for the entire game, boxer knew exactly how ruby will react, what unit and tech ruby will have. while ruby was completely shocked to see boxer getting wraiths, vultures n tanks. ruby's marines were pushed back by vultures. his tanks were stopped by mines. his gols were killed by tanks. everything ruby had was answered by boxer.
very impressive play by boxer. he had total control of the game. ruby's scouting information was being used against himself.
I also noted (and maybe it's obvious), but with his factories there Boxer's units had full access to midmap, while Ruby's couldn't fit through the tiny choke and thus only had one way out (besides dropships).
This TvT was Freshhhhh. Games like this are a precious jewl among the ocean of 30 minute lullaby TvT's out there now. The best part was when Boxer was sieging Ruby's nat ecoline and Ruby could not get vision on those tanks because his floating rax was getting hit by wraiths. Ruby's goliaths would be hit by tanks if they got too close to hit the wraiths. Ruby couldn't do anything at that point, his face was priceless when they zoomed on him moments later.
On January 08 2008 21:33 NonY[rC] wrote: zzzzz I don't think boxer is the only one who can do shit like this. He's just the only one whose game revolves around it. So boring...
On January 08 2008 21:33 NonY[rC] wrote: zzzzz I don't think boxer is the only one who can do shit like this. He's just the only one whose game revolves around it. So boring...
how is it boring to see something new? you rather watch similar games all the time?
Personally, i admire boxer for being able to think out of the box after all these years as a progamer. From big things that made many pimpest plays, to smaller things like this that make you smile. He's truly something else.
On January 08 2008 21:33 NonY[rC] wrote: zzzzz I don't think boxer is the only one who can do shit like this. He's just the only one whose game revolves around it. So boring...
yea, like the guy who invented the flop in high jump. everyone can do it, but he was the only one who needed it to win. so boring...
On January 08 2008 21:33 NonY[rC] wrote: zzzzz I don't think boxer is the only one who can do shit like this. He's just the only one whose game revolves around it. So boring...
Whats boring exactly ? No boxer isn't the only one who can do this, but you know something? hes the only one tho who has balls to take the risk doing such builds on tv games,I dont see other terrans trying something new so often and boxer does it like every time.zzz
I wouldn't call it balls, I'd call it smart. I guess what NonY meant is that it doesn't take balls to do, it's just a way to win that doesn't need so much mechanical skill. I don't see why it should be boring though. It's the fault of coaches to turn their young players into machines who can not think outside of the standard strategies they learned. And it _is_ astonishing that after so many years Boxer can still find ways to abuse their narrow-mindedness.
Apart from that I don't think the fake proxy rush set Ruby so far back. After all, Boxer did in fact build two fax and vultures and Ruby's marines didn't cost too much. I think what won Boxer the game was that he scouted a lot better. Ruby didn't use his rax to scout, couldn't use SCVs and got his scanner very late. In TvT, if you know what and where your opponent's units are, you practically can't lose.
When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
I don't think that people like Boxer for his micro. When Boxer first came to the scene he dominated because of his dropship micro and his multitasking. Nowadays every great player has that. The one thing that sets Boxer apart from the others and that makes him unique is that you never know what he's going to do because he seems to understand the game and especially the mind games that go on between players better than anyone else. And this game exemplifies just that.
Remember when he lifted his CC hoping that his opponent would scout all three positions without finding an enemy base? It didn't work, it didn't involve micro or any mechanical skills whatsoever, but people loved him for it. Especially the spectators that don't have such a firm grasp on the machanics of the games.
One other player that very consciously included mind games in his strategies was Savior when he won the OSL against Nada. When he infested Nada's CC in one of the games it didn't do anything in that game, but I think that it made Nada feel bad. It's like saying "I have such an edge over you that I have time to do things like these." It's rubbing salt into a wound. That isn't Boxer's style and it's nowhere near the brilliance Boxer shows, but I think it gives Savior an additional edge, like Boxer's unpredictability give him an edge, even though Boxer is rusty and is therefore miles away from winning a title. But that may change when he's out of the army again.
On January 08 2008 13:19 TheTyranid wrote: This TvT was Freshhhhh. Games like this are a precious jewl among the ocean of 30 minute lullaby TvT's out there now. The best part was when Boxer was sieging Ruby's nat ecoline and Ruby could not get vision on those tanks because his floating rax was getting hit by wraiths. Ruby's goliaths would be hit by tanks if they got too close to hit the wraiths. Ruby couldn't do anything at that point, his face was priceless when they zoomed on him moments later.
All hail the Emperor.
I know! Half the game I was like "OMFG BOXER hahahha!" and half the game I was like "Oh shit this is so rape"
Man I was doubting boxer would take this game before the game start but game like this... boxer show us "I'm the emperor bitch!" Man... he IS still boxer.
On January 08 2008 21:33 NonY[rC] wrote: zzzzz I don't think boxer is the only one who can do shit like this. He's just the only one whose game revolves around it. So boring...
I and many posters in this thread find the game "refreshing" and "amazing". If you find it boring then okay, kinda feel bad for you that you cannot seek joys in such game.
This game was awesome. While watching it, I thought Boxer was just building outside his base to have avoid the tanks and gols not being forced to walk around that mini path but now I also see the thinking on HIS side. It's Boxer's unpredictability that makes him unique.
The game vs hiya was even better strategically-wise in my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Since in Blue Storm TvT it's all about managing to stall the opponent, and usually the battle ensues as soon as possible for that purpose(gay mass vults madness), he used marine and medics! to do it, abusing the fact that mechanical units can't go for the small path and that there's an upper ground in front of the nat to place marines and medics and give them an advangate vs vults. Since hiya was obviously scared about a rush he made vults (and failed to kill the mm force in front of his nat), gols and only after siege tanks, giving boxer full time to go tanks aswell and succesfully stall hiya, the follow up then was the same as in this game, wraith and tanks
On January 09 2008 01:48 UbRi wrote: The game vs hiya was even better strategically-wise in my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Since in Blue Storm TvT it's all about managing to stall the opponent, and usually the battle ensues as soon as possible for that purpose(gay mass vults madness), he used marine and medics! to do it, abusing the fact that mechanical units can't go for the small path and that there's an upper ground in front of the nat to place marines and medics and give them an advangate vs vults. Since hiya was obviously scared about a rush he made vults (and failed to kill the mm force in front of his nat), gols and only after siege tanks, giving boxer full time to go tanks aswell and succesfully stall hiya, the follow up then was the same as in this game, wraith and tanks
The game vs Hiya, showed absolutely why this guy is the emperor, the build Boxer used on Blue Storm is THE perfect TvT build, maximizing using the map as the advantage. He showed why he still has it.
sometimes boxer plays like WOW, His TvT is now in better shape than when he was in SKT1 i think... Recently also beating Mind who was at that time PROLEAGUE winner who won TvT iloveoov
On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote: When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
i think i understand. But, remember, the most excitment comes from danger. And using a strategy like that is dangerous/risky. Pure gold for audience.
i think nony is like a good skater who watches other skater perform tricks. Audience aplauds the most to some trick that might look cool, but he realizes that trick isnt even among the harder ones to pull off.
On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote: When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
The beautiful thing about his 2 proxy builds on Blue Storm is that they can't be used on other maps. BoxeR figured a way against HiyA to access his ennemy's ramp before him, while still hiding therefor containing him. He removed the disadvantage of the tiny choke by building factories in the same area both times. RuBy reacted the only way he could given the information he had on BoxeR's build and having seen HiyA's destruction, he opted for a safe defensive build. BoxeR is smart and knows that people expect him to cheese and go for quick wins. He had RuBy guessing for the most part of the game and was in complete control of the map. He exerted his will from the beginning till the end and there was nothing RuBy could do about it.
On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote: When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
Nony with all your respect... I cannot believe you think that way"Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring". That's exactly why boxer is different from other pro gamers is for doing shit like that and playing different than others. What is so exciting about Bisu being perfect? bisu doing the same build over and over again and winning just because he is faster and he can multitask better? How is that more exciting than playing outside of the box weird as fuck risking loosing the game to give joy to the fans? building a engineering bay in your opponent's mineral line? playing mind games with your opponents. Look at the face of Ruby when he is loosing... he is pulling so many faces, because of the way he got played. Fans love that.
Look at people's reaction when they lose to bisu. They are just like "oh well, this guy is unbeatable he is a perfect multitasking machine"
On the other side, there was a lot of hype before that game of Boxer vs Ruby. People calling boxer old, unpracticed, slow, etc. And Ruby being the new young blood that is used to the multitasking to the extreme plus speed and new style of gaming. I strongly believe people was waiting on ruby rolling over boxer. But what happened? Boxer schooled the youngsta with weird builds + switching to wraiths when he coulda basically just kept pushing/drop tank/golis. And everyone enjoyed Ruby's face being like "omg omg . wtf, wtf I cant do anything"
It's a lot like MJ playing for the Wizards, having to outsmart younger players since he can't keep up physically (although in this case it's just in practice time.) It's not really the young guys' fault, they're simply inexperienced and that comes with the territory. Luckily in this case, I assume Boxer isn't nearly as restricted by his age as MJ was when he returned.
@NonY[rC]: I salute you for opposing TL's general opinion on this game, but I have the impression that you're doing it for that sole purpose.
Personally, I love mindgames. Even though I don't watch many VODs and my skill level isn't very high, I'm positive that if it was, I would still enjoy this game.
poor ruby didnt do anything wrong really. he did everything in a standard TvT matchup. except boxer gambled his game in hope that ruby will play standard, and poor ruby became the new poster child of boxer's ingeniuty.
On January 10 2008 12:47 dybydx wrote:boxer was playing TvT, ruby was playing T_T
Rofl classic, never thought of it that way. I would like to see Boxer frustrated for once though. It seems that every time he pulls a crazy strat it WORKS. Maybe that's why he's so awesome :D. Or...maybe only the ones that work get aired.
On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote: When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
It wasn't simply carrying and advantage in the most simple way. More boring players would be likely to go the macro route after gaining a small-but-meaningful advantage in terms of an expansion.
Boxer read/guessed his opponent correctly on multiple points, mostly to the conclusion that he knew ruby would be very passive. It allowed him to fast expand and go cloaking wraiths off a ridiculously low troop count, and then have his otherwise unimpressive force of tanks at the one position where they would be significant: ruby's natural.
On January 10 2008 12:47 dybydx wrote:boxer was playing TvT, ruby was playing T_T
Rofl classic, never thought of it that way. I would like to see Boxer frustrated for once though. It seems that every time he pulls a crazy strat it WORKS. Maybe that's why he's so awesome :D. Or...maybe only the ones that work get aired.
Censorship?
As for Nony's argument, the thing is that when Boxer does that sort of stuff he doesn't miscalculate his opponent's reaction, while other players usually do. Remember the game vs. Sheis? Or the game vs. oov on RH3 (2?), that game on Bifrost where he used the (in)famous Barracks block, or where he did a similar thing against ChoJJa (??), preventing him from defending his own expo? Or when he proxied Factory in order to kill Anytime's backing out Dragoons on Neo Forte?
Do you really think he depends on simple assumptions and gets THAT lucky, Nony?
I seriously doubt if any true Starcraft fan could really find Boxer's games boring. His play could get boring yes, sometimes in the past, but that's when he tried to play it safe in unBoxerish macro style.
Nony when you said that was boring, I knew deep down in your heart you knew it was NOT. It's nice to go against the public opinion but just don't lie to yourself ok
While I thoroughly enjoyed the game and thought Boxer's move was great, I think I understand Nony's point of view. It's two different ways of seeing the game.
The idea of playing the perfect game is something that the greatest players in any game strive for. Seeing a player play such a beautiful game and get close to that perfection is awe-inspiring. It's the kinda thing that gives you chills because their play is just so good.
Boxer's play here, on the other hand, is more about the excitement of the mind game, and his ability to know what the other person will do. He was able to manipulate his opponent into playing a certain way, and then countered it beautifully. It's amazing in a different way.
I think the fact that you can see both of these things are part of the reason why Starcraft is such a great game. There's just so many different aspects of the game, that even after a decade it still hasn't gotten old.
On January 08 2008 23:05 NonY[rC] wrote: When I look at this match, I see one thing at work: Boxer finds a spot in the game when his opponent is likely to make an assumption and then he depends on that assumption to gain an advantage. So Boxer made Ruby assume that a rush was coming and then he didn't rush. The resulting advantage was big enough that it carried Boxer all the way to a victory a while later. Glorifying what Boxer did beyond punishing an assumption is silly and boring.
I don't think punishing assumptions is always boring but I think faking a rush and then teching/expanding is about the simplest way to do it. I think an exciting and good game is one that shows a variety of skills and proficiencies including micro, macro, multitasking, tactics and strategy. I find the idea of having an unbeatable strategy (one that can handle any opening and can constantly adjust to handle anything) much more appealing than one that clearly has holes in it. I see this game as being decided by one simple and ancient strategy that would take any Terran about 1 day of practice to figure out. But you don't see most Terrans and professionals in general playing like this because they don't like relying on an opponent's assumption.
If you want good examples of Boxer's genius, then look to strategies that only work because of his micro. Look at strategies that other Terrans would have said "it's a good idea but I can't micro it." They're like bisu's GOMTV MSL S1 victory over savior where other toss would think "it could work but I can't multitask all that." Boxer has a ton of these and they're much more exciting than a fake rush.
I find winning through a strategy that depends on micro to be more uninteresting than a win which was dependent on mentally out-thinking the opponent and punishing his assumptions. Its a natural assumption for a boring mechanical player like Ruby to make, one who "plays by the book" so to speak. Its awesome to watch such players punished. The former is just a matter of handspeed and multitasking. The latter is a genius move mentally.
Even against world-class opponents such fakery and mental planning can sometimes give the small edge needed to close out the game.
NoNy is an excellent player and someone that knows the game really well. But when you mess with Boxer the whole starctraft community will go off on you.
Everything that boxer does has a meaning. Saying his play is boring is just so .....
On January 11 2008 03:01 InfesTeD]i[ wrote: NoNy is an excellent player and someone that knows the game really well. But when you mess with Boxer the whole starctraft community will go off on you.
Everything that boxer does has a meaning. Saying his play is boring is just so .....
Well, if i was watching this game live i would say this game would be on equally entertaining compared to NonY's described unbeatable strategy level of entertainment. Hope you know what i mean. I would be shouting pumping just like when i saw Boxer proxy barrack OOV in the Pimpest Plays 2006
On January 11 2008 03:01 InfesTeD]i[ wrote: NoNy is an excellent player and someone that knows the game really well. But when you mess with Boxer the whole starctraft community will go off on you.
Everything that boxer does has a meaning. Saying his play is boring is just so .....
Well, if i was watching this game live i would say this game would be on equally entertaining compared to NonY's described unbeatable strategy level of entertainment. Hope you know what i mean. I would be shouting pumping just like when i saw Boxer proxy barrack OOV in the Pimpest Plays 2006
I think what people is concerned about is that he called boxer's play boring and that we are glorifying it etc, thats the thing. But I totally get your point I also love it too. Why do you think Im a iloveoov fan? I just love how well he dominated everyone with his macro style. But boxer makes me jump out of my seat!
I just saw the game and finally got through reading your posts. In general finding something boring is a personal oppinion and cannot be argued with. So I dont want to discuss your opinion NoNy, I just have a different one:
I find it entertaining to watch anything that Boxer is coming up with. This might be because I am a little fanboy, but who cares. When I read this discussion I was thinking about his autobiography though. Crazy as me. In it he talks about the pressure on him to entertain and surprise the viewers. I personally think that this is a very important point to Boxer. Sure he is a great and innovative player, but some of his builds are risky and just for the sole purpose of Entertainment. I think that is what sepparates him from most of the other ProGamers: Boxer is not a machine, he thinks and does his mindgames, he wants to play his own style and still beat his opponent.
Sometimes this gets to him, he loses because of one of his little gimmicks. But most of the time he succeeds and all of the time it is clearly visible that he still enjoys playing. After all that Boxer has achieved, he has come back for the fun. Maybe today hes not Emperor anymore, more the "Entertainer"!
On January 11 2008 22:03 Sourdough wrote: I just saw the game and finally got through reading your posts. In general finding something boring is a personal oppinion and cannot be argued with. So I dont want to discuss your opinion NoNy, I just have a different one:
I find it entertaining to watch anything that Boxer is coming up with. This might be because I am a little fanboy, but who cares. When I read this discussion I was thinking about his autobiography though. Crazy as me. In it he talks about the pressure on him to entertain and surprise the viewers. I personally think that this is a very important point to Boxer. Sure he is a great and innovative player, but some of his builds are risky and just for the sole purpose of Entertainment. I think that is what sepparates him from most of the other ProGamers: Boxer is not a machine, he thinks and does his mindgames, he wants to play his own style and still beat his opponent.
Sometimes this gets to him, he loses because of one of his little gimmicks. But most of the time he succeeds and all of the time it is clearly visible that he still enjoys playing. After all that Boxer has achieved, he has come back for the fun. Maybe today hes not Emperor anymore, more the "Entertainer"!
You are right. If it isn't for Boxer performing the tricks and mind games, i absolutely don't know which terran player will do it. The same goes for Ra. If Ra wasn't the Magician, i don't who can. Don't think i can accept Stork as magician. Boxer is Boxer and i don't think anyone will replace him. And Ra will be missed when he retires too.
I think there's a difference between how people enjoy games based on how they view Starcraft. Most here just play it for fun. Nony might be a more serious gamer, and having been one myself I can understand why this game is less interesting than others in an "intrinsic properties of the game/maps" optic. Boxer's play is often risky and aside from his obviously good mechanics, his games rarely look like a planned-out war (which captures my interest more when I'm in "serious gaming" mode). You could say he has skill in guessing the way his opponents will react. You can say he's innovative. But it's very hard to relate to this type of skill if you're a serious gamer who spends much more time perfecting his timing/strategy/mechanics. On the other hand Boxer's play is flashy and exciting, which makes it appealing for people of all skill levels.
To put it another way, consider the average TvT, that most users here find boring and sleep-inducing. I happen to enjoy most tvt's that are played with strategical skill. This is because I play tvt in a serious manner (i.e. aiming to acquire skill in it, not capacity for entertaining) and have acquired the taste for its intricacies. If you haven't, then no doubt you'll be bored by conventional tvt's, because you'll probably be much less captivated by the details I'm used to considering and examining.
In this sense, Boxer's games are enjoyable for a greater audience than, say, iloveoov's. But then again, the approach to the game of those two players is different and will satisfy different tastes; and I think Boxer's games satisfy a taste that is much easier to acquire than that which finds satisfaction in oov's.
Still a cool game though. Makes you think about how viable building factories there is. It's probably quite viable if you're intending to play aggressively.
I think currently, there's a big backlash against the standard Lost Temple-style macro maps, and more and more of them are going to be replaced with maps that allow a lot more innovation on the part of build orders. Just see the two recent OSL maps, both of which are completely non-standard - one with potential for quirky tactics, the other with a short rush distances and an easily cliffable expo.
I think that instead of waning, we're going to see a lot more of Boxer & Co. with this upcoming map pool. So many players these days are trained to be macro machines, that most of them will have a lot of trouble with extended one-base play, and almost none of them can really innovate like the older players.
Even if the old-school can't keep up in present-day standard FE play, they definitely do know how to play non-standard.
Take for example, Oversky's Proxy Hatch vs. Tester, or that Ace 2v2 where they mined out their opponents back ramp mineral wall to win the game.
Even Clon - a horrible player in the late game, is still damn good when playing off 1-base, and ACE actually has a pretty consistent 2v2 team mostly because of his good early game feel.- for example, see his most recent game, where he basically took out both his opponents.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/225.jpg)
