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That's insane, thanks a lot for this!
On November 20 2025 22:05 RedW4rr10r wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2025 21:19 Kraekkling wrote:On November 20 2025 17:55 RedW4rr10r wrote:
Thanks for the work, definitely some interesting data. I took a look at the previous thread from two years ago first. Now I wanted to check out the statistics here, but none of the images are working on my end "[image loading]". Is it me or did the links to the images break or something? anyone else? could you link to the exact broken image? might need to switch to another image host if this persists... thanks I tried a different browser (Firefox at first, then Chrome) and none of the images work. But they work on mobile (iOS). Must be on my end then, especially when I seem to be the only one. I'll check it out on my phone then 
I had to turn off my "Nervenschoner" addon in firefox, which auto-rejects cookies and data collection where possible... Maybe you got something similar active in your browser that could hamper functionality of a website?
On November 20 2025 14:10 Soft_General_5023 wrote:
Thanks for the data analysis, very interesting.
On the highest player level group you created, MMR > 2400, the overall win rates are as follows, right?
PvT 46.25%
PVZ 47.46%
TvZ 55.73%
Tesagi confirmed.
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terran: easiest to win
protoss: easiest to play
zerg: manliest to play
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but it seems like vertical entrance natural expansion is MUCH better for protoss in pvz, compared to horizontal entrance. its a mostly consistent thing
Hydra bust is slightly less powerful when done vertically compared to horizontally. At least that's the idea why they designed all the entrances in Radeon like that.
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On November 20 2025 21:17 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Any terran player that could explain why Polypoid bottom right is such a good spawn for you ? I think top right and bottom left what they have in common is the same mineral lines. Sim City is different. Is it by being at the right side any beneficial with desense and mobility of your army any differento to the left side ?
Bottom right on poly has ling tight wall in nat available with marines spawning inside.
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On November 21 2025 03:59 WolFix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2025 21:17 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Any terran player that could explain why Polypoid bottom right is such a good spawn for you ? I think top right and bottom left what they have in common is the same mineral lines. Sim City is different. Is it by being at the right side any beneficial with desense and mobility of your army any differento to the left side ? Bottom right on poly has ling tight wall in nat available with marines spawning inside.
There has to be more to it to justify such a high WR on this spawn.
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to me it seems like usually there are several overlapping factors
there seems to be an overall left-vs-right spawn bias on 4-players maps, where its better to spawn on the right side
I think top right and bottom left what they have in common is the same mineral lines
one would think that, but the same mineral layout is not sufficient to guarantee the same mining rate. Its actually much more about pathfinding regions, which is basically a bunch of random bullshit.
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Do you mean that Litmus for example has different income rate ?
Terran is doing fantastic on Litmus with such mineral setup but i think the biggest factor is the third gaz. And the lack of terrain for protoss to attack terran. And well a 2 player map where protoss cant do their favorite strat of stealing gaz from the get go i imagine play a huge role aswell. But im unsure about the last.
But polypoid for example usually terran goes for the mineral Only. Maybe since is a very easy expo to defend could be also an issue for terran that is unable to punish it. and then terran can quickly take a 4.
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Do you mean that Litmus for example has different income rate ?
Yes, it can be. Even though the mineral formations are perfectly identical. It does not guarantee that workers will behave the same.
The reason are pathfinding regions, the yellow rectangles: + Show Spoiler +
These pathfinding regions determine which path a worker will take after it mined a patch of minerals.
You might remember how on older maps, workers used to do very weird stuff and have strange pathing. Today, they don't, because map makers spend a lot of time to make things look fluent. What map makers do is not to just place the minerals and be finished. Pathfinding regions are calculated by the game depending on the layout of walkable and unwalkable tiles by a very stupid and hard to control mechanism.
If you ever noticed "random" unwalkable tiles somewhere on the map, those were placed deliberately by the map maker to adjust the pathfinding region. On the Litmus pic above, on the right side, below the gas is a small yellow rectangle. This is an unwalkable tile that was deliberately put there by the map maker to adjust the pathfinding region around this spawn location.
But since this process of fixing pathfinding regions is both tedious and random, map makers usually stop when they were able to get rid of everything that looks bugged. This however does not guarantee that mining rates will be similar.
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United States12265 Posts
Seems like the image host died again.
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+ Show Spoiler [PvZ] +
Maybe do the win rate vs game duration of the top right and top left populations and see if there's a higher/lower peak of top right at some minutes and have a clue of where the extra wins come from?
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On November 21 2025 05:21 Kraekkling wrote:Yes, it can be. Even though the mineral formations are perfectly identical. It does not guarantee that workers will behave the same. The reason are pathfinding regions, the yellow rectangles: + Show Spoiler +These pathfinding regions determine which path a worker will take after it mined a patch of minerals. You might remember how on older maps, workers used to do very weird stuff and have strange pathing. Today, they don't, because map makers spend a lot of time to make things look fluent. What map makers do is not to just place the minerals and be finished. Pathfinding regions are calculated by the game depending on the layout of walkable and unwalkable tiles by a very stupid and hard to control mechanism. If you ever noticed "random" unwalkable tiles somewhere on the map, those were placed deliberately by the map maker to adjust the pathfinding region. On the Litmus pic above, on the right side, below the gas is a small yellow rectangle. This is an unwalkable tile that was deliberately put there by the map maker to adjust the pathfinding region around this spawn location. But since this process of fixing pathfinding regions is both tedious and random, map makers usually stop when they were able to get rid of everything that looks bugged. This however does not guarantee that mining rates will be similar.
That is so interesting. In fact this extremely strong WR on advantageous spawn could be getting also bonuses from spawns randomizers. For example how often is poylpoid bottom right getting vs top left or bottom left compared to top right ? For example on FS i remember more often than not when i was on top right i will see the overlord coming to my base easily 4 from 10 games LOL. I could be tweakin on this tho. But i think Spawn randomizer is a big factor. Hell back when i started BW i remember me and friends could predict opponent spawn cuz The lost temple version only had white color to be on only one spawn. xD
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On November 21 2025 06:24 TMNT wrote:+ Show Spoiler [PvZ] +Maybe do the win rate vs game duration of the top right and top left populations and see if there's a higher/lower peak of top right at some minutes and have a clue of where the extra wins come from?
seems like right side of the map benefits from better mining, while at the same time we have 2-zealot gaps at top right and bottom left compared to 3-zealot gaps in bottom right and top left.
As such, top right benefits the most, top left suffers the most.
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On November 21 2025 06:27 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2025 05:21 Kraekkling wrote:Do you mean that Litmus for example has different income rate ? Yes, it can be. Even though the mineral formations are perfectly identical. It does not guarantee that workers will behave the same. The reason are pathfinding regions, the yellow rectangles: + Show Spoiler +These pathfinding regions determine which path a worker will take after it mined a patch of minerals. You might remember how on older maps, workers used to do very weird stuff and have strange pathing. Today, they don't, because map makers spend a lot of time to make things look fluent. What map makers do is not to just place the minerals and be finished. Pathfinding regions are calculated by the game depending on the layout of walkable and unwalkable tiles by a very stupid and hard to control mechanism. If you ever noticed "random" unwalkable tiles somewhere on the map, those were placed deliberately by the map maker to adjust the pathfinding region. On the Litmus pic above, on the right side, below the gas is a small yellow rectangle. This is an unwalkable tile that was deliberately put there by the map maker to adjust the pathfinding region around this spawn location. But since this process of fixing pathfinding regions is both tedious and random, map makers usually stop when they were able to get rid of everything that looks bugged. This however does not guarantee that mining rates will be similar. That is so interesting. In fact this extremely strong WR on advantageous spawn could be getting also bonuses from spawns randomizers. For example how often is poylpoid bottom right getting vs top left or bottom left compared to top right ? For example on FS i remember more often than not when i was on top right i will see the overlord coming to my base easily 4 from 10 games LOL. I could be tweakin on this tho. But i think Spawn randomizer is a big factor. Hell back when i started BW i remember me and friends could predict opponent spawn cuz The lost temple version only had white color to be on only one spawn. xD
Back in the early days of remastered ladder, FS positions were locked to top left vs. top right, maybe that is affecting your statistical perception of the phenomenon? Or is this something that continues to this day?
I would be really surprised if (outside of anomalies like these) there is some bias for spawn locations on modern maps. Feels like progamers would sniff those out due to the sheer volume of games they play. Still, would be a great statistic to look at to determine any deviations from the expected norm, if possible @Kraekkling.
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the spawn randomizer works fine, the relevant stats are already included on the spawn-specific plots.
in the spawn-squares, look for the N = XXX number, which tells us how often players spawned there
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On November 21 2025 07:40 Kraekkling wrote:
the spawn randomizer works fine, the relevant stats are already included on the spawn-specific plots.
in the spawn-squares, look for the N = XXX number, which tells us how often players spawned there
Sorry that I missed this, but I guess the relevant question here is spawn pairs? If 50% of games are TL vs TR and the other 50% are BL vs BR, then the spawn squares would be balanced but exclude the majority of spawn interactions, just to provide an extreme example.
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@jealous no i remember this bug. What im talking about was more from iccup/fish days .
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Hio Kraekkling gj! maybe just i dont find there is number how many games will be end before 10 minutes in zvp ? and how many around 3-5 mins ? from 19365 games. i am just curious about this ( on high mmr )
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On November 21 2025 07:51 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
@jealous no i remember this bug. What im talking about was more from iccup/fish days .
Interesting, first I am hearing of it and I was very active back then so I feel like I would have noticed, but I was also a full-on scrub so maybe not Hopefully Kraekkling will be able to provide us with pair-wise analysis for the spawn locations. Could be interesting to break it down by year too, if possible, to test your hypothesis.
PS: Do want to say thanks to Kraekkling for the work done on both this post and the previous one (which I remember very well!). I don't want to seem like I'm always complaining or needy without showing appreciation as well.
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On November 20 2025 16:51 iopq wrote:
So we can see that cross spawn is overall balanced, close spawn is not quite. Why not just make more 3 player maps?
It would be a slightly longer distance than close, but shorter distance than cross.
I believe besides the fact 3p maps are incredibly difficult to make (fitting an equilateral triangle inside a square - like NEMEC mentioned in the past), ZvZ can also become luck-based, which may not be good for tournament play.
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On November 21 2025 17:32 Kanzzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2025 16:51 iopq wrote:
So we can see that cross spawn is overall balanced, close spawn is not quite. Why not just make more 3 player maps?
It would be a slightly longer distance than close, but shorter distance than cross. I believe besides the fact 3p maps are incredibly difficult to make (fitting an equilateral triangle inside a square - like NEMEC mentioned in the past), ZvZ can also become luck-based, which may not be good for tournament play.
they can bring back Apocalypse into the map pool. statistically it is the most balanced map together with Radeon. Apocalypse also produced a lot of very high quality entertaining matches.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/j9DyZfJS/patfind.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/KzxS1V37/qw33v9.png)
