These are the third and fourth commentaries I've released. The others were both ZvT, and are over a year old, so they're a little dated. I really planned to release more of these, but it takes awihle to actually play a good game, then think about what I want to say, and then get everything together and uploaded. Hopefully there will be more in the future, because I do enjoy doing them.
I truly do release these to try to help people. The person I'm playing is even offracing me, so it's really not 'look how good I am'. Further, I try to get games where both myself and my opponent don't play that well, to illustrate the changes you need to make to your game once you get behind. It doesn't really help anyone to release a VOD of a perfect play, because games rarely play out like that.
In the second game, I said "My opponent doesn't respect me" and it came out wrong, so I thought I should mention that. When you play someone of the same skill (or better), you should use your best build to try to get a win, be it a casual game or not. When you are playing someone worse, especially when offracing, you can use different builds to try to make the game better (closer, longer, more fun). So it's not like you don't respect the person in that you believe it's not possible for him to win, it's more that you don't care if you lose.
Any comments and criticism on the commentary or gameplay are greatly appreciated. My microphone wasn't setup properly in the first game, so you'll hear me fading in and out. Hopefully you can still hear what I'm saying.
Wow, I didn't even know about your previous commentaries. Watching now. I may show this to my friend, who's playing SC casually. Hopefully he'll get off using Protoss, since apparently everyone in my area has to use Protoss. (Btw I think that Longinus is pronounced lon-JIE-nus)
Even though I don't play zerg, these commentaries are well done and very helpful. I came out much smarter in this matchup than when I came in. Thanks Chill.
Thanks Chill, me being around the C- ranking you even pointed out that my skill level players don't really use scourge much and rush to ultralisk cavern too quickly. It helped a lot! Thanks
Hmm, the sound is very undulating in the first one, but I'll try to watch it later when I have time. I've been getting raped by Protoss fast +1 attacks in my last few games, on top of not having played for 2 weeks. -.- So I'll probably learn something important.
Um does anyone still have the link to the first two commentaries? If these two zvp commentaries are any indication of the quality I would definitely want to see the first two.
I just spent a delightful hour listening to your commentaries Chill. The game makes so much sense when someone explains it that well. There is a level of reason and common sense that I am so lacking when I play. I just make stuff. Having a reason to make it though, makes a lot more sense. Much thanks!
On December 10 2007 13:13 Manifesto7 wrote: I just spent a delightful hour listening to your commentaries Chill. The game makes so much sense when someone explains it that well. There is a level of reason and common sense that I am so lacking when I play. I just make stuff. Having a reason to make it though, makes a lot more sense. Much thanks!
That was my ZvP approach before watching the first FPVOD, make shit and pray :p
Amazing insight on ZvP! Incidentally, this will help a lot in my PvZ scheming, hohohohohohoho Thanks a lot Chill, don't stop making these!
Edit: Could you maybe do a commentary on a Python ZvP? (maybe with emphasis on what you are trying to prevent the Protoss from doing at particular timings)
On December 10 2007 10:33 Jyvblamo wrote: Wow, I didn't even know about your previous commentaries. Watching now. I may show this to my friend, who's playing SC casually. Hopefully he'll get off using Protoss, since apparently everyone in my area has to use Protoss. (Btw I think that Longinus is pronounced lon-JIE-nus)
Geez, people. Language is different in different places. Like, if someone talks with an accent, are you going to tell them they're speaking *wrong*? No, they're just talking how they talk. If someone talks differently than you, please get over it.
That said, indeed, very well done, Chill.. nice to listen to and very insightful.
Watched them both, enjoyed them both, and will definitely watch them again tomorrow morning since I watched them more for entertainment rather than learning the first time around.
On December 10 2007 17:23 f10esqftw wrote: Geez, people. Language is different in different places. Like, if someone talks with an accent, are you going to tell them they're speaking *wrong*? No, they're just talking how they talk. If someone talks differently than you, please get over it.
That said, indeed, very well done, Chill.. nice to listen to and very insightful.
haha, you're right! I live in edmonton, AB and could 100% tell he was from Alberta as well.! creepy stuff.
Besides that, great fpvods, I sent it to a friend of mine, who has tons of trouble zvp. It's gonna help him tons!
Very nice Chill, I especially liked how you focused on crisis management (which I think is the most important characteristic of a good player), but there were a few times I've felt you were slightly wrong with reasoning.
I will post them all when I rewatch the FPVs, but for now I only disagree with your comment on sunkens in the second game. I don't really think good players can go without them, sunkens are actually an awesome tool for disrupting timings. They can cover your ass from certain timing attacks (for example, a DT run when you don't have enough hydra to cover all your bases), ling/sunk is much preferable to pure ling when fighting zealot aggro, later on, sunks are very efficient in tandem with lurkers. Imo, it's not that a good player can get away with no sunks, he is more likely to use them in the right fashion.
nice commentary, your explanation makes alot of sense. Please do more of those in the future and perhaps give some information on the players whom you are playing against.
On December 10 2007 18:08 thedeadhaji wrote: Watched them both, enjoyed them both, and will definitely watch them again tomorrow morning since I watched them more for entertainment rather than learning the first time around.
Chill, wanna pvz me bo5 tomorrow?
Sure! Just don't be like Dave[9], where I taught him my ZvT build and then that's all he ever does so I can exploit him so ezezez.
I love you David the ninth.
To clarify, it's not like when I (or pretty much anyone, for that matter) am playing I'm thinking of all the stuff I said in the commentary. The key is to understand this stuff when you're not playing the game, so it becomes second nature and you don't have to consciously think about it when you're playing.
To answer the other questions: -Yes I use Camtasia for recording. Audacity for audio. Windows Movie Maker to stitch them together. -I use Google Video because there's no limit on file size, so I don't have to break the files up. I don't know why Google Video "sucks"...
I really enjoyed it. It addresses issues that has always troubled me, and its good to know more about. Like what you said about Tau Cross, that its hard to use the map to your advantage, I had never thought of it this way, but its so true. The thing about the timing of the carapace upgrade too was new too, really good to know about. I dont even play zerg, but I love learning those things ^^
One thing I didnt understand, you said when the protoss researches his +1 attack he will pressure you, and in this case you let the zergling take the hit while the sunken does the damage. Shouldnt it be the other way around? Sunken taking the hits and the zergling on the back doing the damage on the zealots? Specially if the carapace researche is not yet completed.
Again thanks a bunch for those videos. I hope you will have time to make more. They are really useful, and entertaining =)
On December 11 2007 09:10 Leath wrote: One thing I didnt understand, you said when the protoss researches his +1 attack he will pressure you, and in this case you let the zergling take the hit while the sunken does the damage. Shouldnt it be the other way around? Sunken taking the hits and the zergling on the back doing the damage on the zealots? Specially if the carapace researche is not yet completed.
Yea... It's not as simple as I made it sound. Yes, ideally you would want him to run in targetting the Sunken, and then your Zerglings come in and clean up. That rarely happens though. Unless you have massive amounts of Zerglings, you need that Sunken to stay alive. If you let him run in and target it, he will kill it really quickly, and then will have many +1 Zealots fighting your Zerglings in a choke - you want to avoid that. Ideally you would bait him into engaging you outside of the choke where the Sunken can still hit. This way you get all your Zerglings fighting at once, backed up by Sunken fire, so in this way the Sunken is dealing most of the damage and the Zerglings are dying really quickly to keep it alive until your Carapace finishes.
If you have enough Zerglings and your Sunken isn't in a choke, by all means let him engage the Sunken and then surround him. If you don't have enough Zerglings to do that, use the Zerglings as a buffer between you and the Sunken.
I guess it depends on unit counts and Sunken positioning, but I've found letting the Sunken take the hits ends in disaster with my play style.
On December 12 2007 00:54 BluzMan wrote: Sometimes losing an evo can be critical though.
Well allow me to clarify that I don't suggest putting it out there to die. I suggest putting it out there to cover the sunken and to stay alive while doing it.
On December 12 2007 01:10 liosama wrote: dumb question, are you actually playing while commentating? or di dyou play first hten re-commentate on yourself.
If its the first case, then how the hell can you play while talking :o
No I recorded it first and then commented afterwards. I can (and have) play while talking though, I think most people can after they get to the point of the game being mostly repetition.
Question about going against 2 gate. I forgot which guide it was, but the OP said that you want a 3:1 ratio of ling/zeal. Buut if you have 2-3 sunks in ur nat (i'm talking about maps like longinus/lt/python) is it ok to go 2:1 ? orr is 3:1 like the minimum? Because when I play vs 2 gate I don't know when to stop switching from building lings to switching back to eco. Either I build too many lings or I don't build enough.
I don't think that's the entire truth, though I have no ratio to come up with in exchange. The larger army you have, the less you are going to lose during the battle, and the more you can use during your next battle which means you can make more drones later on. If you for example make 10 extra lings before a battle you might be able to make 7 extra drones afterwards - if you'd exchanged the orginal 10 lings for drones there would only have been 5 of em, so you've gained 2 drones by making extra lings before a battle, even though you wouldn't have lost it in either scenario. That extra army surviving the battle could also be used to scare him - or if you're lucky - kill him.
Now of course a drone now is better than a drone later, so fewer drones earlier could be more efficient than more drones later - but it must not.
I am getting a "this video may not be available" error when I go to the links. Is there something up with the video, or is google/me/my computer doing something wrong?
On December 13 2007 01:26 Chill wrote: Not sure, I just checked the links and they work fine.
Don't listen to the ZvT commentaries, they're out of date. I'll make a new one soon (with 9 months).
the 2nd 1 works fine, but the first 1 hasn't worked for alittle while (it worked the 1st time i came into thte thread), google video says the video isnt available for some reason. Would appreciate it if fixed.
i finally went and watched these commentaries. i like them a lot a lot =D
i have a small question - given that you and apparently most zergs are so committed to the +1 carapace so early, is it worthwhile for P instead to research +1 armor first, since a +1 weapon advantage is increasingly hard to come by?
1) Not every Zerg commits to quick Carapace, and against no upgrades, your attack upgrade will be much better than the armour upgrade.
2) It will delay your +3. If you get nonstop upgrades, there comes a time where Zerg has to wait to get Hive before he can get his third Carapace, and in that time you would much rather be 0-0-3 than 0-1-2.
I made an account just to say this really helped a lot, and thanks a bunch! (I will hopefully be posting elsewhere...) Seriously though, hopefully the ZvT (and ZvZ?) will come before SC2 comes out....
wow u the man chill. aside from savior and some other pros, u are my most respected zerg brother!!
a question though, how come i rarely see early carapace in recent pro zvp games, everyone is going 3 hatch lair with the exception of july, i don't understand the difference in logic between fast carapace and fast tech, how come most pros prefer the later? can u explain it to me?
Chill, you said in the "play me for commentaries" thread that you'd record and then release them all at once. If you do a torrent instead of google video, could you try to make them fairly high quality so you can see your recources? That'd be really sweet!
very nice but 5hatch without army...I'd be scared of that Don't have very fast fingers so can't rely on them to get me out of trouble if p comes with zelots...
On January 05 2008 16:48 w3jjjj wrote: wow u the man chill. aside from savior and some other pros, u are my most respected zerg brother!!
a question though, how come i rarely see early carapace in recent pro zvp games, everyone is going 3 hatch lair with the exception of july, i don't understand the difference in logic between fast carapace and fast tech, how come most pros prefer the later? can u explain it to me?
Well the trend in progaming is Bisu build for Protoss, which gets a later +1. As a result, Zergs are using quicker tech and foregoing Carapace to deal with Corsairs. Amateurs can't do the Bisu build properly, so you can get Carapace (to deal with possible +1) AND fight off Corsairs if he did Bisu (or some bastardization of it).
Two ZvT videos are up. Thanks for everyone who showed up to play me for the commentaries.
Edit: I'm moving this out of Featured. If it was just a one-time thing then it makes sense to be in the Featured Threads, but if I'm going to be updating it, then it doesn't.
nice vods, i like the defiler advice. i would always wait for the best possible time and end up getting my defilers raped :| edit: why not just throw down some written commentary for the games that you mentioned that you wanted to talk about but didnt end up recording?
By the way, the ZvP and ZvT vods are really useful, although you seem to play a really-macro heavy, risky build that I always seem to die in when I try it. You should post a couple aggressive/rush type builds, or maybe something that teaches you how to fight the allways annoying bunker/scv rush, or a 3-gate protoss all-in.
Excellent stuff Chill. I've recently been trying to learn ZvT and ZvP for fun and these commenteries are uber useful for me. Nice use of magical boxes in the longinus vid with that triple swarm :D (which was hopefully an intended action)
Yeah, thumbs up for your commentaries. I'm not a Zerg user, but it's really interesting to see, how your enemy is thinking and this way I can find out how to time my attacks. Thank you once again.
On January 06 2008 07:10 d1v wrote: Yeah, thumbs up for your commentaries. I'm not a Zerg user, but it's really interesting to see, how your enemy is thinking and this way I can find out how to time my attacks. Thank you once again.
On January 03 2008 10:56 Chill wrote: I'd say no, for two reasons:
1) Not every Zerg commits to quick Carapace, and against no upgrades, your attack upgrade will be much better than the armour upgrade.
2) It will delay your +3. If you get nonstop upgrades, there comes a time where Zerg has to wait to get Hive before he can get his third Carapace, and in that time you would much rather be 0-0-3 than 0-1-2.
Artosis and ToT)Cloud might disagree with you here - Check out Game 2 of Group 3 of Ascension, Cloud versus Mondragon. Cloud scouted an early evo by Mondragon and took out his third with a +1 armor speedlot rush. I'd agree that if you don't specifically see a fast evo chamber it's probably not worthwhile, though.
On January 06 2008 07:10 d1v wrote: Yeah, thumbs up for your commentaries. I'm not a Zerg user, but it's really interesting to see, how your enemy is thinking and this way I can find out how to time my attacks. Thank you once again.
We've been infiltrated!
Yes, but you're save for now, since I lack the mechanical ability to take down someone of Chill's calibre. Btw, Chill, if you're reading this, what APM do you and your opponents average? I can't use BWChart, I'm stuck on a Mac atm.
EDIT: Nvm, just found out you're averaging about 200 APM. Really, I was very impressed how you managed to keep everything under control and dictate the game although you're not quite what I'd call a high-APMer. Your Terran opponent on Tau Cross averaged 320 APM and still you beat him. This shows, that above a certain level of APM, strategy and game decision are much more important than speed.
On January 06 2008 07:52 d1v wrote: Btw, Chill, if you're reading this, what APM do you and your opponents average? I can't use BWChart, I'm stuck on a Mac atm.
If you just want to check APM, you can use this RepASM demo site. It lets you send a replay file and will analyze it for starting positions and APM of the players in the replay. Certainly no replacement for BW chart, but I use it when I'm curious how fast my opponent in a game was.
Awesome commentaries, learned a lot. The thing that is weird is that while the video buffers and I watch, there are no skips, but once the video is completed buffering and I watch, there are skips. I watched the 2 terran and the first protoss game, I will watch the second toss one soon. Is there a way you could upload these so we can download? I'll probably watch these quite a bit, so I'd rather download it and watch it multiple times instead of buffer with my shitty connection.
Not sure if your second toss game has this, but could you do commentary where somebody does a 'bisu build'. Thanks Chill, you rock!
On January 06 2008 07:52 d1v wrote: Btw, Chill, if you're reading this, what APM do you and your opponents average? I can't use BWChart, I'm stuck on a Mac atm.
If you just want to check APM, you can use this RepASM demo site. It lets you send a replay file and will analyze it for starting positions and APM of the players in the replay. Certainly no replacement for BW chart, but I use it when I'm curious how fast my opponent in a game was.
On January 06 2008 11:12 IaniAniaN wrote: That won't work because he's on a mac.
Yes it will, if you actually look at the link, it's a web interface for a demo of certain features of RepASM, which includes APM calculation. It works perfectly fine through Firefox on OS 10.4.11 for me.
On January 06 2008 11:12 IaniAniaN wrote: That won't work because he's on a mac.
Yes it will, if you actually look at the link, it's a web interface for a demo of certain features of RepASM, which includes APM calculation. It works perfectly fine through Firefox on OS 10.4.11 for me.
Oh, I though you gave him a link to the RepASM that ran in explorer in windows, my bad.
I think your opening is totally off. You make a very early fourth hatchery and should be able to get a fucking great econ; yet your econ sucks badly. You have 12 drones on minerals in your nat and main together when your spire finnishes and it take ages before you can afford taking your third gas, though I'd still say you'd been better off taking it earlier anyway
I also think you should have pointed out how extremely important it is to do proper attacks: flanking and everything arriving at the same time and so on. But while you were doing a very bad attack - which would have costed you the game vs a better opponent - you were talking about different approaches to the mid game.
Chill: I don't know if you ever used Chessmaster, but they have a special feature with Josh Waitzkin where he comments on some of his games and discusses what he's thinking at each stage. It's kind of a lot like your commentary and your voice sounds a good deal like Josh Waitzkin's as well =D
Regarding your discussion of Day's article in your ZvT commentary on Longinus, Waitzkin actually mentions in one of his commentaries the nature of advantages and how to push them - there's a good analogy to be made to BW here. Players like Capablanca excelled not at obtaining small advantages and winning with them, but instead trading their advantage for a slightly larger one, increasing the pressure on and on, etc. That's the goal, I think, in Starcraft, with the added benefit that it's easy to trade into an economic or tech advantage which guarantees you an even larger advantage later. So for example, after a successful 2 gate PvZ push that wrecks the Zerg, one doesn't need to attack immediately to end the game, but instead just trade the military advantage for an economic one - expanding, knowing that Zerg won't have the forces to crack through that expansion before it kicks in. Or alternatively, tech quickly to sair knowing that Zerg can't respond to it without upgraded hydralisks which he can't afford.
On January 06 2008 19:40 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Blue Storm game:
I think your opening is totally off. You make a very early fourth hatchery and should be able to get a fucking great econ; yet your econ sucks badly. You have 12 drones on minerals in your nat and main together when your spire finnishes and it take ages before you can afford taking your third gas, though I'd still say you'd been better off taking it earlier anyway
I also think you should have pointed out how extremely important it is to do proper attacks: flanking and everything arriving at the same time and so on. But while you were doing a very bad attack - which would have costed you the game vs a better opponent - you were talking about different approaches to the mid game.
Fair enough. I'm not claiming to be good in any manner, so there are plenty of things I can discuss in theory that I can't actually put into practice. These are also meant to be watched in a series, so if I don't talk about proper execution in this one, it will eventually be talked about in a future commentary. I actually have written out the points I want to touch on and I try to get out the most important / interesting for each commentary. I think every Zerg knows flanking is important so I'm not sure why you're giving me shit for not emphasizing that, especially when you've only listened to one commentary.
On January 07 2008 00:38 GrandInquisitor wrote: Chill: I don't know if you ever used Chessmaster, but they have a special feature with Josh Waitzkin where he comments on some of his games and discusses what he's thinking at each stage. It's kind of a lot like your commentary and your voice sounds a good deal like Josh Waitzkin's as well =D
Regarding your discussion of Day's article in your ZvT commentary on Longinus, Waitzkin actually mentions in one of his commentaries the nature of advantages and how to push them - there's a good analogy to be made to BW here. Players like Capablanca excelled not at obtaining small advantages and winning with them, but instead trading their advantage for a slightly larger one, increasing the pressure on and on, etc. That's the goal, I think, in Starcraft, with the added benefit that it's easy to trade into an economic or tech advantage which guarantees you an even larger advantage later. So for example, after a successful 2 gate PvZ push that wrecks the Zerg, one doesn't need to attack immediately to end the game, but instead just trade the military advantage for an economic one - expanding, knowing that Zerg won't have the forces to crack through that expansion before it kicks in. Or alternatively, tech quickly to sair knowing that Zerg can't respond to it without upgraded hydralisks which he can't afford.
I've only ever pirated Chessmaster and it didn't have the commentary option which made me really sad. But Searching for Bobby Fischer is one of my favourite movies, and a couple of years ago I spent a lot of time reading about Waitzkin.
Yea, I didn't get everything out that I wanted to about pressing the advantage in that recording, so I'll have to revisit it in another one. I think all the points you brought up are good ones, specifically that you want to transition your advantage from one area to another. I think there are three areas in StarCraft: Tech, economy (which we can group production capability with), and army size. Typically you have to sacrifice at least one, but more often two. How you transition after that is very important, and is dictated by both the situations in the game as well as your personal skills and preference. When people refer to 'timing', it's often knowing when to switch between these areas - When to have your army's size maximized to take advantage of your opponents' switch. It's pretty interesting and something that needs further discussion.
chill i have a question about that longinus game, how did you spread the swarm on those defilers like that i didn't see you clone or anything like that however the swarm was situated how those defilers seemed to be grouped. How do you do that?
On January 07 2008 05:30 garoth wrote: chill i have a question about that longinus game, how did you spread the swarm on those defilers like that i didn't see you clone or anything like that however the swarm was situated how those defilers seemed to be grouped. How do you do that?
That was actually a mistake. When I checked the Defilers, they had around 90 energy, and one had 190. I told the group to throw a swarm (3 Defilers) because I assumed the other two would not have 100 energy yet, but they did =x
It's just magic boxes: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=33677 If your Defilers are close enough together, they throw the Swarms relative to where they are. So you can set them up in formation and then they will cast Swarms in that formation. If you spread them too far though (as explained in that above link) they will all cast Swarm on top on a single point.
Ah thanks for explaining it chill, I appreciate the help, as a newb zerg user these are really useful for people that are just starting out again thanks alot.
I think I might need to remake my magic box thread to make it more clear, and also do a bit of research. Does anyone notice that for clumping mutas together the best thing to do is move diagonally? It seems that when I move them vertically or horizontally the magic box concept predicts the mutas should clump, but they don't really clump up. In contrast when I move diagonally they clump up really tight (this is all with an overlord hotkeyed of course). Anyone got an explanation?
Chill: Why would you say the ZvT commentaries are outdated? I liked them, especially the longinus one (aside from the terran losing a ton of units to swarm somewhat needlessly).
in the tau cross zvp, you mentioned you thought he was getting fast assim for +1 weapons, and then you realized it was for tech when you spotted the cyber core. Since you never got to see his tech as far as I could tell (goon killed OL before it could see?), why didn't you put down any protection against sairs? without a den or at least a creep colony (to morph), he could have probably gotten a bunch OL kills if he'd gone sairs, no?
edit: double checked, and the last building you saw was a forge before you were chased off. was that indicative?
very nice commentaries. I was interested to hear you were going to show savior's 9 pool -> 3 hatch build only to have you DISAPPOINT me. But yeah if I had one request for other commentaries it would be 9 pool or 2 hatch or some other builds.
On January 09 2008 06:13 Payt wrote: Chill: Why would you say the ZvT commentaries are outdated? I liked them, especially the longinus one (aside from the terran losing a ton of units to swarm somewhat needlessly).
in the tau cross zvp, you mentioned you thought he was getting fast assim for +1 weapons, and then you realized it was for tech when you spotted the cyber core. Since you never got to see his tech as far as I could tell (goon killed OL before it could see?), why didn't you put down any protection against sairs? without a den or at least a creep colony (to morph), he could have probably gotten a bunch OL kills if he'd gone sairs, no?
edit: double checked, and the last building you saw was a forge before you were chased off. was that indicative?
very nice commentaries. I was interested to hear you were going to show savior's 9 pool -> 3 hatch build only to have you DISAPPOINT me. But yeah if I had one request for other commentaries it would be 9 pool or 2 hatch or some other builds.
I was talking about my other ZvT commentaries (not in this thread) which are over a year old. They focus on HydraLurker Lair play, which doesn't work nowadays.
Two things: Tau Cross is such a macro map that I'm always thinking a Protoss player wants to FE on it. Even if he's showing tech, it's so easy for me to grab 3 bases that if I start losing Overlords to a Corsair I will probably still be ahead.
And yes, seeing a Forge knid of validates my thoughts. If he is doing some one base tech and has invested in Cannons, it should be late enough that simply attack moving a bunch of low tier units should handle it and let me end up ahead.
I just watched the first two videos and im stunned. I learnd more, or lets say totaly crazy different, things from watching than from reading innumerable threads in the strategy section.
My i propose to include this in the Recommended Threads ?
Your VODS have improved my game tremendously i love you please make a ZvZ and mabye some more Zvt your ZvP guide has put me on a ZvP rampage!!!! I LOVE you Chill =)
Wow great ZvT cool little tips, you've got very nice defiler usage. My biggest problem was using lurkers but you showed a couple of nice tricks to keep them alive :D Now I can finally stop using mutalisk based builds (2 hatch ) Thanks! Can't wait for more Chill :D
If you don't reveal your overlord does that give you enough time to respond to a BSB (or BBS) rush? I would think that even if you went over to check the barracks count (which you didn't, in this video) your knowledge of his barracks timing would be insufficient thus making a bunker rush more effective. I don't play zerg or anything, but I was just wondering.
No, but it's not any less time than if he was BBS'ing from the center or three. If you're that worried, reveal your Overlord and 9 Drone scout every game.
What are your thoughts regarding hotkeying defilers separately vs. hotkeying them with other units? I find it's easier because, if they're on their own, you can't 5a6a7a8a9a0a because they don't have the attack move option, but with hydras/lings/etc. you can do it without a problem.
On May 30 2008 07:35 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: What are your thoughts regarding hotkeying defilers separately vs. hotkeying them with other units? I find it's easier because, if they're on their own, you can't 5a6a7a8a9a0a because they don't have the attack move option, but with hydras/lings/etc. you can do it without a problem.
I do both. That way I don't forget my defilers and I have the spells on a hotkey.
I love your commentaries so much Chill! Please... more!
Great great work. Puts a lot of things in perspective for average players.
One thing I noticed is that you don't resupply your main with drones after building your tech / hatcheries, and at the end of the game you had about 4 drones on minerals there.
Obviously in that game it wasn't necessary, but is that a conscious decision or would you normally refill it with a cycle of larvae at some point?
haha i love your fpvods. i don't even play zerg but i still really like to watch them. espeically the tvz ones, it gives me a much better grasp on that mu (my worst by far)
On May 30 2008 12:13 Manifesto7 wrote: Great great work. Puts a lot of things in perspective for average players.
One thing I noticed is that you don't resupply your main with drones after building your tech / hatcheries, and at the end of the game you had about 4 drones on minerals there.
Obviously in that game it wasn't necessary, but is that a conscious decision or would you normally refill it with a cycle of larvae at some point?
I rarely refill my main either after making buildings... habit I guess, it doesn't have too much impact when you've got so many bases afterwards (if you're in such a nice position as Chill was, at least)
On May 30 2008 12:13 Manifesto7 wrote: Great great work. Puts a lot of things in perspective for average players.
One thing I noticed is that you don't resupply your main with drones after building your tech / hatcheries, and at the end of the game you had about 4 drones on minerals there.
Obviously in that game it wasn't necessary, but is that a conscious decision or would you normally refill it with a cycle of larvae at some point?
Terrible habit. I use my main bases for production and expansions for Drones. If you were good you would be able to cycle between the two properly.
I also noticed you don't sAviOr-style rally your hatches to your third and pump drones while muta harassing, but rather just make drones at the expansion itself. Is this just personal preference?
On June 01 2008 11:54 JIJI wrote: Excellent stuff Chill. Learned a lot from it. If you have any replays of you being dropped and how you handle them, it would be nice.
On June 01 2008 11:54 JIJI wrote: Excellent stuff Chill. Learned a lot from it. If you have any replays of you being dropped and how you handle them, it would be nice.
First post has a lot of replays. ;o
I was only looking at the commentaries..........doh XD I find commentaries more informative though because they give tactical reasoning and such. I'll check out the replays though.
I really appreciated these FPVODs for their quality of play as well as Chill's discussion and thoughts on the various matches. I was comparing these matches to some of the top rated players over at BW:USA and it got me wondering about these comparison of the supposed skill level of the players there versus Chill here, for example. I have played SC off and on, rarely competitively, and yet after just starting practicing and training I find that the play level demonstrated by a lot the non-Korean pros to be with my realm of skill (it's a big realm, I don't mean that I'd win even a quarter of the time, just that I could see myself competing and possibly pulling out wins here and there vs. some of these people).
I ask about the relative levels because, after watching games by Machine, LzGamer, and some other of the BW:USA people, I find that Chill's macro and overall play to be better than a number of the games I've watched. Also, what is the deal with the grades of players that people seem to throw around. I've yet to find a definitive guide as to what makes a C player vs. a B player vs. an A one.
Lastly, does anyone know where i can find quality ZvZ games? That match seems like the most skill intensive of the three due to the obvious symmetry. Any chance of getting a Chill-umentary out on the match-up?
Welcome to TL.net oneCrash! Chill, I believe if I recall correctly, said that he was not going to make ZvZ FPVods. I don't know if he even plays it or rather plays PvZ instead of ZvZ which seems something very common nowadays. The ranks are basically denoted by iCCup (which is a ladder). C rank is basically 3,000 points to 5,000 points, B rank is 5,000 points to 7,000 points and A rank is 7,000+ (I think I got that right). You get points by winning against enemies but you lose points when you lose, so that's where people get these ranks from.
Machine and LzGamer both qualified for TSL (if you don't know what that is, check the right side of TL.net and you should see a forum called TSL. In theory they should have great macro but it depends, maybe they just had superior game decision making.
I like it tough I play pretty much identical strategically except but have horrible macro/management, and the fact that i generally spend way more of my minerals on zerglings and less on new expansions. What do you want to accomplish with the mass expo, and do you play this way also when you are in a less commanding position? If the first, seeing a game were you didn't dominate as much would probably have been better. Also tough off topic your ZvT seems a lot better than before, and you're good at building scourges which is so damn easy to forget. Good job.
Interesting. No, I checked out the TSL and all that good stuff. Chill's macro, build orders, and etc. are korean-esque in the way it maximizes the resources available at any given time. My real disbelief with the ranking is, in watching games of high ranking players who will remain anonymous, I saw them cap out, having forgot their 3rd or 4th ovie, place down 6 sunkens against a crap dozen marine, three medic force, put down pools at like 240, hatches at about 350, forget to go to lair despite having 200+ gas and then not immediately lingspeeding with the leftover, or let a drone get killed be a scouting prove/scv. The biggest thing is that I see their mineral and gas count get higher and higher and higher and yet these players aren't building structures or units.
Furthermore, I am at a loss as to the reason to Overpool (or several strange 11 pool, 10 hatch builds I've seen) as opposed to 9 pool or even 12 pool. I figured that Chill or someone else might have some light on to that. A 9 pool can put out 6 glings by 2:18 and have speed by 3:10, which outright races many of the Bisu variations of toss and can compete with the double gateway openings you see often as the glings, on most maps if you scouted correctly, will be at the front door of the base by 3:00 even on longer maps and in 10 seconds have upgrades. Terran has 2-3 marines by this point, assuming they double rax'd. God forbid they tried some crazy tech or fast expand, then it would probably be game.
So what is the logic behind the Overpool? What does it offer that makes up for the 20-30 delay on glings? I think the 3 hatch is the right against most Terrans and even Toss, if you are careful.
Overpool is generally used either in ZvP or ZvZ, not really in ZvT. What's good about it? The purpose of the zerglings and the timings at which they arrive is not very different - whether you 9 pooled or 9 overpooled, the time your lings get there the toss will have 2 cannons regardless. 9 overpool allows you to get 2 more drones than a 9 pool, allowing you to not take such a heavy blow to economy. As well, overpool allows you to go through multiple paths - one is to kill cannons (not used so much), other is to run past cannons and go into main, and third is just make 4-6 lings to deny scouting while you do some cool tech route or macro up like a macro beast. Overpool is a much better choice because with 9 pool, you are forced to do damage otherwise you are behind. Overpool doesn't get your economy so behind and gives you many options.
I suggest you watch some mondragon replays to see why overpool is so good. (particularly on blue storm)
On July 02 2008 15:24 Rambling. wrote: I was wondering if theres something similar to this except sub in protoss for zerg, any1 know where I can see some good FPVOD of Toss in action?
Hmmmm Nony has some floating around here somewhere... I found them on the tracker some time ago... Try searching for Nony's blog
On July 27 2008 00:32 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: Muta micro with "H" ? I always used 'a' till now O-O
well, I would say it depends more on what your using it for... like you probably use "A" and target specific units right?? See I prefer right click for that....
when you use hold position, you don't target specific units, you just hit it and let the mutas auto-target.... and he's right it is a lot more effective if you have a large group of mutas and your fighting a group of M&M (you really should try it if you haven't) .. although I find it hard to use hold position in high latency games... I would only reccomend it on LAN or low latency...
On July 27 2008 00:32 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: Muta micro with "H" ? I always used 'a' till now O-O
well, I would say it depends more on what your using it for... like you probably use "A" and target specific units right?? See I prefer right click for that....
The problem with right-click is if you misclick your Mutalisks fly right into whatever you were trying to kill.
On July 27 2008 00:32 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: Muta micro with "H" ? I always used 'a' till now O-O
well, I would say it depends more on what your using it for... like you probably use "A" and target specific units right?? See I prefer right click for that....
The problem with right-click is if you misclick your Mutalisks fly right into whatever you were trying to kill.
If you a move and misclick your Mutalisks fly in anyways. Just don't misclick
On July 27 2008 00:32 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: Muta micro with "H" ? I always used 'a' till now O-O
well, I would say it depends more on what your using it for... like you probably use "A" and target specific units right?? See I prefer right click for that....
The problem with right-click is if you misclick your Mutalisks fly right into whatever you were trying to kill.
If you a move and misclick your Mutalisks fly in anyways. Just don't misclick
I thought they flew into attack range and stopped there, but they don't try to fly right through the group like if you'd right-clicked the ground in the middle of it. :p
GO CHILL I BELIEVE IN YOU, GREAT TEACHER OF THE ZERG RACE!
Can't wait for the next FPVod!!! I recorded like 10 FPVods too last weekend but most of them were completely 1 sided rapes or just bad games... i don't like how camtasia often lags me on iccup T_T out of like 30 recordings i only made 1 fpvod and i was only 50% satisfied with it. gogogo chill! (did ahzz inspire you to start again? just wondering)
No I've been getting random PMs from people, plus I haven't really done anything for TL in awhile.
Use Guncam. Seriously. Once you get it set up, it's unbelievable. The website looks like a piece of shit and so does the program, but it works gloriously!
One question : In the first vod (python) why would the contained protoss engage with his zealots and dragoons in front ?? I mean, would'nt it be way more effective to just cast some storms on your stuff, (scourge, lings, over, anything), to drag them in ?
I don't understand why this guy just seemed to play it your way, by empaling himself on your lurks every time, and did not storm-pulled you inside his own army.
Besides this particular point, good VODS, good voice, good insight, so thanks ^^
These new fpvods are very insightful. No disrespect to any of the other commentators out there but I wish I could hear this depth of commentary on pro games.
On September 23 2008 13:31 Terranator wrote: These new fpvods are very insightful. No disrespect to any of the other commentators out there but I wish I could hear this depth of commentary on pro games.
Yes unfortunately chill hasn't presued casting as much as others. His game knowledge is razor sharp. Dimago must be his favorite zerg also
Keep it up chill, I like to sit back and watch these.
I have a question though. Of course we all know it is important to mine the closest minerals first. However, you made it sound really complicated when you tried to explain which ones to go for first. We simply want to mine the patches that look like they physically have the shortest distance to your hatchery, right? It's nothing more complicated than this, I hope.
Anyway, loving your work. Looking forward to seeing more in the future.
In game one at python (from your 22nd september update).. as soon as you get your containment, is there anything the protoss can do? It seems like a game ender from there.
Im a P player, but im trying to understand the ZvP aspect aswell as the PvZ aspect to improve my game =]
Also, another question. If you open lurkers zvp, lets say on python, how do you stop protoss from simply running up your ramp during a +1 rush? My lurkers come out in time, but my opponent's zealots just run by the lurkers. I've tried blocking the ramp with lings, but not with much success.
On October 21 2008 03:12 onihunter wrote: Also, another question. If you open lurkers zvp, lets say on python, how do you stop protoss from simply running up your ramp during a +1 rush? My lurkers come out in time, but my opponent's zealots just run by the lurkers. I've tried blocking the ramp with lings, but not with much success.
I find I can simplify the game in my mind to "if I live this +1 attack I'm ahead", since the tech advantage you have is vastly superior to his upgrade advantage. Lurkers usually don't come out in time so use Zerglings and Sunken Colonies to survive the inital attack. As Ret said, you have to come as close to dying as possible. That means if you invest too much money in defenses, he can simply not attack and you've squandered your advantage. Walk as close to the cliff as you can without going over.
Have you ever encountered a +1 weapons into sair reav (instead of zeals). If the goon kills the main ov, and you don't see which way they teched, and you see the forge spinning, will you continue assuming +1 rush or will you sacrifice lings to count zeals or something? And if you assume zeal rush and get mutalisks or fast lurk, wouldn't the sair reav rape you?
~ asking for a friend who got raped by +1 into sairreav
EPT
