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On January 31 2025 02:42 Kraekkling wrote:
Let's assume that SK is the current best player and set his power rating at 100. Further let's say the current top 10 players have an average rating of 95.
I think it's clear that the level of games we see today is overall higher than what we saw in the past.
If anything, you should put Flash at 100 and the top 10 players at around 70. It was obvious when Flash played that the level is way lower today since he could roll over people like nothing. The motivation to compete and be the best isn't there anymore, people would rather be big and funny streamers, and there's not much new blood.
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Winning in the present requires a lot of knowledge of previous and current metas. The most complex play is now, and that is just a fact of reality. This game hasn't had balance patches since 2001. Young players attempt to qualify in the SSL every season, and some make it to round of 24. These young players can be skill checked with builds they didn't experience when they were meta. Soulkey is the best zerg of this era.
Young players must practice extreme hours to catch up. Meanwhile we had players that were dominate when players did practice extreme hours. There were also hundreds of players competing at that time. JD was the best zerg in the most competitive era, that didn't have 2 decades of meta. JD had incredible mechanics that most could not compete against.
We have the Knowledge era vs the Competitive era.
I will have to give GOAT to JD, because there were more people trying to be the best then. People were also practicing longer. We still need to give Soulkey a nod for competing in an era where you need to have put the time in, and have a lot of knowledge to succeed. If somehow this game had its competitive base restored to KeSPA era, I believe a young player that practices 13 hours a day would be the best instead. While JD was that player.
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On January 30 2025 19:15 Highgamer wrote:I think JD would definitelly be my pick for the COAT, the cutest of all time. + Show Spoiler +Sorry, Bisu stans. Not even close.
Agree 100 % 
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JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too!
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On January 31 2025 23:22 Souden wrote:
JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too!
All great, but there are also many streams were pros (incl Flash) explain that in StarCraft the nr. 1 skill that is most impactful on win rate is... decision making. So all these flashy moves are important, but not making JD a better overall player. Maybe in ZvZ, but that is also such a brute force mechanics match up.
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1. No Jaedong fan would want to hear from him that his present form is stronger from the one in the past
2. If his apm is about the same, then by 'mechanics' do you mean reaction time? or precise clicks?
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The biggest problem they are ''old'' u cant to compare a 20++ years old peaople with a 30++ years old people. Overall JD achieved more than Soulkey even in SC2 way more money what is matter a lot of course. Talking nowadays when they are old and family,friends,girlfriends no mitovation time and etc ( Bisu non stop mapple defense and etc ) we will really true image who is the best, idk :D btw Soulkey lost so many moneys if i know correctly and he is not a popular streamer like JD,Bisu,Flash and etc so probably he was the most motivated pro these days for winning ASL. JD also +2 years old tha SK what is after 30 matter i think so.
So JaeDong for me 
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Jaedong always seemed very motivated to me.
Also, Bisu health issues, almost 2 months without streams 
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On February 01 2025 00:37 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2025 23:22 Souden wrote:
JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too! All great, but there are also many streams were pros (incl Flash) explain that in StarCraft the nr. 1 skill that is most impactful on win rate is... decision making. So all these flashy moves are important, but not making JD a better overall player. Maybe in ZvZ, but that is also such a brute force mechanics match up.
100% agree. mechanics matter, but matter nowhere near as much as decision making and timings.
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On February 01 2025 01:22 Bonyth wrote:Jaedong always seemed very motivated to me. Also, Bisu health issues, almost 2 months without streams
does he have wrists issues too?
for me too, but it could easily be that he only played 8 hours a day while SK played 12hours. not the same when was programming house and everyone did the same thing but who knows.
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On February 01 2025 01:26 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 00:37 kogeT wrote:On January 31 2025 23:22 Souden wrote:
JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too! All great, but there are also many streams were pros (incl Flash) explain that in StarCraft the nr. 1 skill that is most impactful on win rate is... decision making. So all these flashy moves are important, but not making JD a better overall player. Maybe in ZvZ, but that is also such a brute force mechanics match up. 100% agree. mechanics matter, but matter nowhere near as much as decision making and timings.
no, both very important one does not exist without the other
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On January 31 2025 23:22 Souden wrote:
JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too!
I would love to see this
I'm inspired by this thread to go rewatch some "peak" kespa era games from JD, zero, effort, flash, and light (which I would say is between 2010 and the end of 2011 Jinair OSL? That final season didn't feel as good as it was clear some players were playing more SC2 than BW, not to mention the dissolution of several teams).
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On February 01 2025 01:26 sas.Sziky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 01:22 Bonyth wrote:Jaedong always seemed very motivated to me. Also, Bisu health issues, almost 2 months without streams does he have wrists issues too? for me too, but it could easily be that he only played 8 hours a day while SK played 12hours. not the same when was programming house and everyone did the same thing but who knows.
Most pros and players dont take pre-emptive care for their wrist and hands. Doing daily wrist stretches will prevent issues fro emerging by keeping the carpal tunnel open and relaxed. It will also keep the muscles of the forearm that control the fingers relaxed and healthy. In some cases doing these exercises can completely take away the pain, or at least allevaiate some of the pain.
"The carpal tunnel is a narrow passageway in the wrist, located on the palm side of the hand. It is formed by the small bones of the wrist (carpal bones) and a strong band of connective tissue called the transverse carpal ligament.
Inside the carpal tunnel, several structures pass through, including:
The median nerve, which controls sensation and movement in parts of the hand.
Nine flexor tendons, which help bend the fingers and thumb."
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On February 01 2025 01:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2025 01:26 sas.Sziky wrote:On February 01 2025 01:22 Bonyth wrote:Jaedong always seemed very motivated to me. Also, Bisu health issues, almost 2 months without streams does he have wrists issues too? for me too, but it could easily be that he only played 8 hours a day while SK played 12hours. not the same when was programming house and everyone did the same thing but who knows. Most pros and players dont take pre-emptive care for their wrist and hands. Doing daily wrist stretches will prevent issues fro emerging by keeping the carpal tunnel open and relaxed. It will also keep the muscles of the forearm that control the fingers relaxed and healthy. In some cases doing these exercises can completely take away the pain, or at least allevaiate some of the pain. "The carpal tunnel is a narrow passageway in the wrist, located on the palm side of the hand. It is formed by the small bones of the wrist (carpal bones) and a strong band of connective tissue called the transverse carpal ligament. Inside the carpal tunnel, several structures pass through, including: The median nerve, which controls sensation and movement in parts of the hand. Nine flexor tendons, which help bend the fingers and thumb."
ya i agree.
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On February 01 2025 01:29 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2025 23:22 Souden wrote:
JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too! I would love to see this I'm inspired by this thread to go rewatch some "peak" kespa era games from JD, zero, effort, flash, and light (which I would say is between 2010 and the end of 2011 Jinair OSL? That final season didn't feel as good as it was clear some players were playing more SC2 than BW, not to mention the dissolution of several teams).
All we have from peak Jaedong I believe is his fpvod from 2009 WCG vs Stork and Bisu on youtube. The game vs Stork is incredible on the mech level and his ling hydra lurker control so yummy. To me the difference is flagrant especially on the multi-task level, map awareness and responsivess. But anyway, judge for yourself, aside of that, let's ask Soulkey if he would trade his brood war career with Jaedong or not (lol).
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On February 01 2025 00:37 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2025 23:22 Souden wrote:
JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too! All great, but there are also many streams were pros (incl Flash) explain that in StarCraft the nr. 1 skill that is most impactful on win rate is... decision making. So all these flashy moves are important, but not making JD a better overall player. Maybe in ZvZ, but that is also such a brute force mechanics match up.
This is the whole discussion though. If you gave peak Jaedong (or anyone really) a bit of time to adjust to the current meta, close the knowledge gap (not only strategy, but movement of some units etc. got also refined/discovered), there would be no second guessing. To me, when I say the pros in the Kespa days were "better", I never meant that a pro with a the knowledge from back then would win vs a pro with the knowledge from now. That would be silly tbh because the knowledge gap that has been developed since Kespa days is almost entirely community-based and _not_ an individual skill increase. I say almost, because some players have obviously improved their general understanding and decision making of the game since then but most of the knowledge gain has been a community effort with everyone benefitting from it and adapting.
Remarks by Flash, Zero and Jaedong (those have been mentioned in this thread) follow this logic. They say their former selves where mechanically superior but they would need some time to adapt and acquire all the new knowledge. When their knowledge would be on par with pros from the current scene, then their superior mechanics would make the difference.
On February 01 2025 00:42 Bonyth wrote:
2. If his apm is about the same, then by 'mechanics' do you mean reaction time? or precise clicks?
Yes, reaction time, precise clicks (i.e. effective apm), multitasking/anticipation. It's more than just raw APM. E.g. with Jaedong, at his peak he barely ever missed drops on the mini map, regardless of how wild the game was at that moment. This is a skill that certainly has suffered since then.
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Saying Soulkey is the zerg goat is like saying Serral is the SC2 goat.
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EPT
