EPTWho do you think had the higher peak as a Zerg player: Jaedong or Soulkey?
Jaedong insane mechanics in KeSpa era or Soulkey insane gaming sense crushing ASL right? Or maybe the Maestro SaviOr?
Lets break this down!
Zerg GOAT. Soulkey vs Jaedong
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StarCraftExplained
14 Posts
Who do you think had the higher peak as a Zerg player: Jaedong or Soulkey? Jaedong insane mechanics in KeSpa era or Soulkey insane gaming sense crushing ASL right? Or maybe the Maestro SaviOr? Lets break this down! | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1693 Posts
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1711 Posts
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Freezard
Sweden1019 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
It has also been said by many pros, with current game knowledge they would win 100% of games vs "peak kespa pros". That argument is enough. A similar argument can be made about some sports, for example hammer throw, rowing etc. had their peak popularity in the past, with more people trying, more competitiveness. But the world records are being broken now, for reasons like better knowledge, technical development etc. So would you say that people of the past were the real deal..? It is a similar example but just more measurable. | ||
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MineraIs
United States846 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19320 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1693 Posts
On January 29 2025 19:10 kogeT wrote: It has also been said by many pros, with current game knowledge they would win 100% of games vs "peak kespa pros". That argument is enough. There was a translated video from Zero posted years ago on TL with a similar debate, Zero was very straightforward about it. Acknowledging that strategically the game improved but as a player they were much less performant with a volume practice too low to even compare, adding that even if they would be outdated on the strat aspect kespa players would quickly adapt and it would be the end of it, and I don't think we are talking about years of adaptation here. So assuming they would win 100% of games vs peak kespa pro (which I highly doubt for mirror matches but that's all speculation from my part), the question is for how long they would win? 3 months? 6 months at best? Regardless that is beside the point of this thread, the pool players now is too small with little incentive for winning, it is an entirely different eco-system, the only reason why you could see players like Soulkey shines nowadays is exactly because it is not the Kespa era anymore. | ||
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quaristice
114 Posts
it's was an illusion because us the foreigners were worse at the game so their execution seemed more magical. and also the skill differentials were larger between players so when someone was outplaying someone, it looked so much fancier than any modern player gets to look | ||
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Bonyth
Poland596 Posts
On January 29 2025 20:44 iFU.pauline wrote: There was a translated video from Zero posted years ago on TL with a similar debate, Zero was very straightforward about it. Acknowledging that strategically the game improved but as a player they were much less performant with a volume practice too low to even compare, adding that even if they would be outdated on the strat aspect kespa players would quickly adapt and it would be the end of it, and I don't think we are talking about years of adaptation here. So assuming they would win 100% of games vs peak kespa pro (which I highly doubt for mirror matches but that's all speculation from my part), the question is for how long they would win? 3 months? 6 months at best? Regardless that is beside the point of this thread, the pool players now is too small with little incentive for winning, it is an entirely different eco-system, the only reason why you could see players like Soulkey shines nowadays is exactly because it is not the Kespa era anymore. If learning process was so easy, then it wouldn't take so long for people to rank up from their ranks. | ||
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sertas
Sweden890 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1693 Posts
On January 29 2025 20:52 Bonyth wrote: If learning process was so easy, then it wouldn't take so long for people to rank up from their ranks. For a game that is cognitively so demanding as bw, I am confident that a younger version of yourself in a pro team training twice as more will quickly take over your current self despite the intial knowledge gap. | ||
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quaristice
114 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1693 Posts
On January 29 2025 21:17 quaristice wrote: it's just straight up bad for you, psychologically and physically both. it's beyond diminishing returns, it actively makes you worse at the thing you are practicing for two reasons. the first is that you wear out your ability that you are practicing in the first place. the second is that you literally need the rest in order to improve. muscles grow not when you work out, but when you rest afterward (as a result of working out). and on the mental side, realizations and creativity happen more freely when you are not directly in front of the thing. there is a wealth of research showing this going back decades. the 12 hours practice is just bullshit, and if it worked you would see some people doing it now and getting results, but nobody does. I don't know about the wealth of reseach your are talking about, do you mind providing references? Bellow is the thread talking about this topic, unfortunately the Zero video is not available anymore. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/551041-how-current-streamers-compare-to-past-progamers Also, Zero explicitly stated that when he switched from 30 to 20 games a day, he instantly noticed a drop in skill which doesn't align with your wealth of research. | ||
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quaristice
114 Posts
On January 29 2025 21:25 iFU.pauline wrote: I don't know about the wealth of reseach your are talking about, do you mind providing references? Bellow is the thread talking about this topic, unfortunately the Zero video is not available anymore. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/551041-how-current-streamers-compare-to-past-progamers Also, Zero explicitly stated that when he switched from 30 to 20 games a day, he instantly noticed a drop in skill which doesn't align with your wealth of research. i'm not in a situation atm where i can start pulling up papers but look up the terms like "overtraining syndrome", "burnout", etc. as far as 30 to 20 games, that's actually pretty different https://jackyvso.github.io/Starcraft/#A9 (i had this tab open still) shows that a zerg player's average games are going to be if we take the average of all the matchups roughly 12.7 minutes and then add say on average 4 minutes for ladder queuing and other stuff so 16.7 minutes. 16.7 times 30 games is 501 minutes. 501 minutes divided by 60 is still only 8.35 hours, not 12, which is a world of difference | ||
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Bonyth
Poland596 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8588 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
On January 29 2025 20:44 iFU.pauline wrote: There was a translated video from Zero posted years ago on TL with a similar debate, Zero was very straightforward about it. Acknowledging that strategically the game improved but as a player they were much less performant with a volume practice too low to even compare, adding that even if they would be outdated on the strat aspect kespa players would quickly adapt and it would be the end of it, and I don't think we are talking about years of adaptation here. So assuming they would win 100% of games vs peak kespa pro (which I highly doubt for mirror matches but that's all speculation from my part), the question is for how long they would win? 3 months? 6 months at best? Regardless that is beside the point of this thread, the pool players now is too small with little incentive for winning, it is an entirely different eco-system, the only reason why you could see players like Soulkey shines nowadays is exactly because it is not the Kespa era anymore. Yes, but you are talking the "if...". We are here answering the OP question "Who do you think had the higher peak as a Zerg player", meaning comparing current players to past players. Current players are overall better players, and if matched against their own self they would dominate with current knowledge/mechanics. Anything beyond that point is speculation. I also agree to quaristice point about watching 2008-2012 vods. There is a lot of eye sore comparing to current standards, for many reasons. It is extreamly rare to see that with current (top) players. | ||
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Miragee
8652 Posts
On January 29 2025 20:44 iFU.pauline wrote: There was a translated video from Zero posted years ago on TL with a similar debate, Zero was very straightforward about it. Acknowledging that strategically the game improved but as a player they were much less performant with a volume practice too low to even compare, adding that even if they would be outdated on the strat aspect kespa players would quickly adapt and it would be the end of it, and I don't think we are talking about years of adaptation here. So assuming they would win 100% of games vs peak kespa pro (which I highly doubt for mirror matches but that's all speculation from my part), the question is for how long they would win? 3 months? 6 months at best? Regardless that is beside the point of this thread, the pool players now is too small with little incentive for winning, it is an entirely different eco-system, the only reason why you could see players like Soulkey shines nowadays is exactly because it is not the Kespa era anymore. Flash said something along the lines of it would take it would take his old kespa peak self about 2 weeks to adapt and then he would never lose a game against his current self again. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
On January 29 2025 17:01 iFU.pauline wrote: KesPa era was way more competitive than ASL, it is not even comparable, now ex-pro are old and fat just fucking around with making a living more a priority than winning. Who cares what Soulkey does, everybody has retired from the game anyway. It is like saying, am I the goat of a country where no one is left playing? But following that logic no one should care what Serral does in SC2 either, since pro scene there is mostly dead, too? Yet people praise him. | ||
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Ideas
United States8167 Posts
On January 30 2025 02:37 Miragee wrote: Flash said something along the lines of it would take it would take his old kespa peak self about 2 weeks to adapt and then he would never lose a game against his current self again. That's somewhat particularly specific to him given his wrists injuries. But yea if there was still a thriving pro-house scene like kespa (ideally something healthier than that though) where young kids were grinding away nonstop at BW with couches etc there's no doubt that we'd have several new crops of players that would have surpassed the current players we have right now already. Instead they are playing SC2 or League or something else though. Even with the stamina, speed and dedication of teenage youth, it still takes 1000s of hours of practice to get to where current pros are. That's why so few amateurs years younger can even come close to them. | ||
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Ideas
United States8167 Posts
On January 29 2025 17:54 Freezard wrote: Soulkey has godlike macro and game knowledge but there's nothing as powerful as muta micro, and Jaedong had the best there ever was (along with best ling micro), so I'm going to say him. Honestly when I look back on old kespa jaedong games, his muta micro isn't nearly as impressive and current pros. It might be due to higher turn rate brought by remastered today though? But the evolution of muta micro tactics and counter muta tactics have evolved SO MUCH in the last 12 years it's crazy. If you plopped any top zerg from today (JD, zero, soulkey, soma) into 2010-2012 kespa they would absolutely destroy every terran with just mutas. Zergs today almost always fend off big bio balls with JUST a group of mutas micro'd well, which is just something they never really did back in kespa days (instead they would only harass untill lurkers/sunkens were out). Modern terrans are so much better at controlling their bio groups vs mutas as well, and optimizing turret placements. I'm not taking anything away from kespa JD, he was amazing and soo good at muta control. But just saying that the strategy and control has gotten better by players on both sides by so much in the last 12 years. | ||
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Miragee
8652 Posts
On January 30 2025 03:56 SiarX wrote: But following that logic no one should care what Serral does in SC2 either, since pro scene there is mostly dead, too? Yet people praise him. Take a look at the SC2 GOAT thread and they are having this exact discussion about Serral. On January 30 2025 04:01 Ideas wrote: That's somewhat particularly specific to him given his wrists injuries. But yea if there was still a thriving pro-house scene like kespa (ideally something healthier than that though) where young kids were grinding away nonstop at BW with couches etc there's no doubt that we'd have several new crops of players that would have surpassed the current players we have right now already. Instead they are playing SC2 or League or something else though. Even with the stamina, speed and dedication of teenage youth, it still takes 1000s of hours of practice to get to where current pros are. That's why so few amateurs years younger can even come close to them. I'm fairly sure he wasn't talking about wrist injuries but his mechanical prowess vs the game knowledge that has evolved since then. I wouldn't take the "2 weeks" statement at face value but a statement like that from someone who has arguable the best game knowledge out of any BW player ever surely has some weight, at least to me. On January 30 2025 04:09 Ideas wrote: Honestly when I look back on old kespa jaedong games, his muta micro isn't nearly as impressive and current pros. It might be due to higher turn rate brought by remastered today though? But the evolution of muta micro tactics and counter muta tactics have evolved SO MUCH in the last 12 years it's crazy. If you plopped any top zerg from today (JD, zero, soulkey, soma) into 2010-2012 kespa they would absolutely destroy every terran with just mutas. Zergs today almost always fend off big bio balls with JUST a group of mutas micro'd well, which is just something they never really did back in kespa days (instead they would only harass untill lurkers/sunkens were out). Modern terrans are so much better at controlling their bio groups vs mutas as well, and optimizing turret placements. I'm not taking anything away from kespa JD, he was amazing and soo good at muta control. But just saying that the strategy and control has gotten better by players on both sides by so much in the last 12 years. Turn-rate plays a role I think. But I would also argue that lower multitasking of current players plays a role. This is my personal observation and I might be wrong of course but I feel like players today are not as quick in their response on their M&M anymore. Muta micro gets that much easier if the terran only slacks for a fraction of a second on stim or M&M movement. This is also true for how they move across the map. One of the main reasons why Flash's M&M (and of some other players such as Light) were almost never stopped by a group of mutas, was how quickly they moved across the map. Staying on top of your M&M with stim, anticipation moves against mutas, target firing while keeping up with your macro takes some serious multitasking and decisive acting. Some of that has been lost in the ASL era and it makes it much easier for a zerg to pick appart M&M with mutas. | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1019 Posts
On January 30 2025 04:09 Ideas wrote: If you plopped any top zerg from today (JD, zero, soulkey, soma) into 2010-2012 kespa they would absolutely destroy every terran with just mutas. OK then, someone ask an AI to make a game with 2025 JD vs 2010 Light and let's see who gets destroyed. Anyway, to easier see the difference you should watch ZvZ games instead since that matchup is entirely micro based. JD's control nowadays is depressing to say the least, and it's not just him. Zergs can barely kill scourges anymore without fumbling their mutas, and lings are bleeding off to the left and right. JD dominated ZvZ with his 80% win rate over hundreds of games for a reason, controlling individual lings like a machine and he would almost never lose a muta war. Today he's at what, 30%? And it's not because the strategies evolved and people are doing proxy 11 hatch into 12 hatches, or because he's facing stronger ZvZ players. He's just far from his peak and he has said that himself in interviews multiple times. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1196 Posts
But scientific studies have also shown that it doesn't always have to be actually playing to improve at playing an instrument, or a sport. There is something called Phantom Practice where an expert individual can continue to improve without actually playing their instrument, or engaging in their sport. They can improve purely through visualization methods. There's a famous case in the professional music industry where fusion-jazz drummer Larnell Lewis learned to play an entire album by the Band Snarky Puppy on a plane flight from New York to Amsterdam through visualization. Once arrived he had to immediately jump into recording to fill in for a drummer that had Visa issues. It was a legitimately legendary recording. Age specifically also does not affect fine motor neurons all that much until the late 40s, which is an argument many throw around to claim players are worse because they are older. It is specifically the large muscle's motor neurons intended for larger movements that start to degrade starting the mid 30s. But we use none of the large muscle's motor neurons in Starcraft. It is all fine motor neurons that are at work. Reaction speed however, does gradually start to decline in the late 20s, but science has shown the decrease is almost unnoticeable until the early 40s. Well trained individuals can even slow down the process of loss of reflex speed. In addition the importance of reflex speed is HIGHLY OVERSTATED in Starcraft. It is actually one of the few games where reaction speed is not as important as in shooters or fighter games. And even in Fighter games we see 30+ year olds still winning championships. I've more or less kept track of pro player activity on a daily basis and roughly know how active most pros are. Many I often hear from people here to not be active at all, are actually much more active than people think. They are also often much more cerebral players who seem to focus a lot more on thinking about the game than playing the game. There are PLENTY of players who grind multiple hundreds of ladder games for mechanics, and over a hundred documented games on Eloboard, and also non-documented games every month, yet they are rarely the people at the top. Its all about "How" they prepare, not about "how much". But to cycle back to the start of my post. Not practicing will after X amount of time lead to degradation of skill. Practicing some will for most prevent degradation but not facilitate growth. Higher volume quality practice will lead to growth. High volume low quality practice likely won't result in meaningful growth because it often just reinforces existing behavior. | ||
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lemmata
468 Posts
On January 30 2025 09:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I don't think the "we were better in kespa days" holds as much truth as the players themselves think it does. The KeSPA era is overrated in several dimensions, some of which are probably captured by your arguments, although I have other reasons as well. On other hand, there is one HUGE reason why the KeSPA era had much tougher competition than the current era. The KeSPA era had a constant stream of new talent coming into an already much larger player pool. For putting achievements in context, this is the end of the argument. As for who would win in a Space Jam style match for the survival of humanity, such time travel questions are fun but meaningless because each person applies his own what-ifs to the thought experiment. | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1488 Posts
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
I also think that the notion that there is just one GOAT is a fallacy. It seems logical at first glance that there has to be just one ("One has to be the greatest, right? That's what greatest means.") but that's just our thinking, our language fooling us. + Show Spoiler + (We force our concept of a superlative onto reality. Further reading: Kant or Wittgenstein etc.) All this "who's the one GOAT" is banter for our amusement. + Show Spoiler + Flash is the only real GOAT btw. | ||
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Sorusaba
295 Posts
Jaedong had a magic and an awe about him. Soulkey is the peak of modernized, sophisticated zerg play, but I like my tinted glasses and I always loved the vibe that JD brought. The death-stare and impeccable intuition and winning through rage and sheer force of will against a bad coinflip in the mirror or the most meticulously crafted terran push. | ||
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Sorry, Bisu stans. Not even close. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1693 Posts
On January 29 2025 21:54 Bonyth wrote: Side note: if a progamer said something, it doesn't have to be the absolute truth I agree with that statement, it is just that the arguments put forward to me are not valid to contradict Zero's feedback as an ex-pro. Since you were bringing up the time it takes to level up, I would add that once the knowledge is recorded, a learner doesn't have to go through all the grinding process of tries and fails to generate that knowledge, he can copy and reproduce it just like a new mathematic formulae. And with the volume of practice and pro environment they had back in the day, that process would be "quick" as stated by ZerO. This is how I understood it. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On January 30 2025 16:59 jinjin5000 wrote: There's so much discussion about bonjwa and GOATs on foreign side when in Korean side, it's mostly dismissal along lines of "it doesn't count because there's much less competition and new blood" This really is it. Like many have said, the new players will generally evolve to be better than the old players in an active sport&esport. What makes someone great is winning and staying at the top despite hordes of players coming to take your job, because it implies that you are also constantly evolving your game and not falling off. If it's always the same people playing each other, of course the ones that win will likely win the next tournaments or competitions too. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
On January 30 2025 20:30 Akio wrote: This really is it. Like many have said, the new players will generally evolve to be better than the old players in an active sport&esport. What makes someone great is winning and staying at the top despite hordes of players coming to take your job, because it implies that you are also constantly evolving your game and not falling off. If it's always the same people playing each other, of course the ones that win will likely win the next tournaments or competitions too. All good, but the topic is not about "if younger players could catch up to current pros", but about "higher peak as a Zerg player". In my view, there should be no debate that current Soulkey (and other pros) are on overall way higher level/peak than Kespa players. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6829 Posts
On January 30 2025 21:51 kogeT wrote: All good, but the topic is not about "if younger players could catch up to current pros", but about "higher peak as a Zerg player". In my view, there should be no debate that current Soulkey (and other pros) are on overall way higher level/peak than Kespa players. Higher Peak is different than goat tho. There are right now 5 zerg players that are better than past Jaedong. Soma Queen Effort Soulkey Hero In football Ronaldinho is proly the highest peak any football player reached. Is him in the goat list ? Nope. Is Soulkey the player with the highest peak ? well in zvt and zvp maybe. in zvz no. On top of that in a less competitive scene is really hard to call him the goat over Jaedong. Im pretty sure every Korean respect way more Jd than Soulkey. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
On January 30 2025 23:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Higher Peak is different than goat tho. There are right now 5 zerg players that are better than past Jaedong. Soma Queen Effort Soulkey Hero In football Ronaldinho is proly the highest peak any football player reached. Is him in the goat list ? Nope. Is Soulkey the player with the highest peak ? well in zvt and zvp maybe. in zvz no. On top of that in a less competitive scene is really hard to call him the goat over Jaedong. Im pretty sure every Korean respect way more Jd than Soulkey. What about Savior, is he zerg GOAT then? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6829 Posts
The goat of matchfixing | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8839 Posts
a goat discussion can only be had by putting jd vs savior, which imo jd still takes anyway. if the question was phrased, "would current soulkey beat kespa jd in a one off bo3/5?", the answer is most likely yes. the question of whether the current ex pros are better at starcraft now compared to the kespa days has been put to them multiple times and the answer has been largely the same regardless of who the question was asked to. the ex pros' understanding of the game is better now. but their mechanical ability is objectively worse, and if their kespa versions were given time, they would overcome the slight difference in theory through sheer mechanical supremacy. both flash and queen have specifically placed importance on the difference in mechanical ability and how that holds greater weight than the slight advantage they currently have in superior game understanding. soulkey is top in an era where the players are already performing at a level which is not their theoretical maximum. the players are either too old to really push their mechanics, or lack the competitive drive to reach the top. | ||
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Kraekkling
638 Posts
I think it's clear that the level of games we see today is overall higher than what we saw in the past. I'd say Flash/JD/Bisu during their prime era were at something like 95/94/93. But the top 10 player average was at something like 85. I feel like these 3 were more dominant during their era compared to the rest of the field, than SK currently is. I'd say the TBLS era was the most contested of all bw periods and JD at that time was clearly the best Zerg player, so he deserves respect for being the best when it mattered the most. Last, Savior. I'd put him at 85 during his prime, and the top 10 average back then at 70. Basically everyone was much worse which made Savior stand out way more. | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1019 Posts
On January 31 2025 02:42 Kraekkling wrote: Let's assume that SK is the current best player and set his power rating at 100. Further let's say the current top 10 players have an average rating of 95. I think it's clear that the level of games we see today is overall higher than what we saw in the past. If anything, you should put Flash at 100 and the top 10 players at around 70. It was obvious when Flash played that the level is way lower today since he could roll over people like nothing. The motivation to compete and be the best isn't there anymore, people would rather be big and funny streamers, and there's not much new blood. | ||
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
Young players must practice extreme hours to catch up. Meanwhile we had players that were dominate when players did practice extreme hours. There were also hundreds of players competing at that time. JD was the best zerg in the most competitive era, that didn't have 2 decades of meta. JD had incredible mechanics that most could not compete against. We have the Knowledge era vs the Competitive era. I will have to give GOAT to JD, because there were more people trying to be the best then. People were also practicing longer. We still need to give Soulkey a nod for competing in an era where you need to have put the time in, and have a lot of knowledge to succeed. If somehow this game had its competitive base restored to KeSPA era, I believe a young player that practices 13 hours a day would be the best instead. While JD was that player. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8588 Posts
On January 30 2025 19:15 Highgamer wrote: I think JD would definitelly be my pick for the COAT, the cutest of all time. + Show Spoiler + Sorry, Bisu stans. Not even close. Agree 100 %  | ||
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Souden
50 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
On January 31 2025 23:22 Souden wrote: JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too! All great, but there are also many streams were pros (incl Flash) explain that in StarCraft the nr. 1 skill that is most impactful on win rate is... decision making. So all these flashy moves are important, but not making JD a better overall player. Maybe in ZvZ, but that is also such a brute force mechanics match up. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland596 Posts
2. If his apm is about the same, then by 'mechanics' do you mean reaction time? or precise clicks? | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary334 Posts
So JaeDong for me | ||
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Bonyth
Poland596 Posts
Also, Bisu health issues, almost 2 months without streams  | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1196 Posts
On February 01 2025 00:37 kogeT wrote: All great, but there are also many streams were pros (incl Flash) explain that in StarCraft the nr. 1 skill that is most impactful on win rate is... decision making. So all these flashy moves are important, but not making JD a better overall player. Maybe in ZvZ, but that is also such a brute force mechanics match up. 100% agree. mechanics matter, but matter nowhere near as much as decision making and timings. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary334 Posts
On February 01 2025 01:22 Bonyth wrote: Jaedong always seemed very motivated to me. Also, Bisu health issues, almost 2 months without streams does he have wrists issues too? for me too, but it could easily be that he only played 8 hours a day while SK played 12hours. not the same when was programming house and everyone did the same thing but who knows. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary334 Posts
On February 01 2025 01:26 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: 100% agree. mechanics matter, but matter nowhere near as much as decision making and timings. no, both very important one does not exist without the other | ||
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Ideas
United States8167 Posts
On January 31 2025 23:22 Souden wrote: JD hands down. There was a stream I saw that current JD was watching his past self and explained how he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Where he threw a dark swarm ahead of time and not look back, sniped vessels with scourge, and build units all within split seconds. His mechanics was absolutely insane back in the days. If I could find the vod of that stream I would post it. Also, not to mention controlling to groups of mutalisks too! I would love to see this I'm inspired by this thread to go rewatch some "peak" kespa era games from JD, zero, effort, flash, and light (which I would say is between 2010 and the end of 2011 Jinair OSL? That final season didn't feel as good as it was clear some players were playing more SC2 than BW, not to mention the dissolution of several teams). | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1196 Posts
On February 01 2025 01:26 sas.Sziky wrote: does he have wrists issues too? for me too, but it could easily be that he only played 8 hours a day while SK played 12hours. not the same when was programming house and everyone did the same thing but who knows. Most pros and players dont take pre-emptive care for their wrist and hands. Doing daily wrist stretches will prevent issues fro emerging by keeping the carpal tunnel open and relaxed. It will also keep the muscles of the forearm that control the fingers relaxed and healthy. In some cases doing these exercises can completely take away the pain, or at least allevaiate some of the pain. "The carpal tunnel is a narrow passageway in the wrist, located on the palm side of the hand. It is formed by the small bones of the wrist (carpal bones) and a strong band of connective tissue called the transverse carpal ligament. Inside the carpal tunnel, several structures pass through, including: The median nerve, which controls sensation and movement in parts of the hand. Nine flexor tendons, which help bend the fingers and thumb." | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary334 Posts
On February 01 2025 01:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Most pros and players dont take pre-emptive care for their wrist and hands. Doing daily wrist stretches will prevent issues fro emerging by keeping the carpal tunnel open and relaxed. It will also keep the muscles of the forearm that control the fingers relaxed and healthy. In some cases doing these exercises can completely take away the pain, or at least allevaiate some of the pain. "The carpal tunnel is a narrow passageway in the wrist, located on the palm side of the hand. It is formed by the small bones of the wrist (carpal bones) and a strong band of connective tissue called the transverse carpal ligament. Inside the carpal tunnel, several structures pass through, including: The median nerve, which controls sensation and movement in parts of the hand. Nine flexor tendons, which help bend the fingers and thumb." ya i agree. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1693 Posts
On February 01 2025 01:29 Ideas wrote: I would love to see this I'm inspired by this thread to go rewatch some "peak" kespa era games from JD, zero, effort, flash, and light (which I would say is between 2010 and the end of 2011 Jinair OSL? That final season didn't feel as good as it was clear some players were playing more SC2 than BW, not to mention the dissolution of several teams). All we have from peak Jaedong I believe is his fpvod from 2009 WCG vs Stork and Bisu on youtube. The game vs Stork is incredible on the mech level and his ling hydra lurker control so yummy. To me the difference is flagrant especially on the multi-task level, map awareness and responsivess. But anyway, judge for yourself, aside of that, let's ask Soulkey if he would trade his brood war career with Jaedong or not (lol). | ||
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Miragee
8652 Posts
On February 01 2025 00:37 kogeT wrote: All great, but there are also many streams were pros (incl Flash) explain that in StarCraft the nr. 1 skill that is most impactful on win rate is... decision making. So all these flashy moves are important, but not making JD a better overall player. Maybe in ZvZ, but that is also such a brute force mechanics match up. This is the whole discussion though. If you gave peak Jaedong (or anyone really) a bit of time to adjust to the current meta, close the knowledge gap (not only strategy, but movement of some units etc. got also refined/discovered), there would be no second guessing. To me, when I say the pros in the Kespa days were "better", I never meant that a pro with a the knowledge from back then would win vs a pro with the knowledge from now. That would be silly tbh because the knowledge gap that has been developed since Kespa days is almost entirely community-based and _not_ an individual skill increase. I say almost, because some players have obviously improved their general understanding and decision making of the game since then but most of the knowledge gain has been a community effort with everyone benefitting from it and adapting. Remarks by Flash, Zero and Jaedong (those have been mentioned in this thread) follow this logic. They say their former selves where mechanically superior but they would need some time to adapt and acquire all the new knowledge. When their knowledge would be on par with pros from the current scene, then their superior mechanics would make the difference. On February 01 2025 00:42 Bonyth wrote: 2. If his apm is about the same, then by 'mechanics' do you mean reaction time? or precise clicks? Yes, reaction time, precise clicks (i.e. effective apm), multitasking/anticipation. It's more than just raw APM. E.g. with Jaedong, at his peak he barely ever missed drops on the mini map, regardless of how wild the game was at that moment. This is a skill that certainly has suffered since then. | ||
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Telephone
United States147 Posts
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