WCSHow Current Streamers Compare to Past Progamers
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jinjin5000
Korea (South)758 Posts
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Jealous
7684 Posts
Particularly the APM thing is something I've noticed myself - there is no way that 10 years later I have that much more APM than I did when I was younger and playing hours upon hours a day, while also accomplishing less in-game now lol. | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada999 Posts
On September 05 2019 13:51 Jealous wrote: Interesting stuff, this was definitely a popular conversation piece both here and on Discord. Nice to hear the perspective of someone who has been in both eras. Particularly the APM thing is something I've noticed myself - there is no way that 10 years later I have that much more APM than I did when I was younger and playing hours upon hours a day, while also accomplishing less in-game now lol. Remastered client includes all actions in the game while every old plugin disregards the first 2 minutes of the game. | ||
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prosatan
Romania4142 Posts
Just look at my boy Jaedong! he was much better back in the days | ||
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iFU.pauline
1240 Posts
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VioleTAK
Israel4159 Posts
I completely agree with Zero, the shape they were in back then was supreme. They were young, they trained non stop, they were beyond sharp, and they were constantly challenged from below. These days its so rare for new blood to reach their level and bring a challenge from below, back then you never knew which new punk was suddenly going to kick your ass, you had to stay on your guard and keep your shape at 100% always. Players like JD Flash Stork and Bisu are much wiser now, they have so much more experience, and the game has changed a lot. But give their old selves a month to adjust and current streamers wouldn't stand a chance. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore3332 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4582 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia11981 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1805 Posts
On September 05 2019 19:00 Dante08 wrote: Agree with Zero here, I specifically remember the reaction times were way faster back in the day. JD would scourge a dropship almost immediately after spotting it in the minimap. I seldom see that happen in pro games nowadays. I remember ZvZ was at a level where scourge was an obsolete unit, it got the point where if a pro had 3 mutas, a scourge was never going to land, PERIOD. And I'm talking every zerg pro was at that level (except Great). You see scourge used quite often now, a lot of focus is being spent on spreading them out and having them move while spread, but I'm really sure that would be useless during kespa era. | ||
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Ideas
United States7690 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina2792 Posts
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Chef
10711 Posts
In a sense, what's important is how competitive the scene is, meaning how many players are actually at a similar level. With Flash out of the picture, that's (in a sad way) almost an improvement for the whole scene. Well, depending on how much non-tournament stuff Flash plays in, and to what level he can play as he tries to take it easier on his injury. Even Sonic StarLeagues were fairly interesting, since a lot of the power players will still in SC2. We miss the KeSPA days because we know what we're lacking now, but judged on its own terms streaming SC is still interesting. It's hard to be secretive about builds and such though, since turning off your stream to practice them means forfeiting money you should be earning. That definitely impacts the entertainment value of matches before the later rounds of a tournament. But on the level of could streamers beat progamers... I don't understand why anybody thinks so. SC was always a game of seconds, reaction time is very important. I guess it depends on how you dream up the scenario, but it doesn't seem to me like progamers would be unaware of the meta if you carried them forward. If that's the stipulation, it's like saying can a progamer playing a map he's never played before beat a streamer who has been playing it for a year? Adds a bit of a wrench into what it means to be a pro, you know? | ||
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Ideas
United States7690 Posts
On September 06 2019 00:23 Chef wrote: In a sense, what's important is how competitive the scene is, meaning how many players are actually at a similar level. With Flash out of the picture, that's (in a sad way) almost an improvement for the whole scene. Well, depending on how much non-tournament stuff Flash plays in, and to what level he can play as he tries to take it easier on his injury. Yeah true, the KSL has always seemed very competitive (IE anyone in the Ro16 at least stood a shot at taking out anyone else, even if it was a small chance) without Flash ever competing in it. Flash is basically the only S-tier player of the era, and then like 8-10 players at an A tier (last, rain soulkey, etc although definitely on a gradient) and then another 10-20 at B teir (forgg, leta, jaehoon, etc). A teir players can take games off of flash but only twice did any of them beat him in a series since flash's first ASL losing to Last before he got fully back into god mode. Flash is the only one that still mechanically looks like a kespa progamer all the time (others definitely have their moments for sure though), and even then he's not as good as he was back then. | ||
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GGzerG
United States9446 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1148 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1015 Posts
i disagree with zero, i think current ex-pros would be better for a minimum of 6-12 months based on coaching staff. and even then it would still be 50-50 for another year, until the practice advantage catches up with the current ex-pros i think it boils down on how you define mechanics. macro: people now pretty much know how to mine each mineral patch as perfectly as possible; builds are more precisely "countered" than they were ever before with every itsy-bitsy adjustment being accounted for (Zero mentioned it himself, gas timing, ling count); we have 5+ bases "precise" builds now (Flash's TvZ +1 5 rax into 3 vessel late mech - 4 base vulture - 5 base tank + Larva's counter 4 base ultra/ling into 7 base) micro: in PvZ 1 gate expo, every zealot gets microed as good as possible, always targeting single zergling while moving out of lings or diving into any spot you cant get surrounded (minerals or certain chokes) while zerg has to constantly surround zealot and deny him diving into spots. multitask: this is a combination of a lot of factors, such as general knowledge when you can do what, game sense and how much time you have surplus to do extra things. stuff like keeping your enemy busy with small amount of units to buy more time than before, more poking with units to scout his units or to gain some extra attacks out before his units can position themself. it is hard to put this into perspective compared to 2010 but because of the increased knowledge of builds and limitations within each phase of the game, people should be able to multitask more effectively than before. there is more to muta/ling vs mnm multitask than just building stuff (macro) and moving units around while killing stray marines (micro). how your current situation is based on turrets/sunken, muta count (for example attacking mnm vs attacking terran base to kill fresh marines/scvs) where to place your units at what time to get the most out of them (for example attacking mnm from behind not from the front so he pushes away from your base when trying to fight the mutas, keeping muta/ling inbetween his army and his base stopping him from reinforcing) while using map features for advantages (ridges/chokes/ramps) unfortunately, 1 player notoriously bad at this was jaedong trying to beat terrans +1 5 rax with "low eco" 3 hatch muta/ling trading style. 5 rax quickly outprduces 3 hatch muta/ling. jaedongs goal was to cripple the marine count early on with lings and keep on killing marines with mutas. but the trades he was doing were equal at best, so 5 rax still overpowered him and he quickly lost. he was hardly using map features to his advantage and often attacked the mnm push from the front and not from behind. no amount of mechanics could save him, he needed to play smarter. and thats what people are doing now, they play smarter and overall better. but it has taken the majority of ex-progamers several years (2013-2016) to realize that. On September 05 2019 19:00 Dante08 wrote: Agree with Zero here, I specifically remember the reaction times were way faster back in the day. JD would scourge a dropship almost immediately after spotting it in the minimap. I seldom see that happen in pro games nowadays. back in the day, terran players were generally 3 tank 1 vessel pushing with a single drop ship followup which would generally just drop near cliff into your base (or fly in mineral line then drop). to stop that, you placed 4 scourge near your cliff. the scourges normally have enough time to catch the dropship before marines come out. your other army can deal with the front push. even if he carpet drops with 1 dropship before it gets killed, 1 group of lings easily clean up the remaining marines nowadays, terran 5 rax pushes you with instant 2-4 dropship followup, which would start carpet dropping the second they passed the cliff into your base. even with 8 scourge spread out near cliff, chances are high that you will not be able to kill the dropships before they dropped enough mnm to kill all scourge(terran scans cliff and avoids scourge).with 2-4 dropships, he can also drop a critical amount of marines, where zerglings will just start to melt. instead you need to place the scourge and 1-2 group of lings closer to your buildings in carpet dropping direction. that way you have lings fast enough under his marines while scourge kill the dropships regardless of which way he decides to carpet drop from. this dropship attack is way deadlier than back in the day and needs more defence allocated at your main and 3rd. essentially you have to make him drop you in order to reliably scourge the dropships, otherwise he will just try elsewhere. | ||
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Miragee
7353 Posts
On September 06 2019 02:30 Bakuryu wrote: back in the day, terran players were generally 3 tank 1 vessel pushing with a single drop ship followup which would generally just drop near cliff into your base (or fly in mineral line then drop). to stop that, you placed 4 scourge near your cliff. the scourges normally have enough time to catch the dropship before marines come out. your other army can deal with the front push. even if he carpet drops with 1 dropship before it gets killed, 1 group of lings easily clean up the remaining marines He wasn't talking about a particular push. Jaedong would snipe dropships throughout longer games as well. Remember when he played Baby and Baby tried to drop him like 18 times and not a single dropship survived long enough to get any damage done? That was also the time when Jaedong would immediately react to DTs attacking lings/drones... Yes, Jaedong was a madman in that regard but in general everyone was much sharper back then. All you say in your post is that knowledge, advanced build orders, unit counts etc. have evolved, yes. That's a natural occurrence. All those things have constantly been evolving since Starcraft came out. That doesn't mean the level of play is better now than it was back then. Give the players from back then the knowledge and builds from today and they would shred everything apart. The only thing I agree on is the point about playing smart. I think that was the only downside to the level of play back then. The rigid in house environment forced players into a way of thinking, basically automatism. Not many players came out as being creative or smart with a few exceptions. A lot of progamers played with what seemed like a tunnel-vision. | ||
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onlystar
United States778 Posts
this goes alongside of zeros view of general game theory these days... i just reject the view that if you have slight better mechanics and (e)apm you automatically just win vs the nowadays pros like a 10% (e)apm increase just does not get you there maybe if you deteriorated a lot 20/30% its would be problematic but for most pros its probably not even the case it just goes against the general consensus that competition is really fierce look at people like soma shining these days.. and what flash is preaching over his comeback since sc2 have to keep in mind zero (and any other streamer) is also making videos for the views with screaming titles thumbnails and substance on youtube these days.. however obviously teamhouses and A-B proteams &courage tournaments for progamer license it is fierce competition for top spots, training full-time results into the best of the best to make it..however sponbang is a thing still streamers trying to reach higher in getting better results/money/prices/viewerbase so its not like there are no rewards to improve like in the proleague days how they all line up is difficult to measure.. but to say blatantly old progamers would beat the new versions of them self is really reaching. | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada1805 Posts
On September 06 2019 04:31 Miragee wrote: A lot of progamers played with what seemed like a tunnel-vision. This is very true, practising 8+ hours a day, while very good for mechanics, is really bad for creativity. | ||
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