On September 06 2019 06:28 onlystar wrote: im skeptic about what zero is announcing here.. it does not sound that accurate to me(for some parts) , i dont want to go to deep into this because it is a lot of speculation but for instance if you hear flash take on this is its a lot different from his point of view he says if i would have known the /timings/builds/game knowledge i know at this moment i would not have lost a single starleague.
this goes alongside of zeros view of general game theory these days... i just reject the view that if you have slight better mechanics and (e)apm you automatically just win vs the nowadays pros like a 10% (e)apm increase just does not get you there maybe if you deteriorated a lot 20/30% its would be problematic but for most pros its probably not even the case it just goes against the general consensus that competition is really fierce look at people like soma shining these days.. and what flash is preaching over his comeback since sc2 have to keep in mind zero (and any other streamer) is also making videos for the views with screaming titles thumbnails and substance on youtube these days..
however obviously teamhouses and A-B proteams &courage tournaments for progamer license it is fierce competition for top spots, training full-time results into the best of the best to make it..however sponbang is a thing still streamers trying to reach higher in getting better results/money/prices/viewerbase so its not like there are no rewards to improve like in the proleague days how they all line up is difficult to measure.. but to say blatantly old progamers would beat the new versions of them self is really reaching.
Let me give you an example..
If bisu had the same mechanics as his prime self his 1 gateway zlot harrassment would wreck havoc on most zergs, snowballing into what he does best. Since his mechanics is subpar, he can't really do that. Every high level tactics/knowledge are supported by top tier mechanics. That's what BW is all about.
what are you saying here.. bisu is rusty as of now... 2year break before that he wrecked countless top zergs with that opening just before he left you want to give an example how important mechanics are? im not saying mechanics are not important...
the romantic in me doesn't love what zero's saying here, but i'd take his word over my own suspicions. part of this debate may also be player dependent, though. i'm really curious if other pros think the same thing, especially pros that have historically been weaker mechanically. i'm thinking of the more cerebral protosses like movie or snow.
someone on the other side of that coin (like light) would be interesting to hear from on this topic too.
if only we could somehow find out what the pros were saying about this...
I think what Zero states is just plain common sense. Of course if you play 30 games a day rather than 20 your mechanics will be more crisp, there should be no need to state this. And then - if you think actively about the game and timings you will develop in that direction, this is also to be expected. I mean - your progress will be where your efforts are going. If I understand the situation correctly from Zero's words, the KESPA players were expected to play 30 or more games per day, to be mechanically stellar. This would leave them with less time to actually think about the strategic part. And this is where the coaches would fill in the gap - to come up with new builds, new timings, map specific tactics. The player's aim would be to have the mechanical conditions, to be able to execute what his coach tells him to do. Of course if you have a JD or a Flash on your team you will stress his mechanical prowess even more, you want him to play the longer games where he can make less mistakes than opponents. With a healthy mix of cheese, yes, but still - you want him to be able to display his ability in the best manner. And nowadays players are supposed to train mechanics by themselves but also - to think about strategy, there are no coaches to do that for them. Thus it is logical that their mechanical skill will drop and seem subpar to their KESPA levels of execution.
I used to watch a lot old pro games for entertainment and less so for learning the game so I find it personally hard to compare mechanics in the past to now. That said, I do think what Zero said sounds reasonable to me. I remember watching Bisu vs Shine ASL Semis and thinking that his sair control was a lot worse than it used to be (there were times where he lost so many sairs to hydras because he reacted relatively slowly). I think Jaedong declined the most. So many of his tournament games involve failed cheese after which he falls too behind. Overall, I think most of the great players (except for FlaSh) have struggled to find their old form from the kespa days. In fairness, many players like Snow, Sharp, Rain and Last improved so it balances things out somewhat.
In a sense, what's important is how competitive the scene is, meaning how many players are actually at a similar level. With Flash out of the picture, that's (in a sad way) almost an improvement for the whole scene. Well, depending on how much non-tournament stuff Flash plays in, and to what level he can play as he tries to take it easier on his injury.
Yeah true, the KSL has always seemed very competitive (IE anyone in the Ro16 at least stood a shot at taking out anyone else, even if it was a small chance) without Flash ever competing in it.
Flash is basically the only S-tier player of the era, and then like 8-10 players at an A tier (last, rain soulkey, etc although definitely on a gradient) and then another 10-20 at B teir (forgg, leta, jaehoon, etc). A teir players can take games off of flash but only twice did any of them beat him in a series since flash's first ASL losing to Last before he got fully back into god mode.
Flash is the only one that still mechanically looks like a kespa progamer all the time (others definitely have their moments for sure though), and even then he's not as good as he was back then.
I would say Effort, Soulkey (before they left for the military) and Zero look very good mechanically as well although definitely not as good as they were previously. Even Flash said in a video previously that his skill level is not as high as before.
On September 06 2019 14:40 intrigue wrote: thanks for the translation, as always.
the romantic in me doesn't love what zero's saying here, but i'd take his word over my own suspicions. part of this debate may also be player dependent, though. i'm really curious if other pros think the same thing, especially pros that have historically been weaker mechanically. i'm thinking of the more cerebral protosses like movie or snow.
someone on the other side of that coin (like light) would be interesting to hear from on this topic too.
if only we could somehow find out what the pros were saying about this...
I think more time to craft and play strategies is also good. I remember Boxer or someone way back when saying that it was easier to bring a really inventive strategy every game back when they had a month to practice for each match, or something crazy like that. Then when they had so many games each week, it became harder. But the fact that you can't be secretive when your income depends on streaming is a huge wrench to the styles of players like Boxer, Nal_Ra and the descendants who followed their example.
I can't really agree with people who've said games were less creative in the KeSPA days. But I also don't know how to measure that or what they mean by that. I remember at least a few bonkers televised games being played every week in those days. We'll get something crazy once in awhile still, but apart from Shine's run not every week anymore. In any case, creative players still thrived in the KeSPA days. The real robots never really made it out of the b-team, it just wasn't enough to only have mechanics when everyone was practicing 8 hours or more.
somethings to keep in mind.. players like shuttle / snow / flash / mini / last improved a lot (gameplay wise and in results aswell) since the proleague days.
and its gonna sound harsh but some definitely lost skill or at least are less dominant than before ZerO is absolutely one of those underperforming in the post kespa era.
I thought it was pretty obvious that the kespa era has to be seen favorable when trying to gauge the overall level. Bw is a very mechanical game. We teach the noobs that they should focus on mechanics first and fancy strategy second.It's common knowledge that a mechanical advantage per usual is more important than a atrategical. Seems obvious the same is true for progamers and kespa pros were most likely stronger mechanically for the reasons explained by zero.
On September 07 2019 04:51 onlystar wrote: somethings to keep in mind.. players like shuttle / snow / flash / mini / last improved a lot (gameplay wise and in results aswell) since the proleague days.
and its gonna sound harsh but some definitely lost skill or at least are less dominant than before ZerO is absolutely one of those underperforming in the post kespa era.
Wait what? Flash was "God" against a deeper opponent pool, how are is results better now?
Snow was a newcomer on CJ A team and was employed as a PvT sniper, a matchup in which he excelled ever since the b-team days. His practice was probably focused on that. You cannot compare his overall performance back then to what it is now due to that fact alone.
Im not even going to touch on the others as there is no point.
Regardless of your perceived notion of strategy being more important or giving current players an advantage, please watch some 2009/2010 games and LR threads of people celebrating Flash being behind due to a BO or to an amazing rush in the beginning and then watch him win on sheer sense and mechanics alone. Having a cute BO for a new map is like having a sniper back in the days come up with something creative. Those were not guaranteed wins (even by mechanically better players).
Flash today would put up a fight based on his strategic depth but he would probably be the only one. And even then, im not sure if some A team randon player would not win based on sheer numbers and macro crushing moves alone. Even with a gigantic bias towards Flash starsense and hability to read and react on the fly I still firmly believe that.
Additionally, top pro's were not robots. They had coaches to help with builds but most of them would think about builds and would know how to prepare a build (watch the Old Boy show with Nal_Ra, Stats came up with builds, ForGG is given a quick run down of a potential build to theorize about and decide if applicable even if it was a P build, he is also said to be able to establish and creat timing attacks for everything, etc, thats not a robot).
obviously results did not apply to flash my friend.. he says he improved even after kespa days and knows more about the game timings/builds/theory etc.
mini is now seen as the best pvzer a the moment yes you can compare these and you can say that players improved its a fact.
snow developed even in the pvz matchup lately. i did not feel like going over these because it is general knowledge
On September 07 2019 07:38 onlystar wrote: obviously results did not apply to flash my friend.. he says he improved even after kespa days and knows more about the game timings/builds/theory etc.
mini is now seen as the best pvzer a the moment yes you can compare these and you can say that players improved its a fact.
snow developed even in the pvz matchup lately. i did not feel like going over these because it is general knowledge
That's partially because everyones mechanics have gone down the same amount so Snow doing better in PvZ is not only because his PvZ before was absolutely awful so the only way was up, but the top zergs are not doing as mechanically well in ZvP.
it is very unlikely all players are exact copies of each other and have deteriorated mechanically in the same way flash is prove of this.
so that statement is false by default
what zero is stating is a half-truth it certainly does not apply to everyone if zero would speak for himself his mechanics have declined, he is no longer as dominant as before even IF the rest of the playing field also are mechanically less gifted these days.
there are so many things to factor in here even the non-rational things like how we experience scr versus kespa days whe we where 10~15years younger with a completely different emotion like seeing the kespa days as the pinnacle of scbw is very common i would not fully disagree with this but its also blurring our vision like one poster here stated that every reaction was faster and more crisp in kespa era. (on TV proleague etc i can completely understand how one would get this sentiment when its being hyped casted by Koreans during a proleague final.) That is heavily up for debate this the different experience when being 10~15 years younger childhood days versus being an adult and the giant spectacle that proleague/osl/msl was this will easily over-romanticize ones point of view about the good old days .
On September 07 2019 04:51 onlystar wrote: somethings to keep in mind.. players like shuttle / snow / flash / mini / last improved a lot (gameplay wise and in results aswell) since the proleague days.
and its gonna sound harsh but some definitely lost skill or at least are less dominant than before ZerO is absolutely one of those underperforming in the post kespa era.
Wait what? Flash was "God" against a deeper opponent pool, how are is results better now?
Snow was a newcomer on CJ A team and was employed as a PvT sniper, a matchup in which he excelled ever since the b-team days. His practice was probably focused on that. You cannot compare his overall performance back then to what it is now due to that fact alone.
Im not even going to touch on the others as there is no point.
Regardless of your perceived notion of strategy being more important or giving current players an advantage, please watch some 2009/2010 games and LR threads of people celebrating Flash being behind due to a BO or to an amazing rush in the beginning and then watch him win on sheer sense and mechanics alone. Having a cute BO for a new map is like having a sniper back in the days come up with something creative. Those were not guaranteed wins (even by mechanically better players).
Flash today would put up a fight based on his strategic depth but he would probably be the only one. And even then, im not sure if some A team randon player would not win based on sheer numbers and macro crushing moves alone. Even with a gigantic bias towards Flash starsense and hability to read and react on the fly I still firmly believe that.
Additionally, top pro's were not robots. They had coaches to help with builds but most of them would think about builds and would know how to prepare a build (watch the Old Boy show with Nal_Ra, Stats came up with builds, ForGG is given a quick run down of a potential build to theorize about and decide if applicable even if it was a P build, he is also said to be able to establish and creat timing attacks for everything, etc, thats not a robot).
oh btw the flash claim is 100% false so there are countless of games where flash takes econ damage from rvr or being behind in tvp vs the likes of best who went for 12nexus cross-spots when going vult opening (you can not pressure cross-spots with marine/vult the protoss is ahead at this point) and he has to move heaven an earth to get even and eventually win in the late game.) all playing mechancily better than his opponent not by following up with a cheesey dropship/vult harass. to pull this of versus best macro-god in protoss is impressive. you can find vods on flashs youtube.
On September 07 2019 08:39 Highgamer wrote: Yet I bet today's Larva would kick B-teamer-Larva's ass to the moon.
I mean that isn't very fair to this argument, because Larva when he was a bteamer was good, but he wasn't as good as he was now. I think this argument from Larva only really affects A and S tier players of the past.
All the players now--except maybe larva-- are definitely less peak skill than they were before. We have to remember some of the less kespa prestigious were blooming: last, rush, mini were all in tving osl ro24 and beyond, and rain was in the 2011 skt proleague lineup.
Lets put it this way-- say you magically transported the 2011 hite/cj entus teamhouse (effort, horang2, hydra, leta, skyhigh, snow, rush, bbyong) and gave them a month to play on the maps with their teamhouse resources and have access to last season of asl/ksl vods. Assume they'd think the asl/ksl had the prestige or aura of OSL or MSL and kept morale for a month.
I'd think they would dominate spon matches and any bo3/bo5 except versus flash/bisu
The gap would be like the gap between air force ace and the rest of the kespa teams. Air force ace wins here and there but everyone knows they wont keep up or make deep runs in individual league
Motivation plays a huge role though too. The korean team houses burned everyone out whereas now streamers make their money streaming but...the houses would win in straight starcraft skill
Larva trained a lot when he started streaming and even if he is better as previously he is not that good compare to EffOrt. Also back in the day players were much better at rending their units cost effective. The way they would engage and trade. Take a look at replays not vod, nothing is left behind. The gap is as big as zero says it. Keep in mind pgm would train same map and mu for days. You don't see any streamers doing that today. What kind of super secret deep knowledge of the game you can have to overcome someone that has a better macro micro multitask, decision making and played the maps twice as more as you did? As zero said, all strategies existed back in the day, so where is the game changer that can't be easily dealt by old time pgm?
EPT
he says he improved even after kespa days and knows more about the game timings/builds/theory etc.
